RShara

Official Hemalurgy Chart!!!!!

48 posts in this topic

correct me if i'm wrong, but Inquisitors cant become truly fullborn. the temporal metals don't have enough bind points. they would need a total of 16 points in the body for that to work. unless the person you were starting with were already a full Mistborn or full feruchemist. 

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5 minutes ago, Raygun Ultra said:

correct me if i'm wrong, but Inquisitors cant become truly fullborn. the temporal metals don't have enough bind points. they would need a total of 16 points in the body for that to work. unless the person you were starting with were already a full Mistborn or full feruchemist. 

You are correct if only considering the Inquisitor bindpoints we're being shown. However, these are not all the bindpoints as there are apparently hundreds throughout the body.

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Are there any bind points that can be used for more than 1 group of metals?

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A steel linchpin is recommended to avoid the potential deadly side effects of the bestowal of four or more spikes.

What happens if you use a metal other than steel for the linchpin? Does it not work at all, or is it less effective than steel?

What's the small line by the linchpin?

Edited by MistCLOAKed Mountains
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Peter has edited his comment on the chart. He clarifies that he meant to say "Scadrial," not "Roshar" (duh), and he also says it's not from Khriss. Which reinforces my belief that it is a Final Empire document, created by the Lord Ruler specifically for the creation of Inquisitors.

 

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21 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Which reinforces my belief that it is a Final Empire document, created by the Lord Ruler specifically for the creation of Inquisitors.

Wasn't it supposed to be Spook's notebook in Era 2?

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47 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Wasn't it supposed to be Spook's notebook in Era 2?

Since it refers to refining atium and creating Inquisitors, that leads me to believe it was written during a time when they had access to atium and were creating Inquisitors. Which limits the people I could think of who could obtain that knowledge during that time period to Rashek (who had Ascended and gained a bunch of knowledge about the Metallic Arts) and Khriss (who has her ways of finding things out.)

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Just now, Pagerunner said:

Since it refers to refining atium and creating Inquisitors, that leads me to believe it was written during a time when they had access to atium and were creating Inquisitors. Which limits the people I could think of who could obtain that knowledge during that time period to Rashek (who had Ascended and gained a bunch of knowledge about the Metallic Arts) and Khriss (who has her ways of finding things out.)

Fair enough, but wouldn't Spook have asked Marsh and Harmony about that atium and the Inquisitor making process?

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3 hours ago, Invocation said:

Fair enough, but wouldn't Spook have asked Marsh and Harmony about that atium and the Inquisitor making process?

Given that Harmony disapproved of Spook's hemalurgy activities (probably saw the immediate future of many getting rekt because of the knowledge that got passed down from it) and Marsh doesn't seem the type that would share knowledge that involves obliterating and twisting people.

Probably not.

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3 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Given that Harmony disapproved of Spook's hemalurgy activities (probably saw the immediate future of many getting rekt because of the knowledge that got passed down from it) and Marsh doesn't seem the type that would share knowledge that involves obliterating and twisting people.

Probably not.

Fair.

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On ‎05‎.‎01‎.‎2019 at 3:49 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

Roshar?!?

The WoB was edited:

#1 Jan. 5, 2019 Share Copy

Phantine

Is this hemalurgy table also a speculative in-universe document (like how the RPG had atium spikes only stealing temporal, because that's what the steelies believed)?

Peter Ahlstrom

It is an in-world chart according to the knowledge of some people at a certain stage in the history of Scadrial. [Edit: not Roshar, sorry. Also it’s not Khriss.]

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Been a year or two since I was last here but my understanding from way back when was that hemalurgic spikes could steal multiple attributes from a person (assuming they had more than one attribute relevant to that spike's metal) but the restriction was that the spike will only grant whichever attribute was relevant to the bind point it is placed in. So if you used a bronze spike on a mistborn you would steal all their mental allomantic abilities (rioting, soothing, smoking and seeking) but you could only use that spike to grant one of them to someone else depending on where it was placed (the 4 mental powers having separate bind points).

If this is so then using a lerasium spike would have the same restriction, it can steal all the abilities but only grant whichever one is relevant to the bind point it is placed it. Making it a colossus waste of potential (like nuking Scrooge McDuck's money bin to hide that you stole $5 from it).

As no-one seems to have mentioned this I assume I've misunderstood somewhere or the rules changed when I wasn't paying attention?

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That is really interesting and the other day I was thinking about Hemalurgy. Just that Hemalurgy is a lot more complicated than Surgebinding and Allomancy. Those have a few defined ideas but this is more open ended, so I was wondering how much Brnadon had worked out. A decent amount it seems looking like this.

Also, this might not be the best place, but I have a theory on how Kelsier was resurrected. I have no idea how they might have put him into one or more spikes but what if the underlying body was a mistwraith? Kandra are mistwraiths given identity and sapience through their blessings but what if you put something more complicated in the spikes. Also he might be built around his original bones because I saw a WoB about those things still being around somewhere.

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So the steel lynchpin functions like anti-rejection medications in organ transplant recipients?  

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3 hours ago, Grytorm said:

Also he might be built around his original bones because I saw a WoB about those things still being around somewhere.

There was a WOB I saw a while back (can't find it now, sorry) that Kelsier is not using his original body, even counting the bones.

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

So the steel lynchpin functions like anti-rejection medications in organ transplant recipients?  

More like permanent sutures. Putting that many holes in a spiritweb and trying to shove other stuff in there is hard, and you can literally rip apart from what we've been told (mentally, most likely) and the steel spike brings extra fortitude in tying them all together. It doesn't work all the way, I'd say, judging from the way the spikes throb constantly, but it certainly makes that many spikes feasible while you remain sane.

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So steel spikes give one of the 4 physical allomancy powers depending on where they are placed.  The chest spike seems logical for Pewterarm/Thug powers, as Spook also got Pewter powers when he was impaled in the chest area, so that seems right.  Pewter making them strong enough to survive otherwise lethal spikings also makes sense.

The eyes are interesting though.  I wonder if the left and right eye grant different allomancy physical powers.  Steel Push on one side, Iron Pull on the other?  I wonder which one Kelsier has?  And I wonder if other spikes have different functions on left vs. right side of the body.

All inquisitors would also need a gold spike, which interestingly is dual purpose.  The gold spike both grants the ability to use Hybrid Feruchemy (gold in this case) and also the spike itself would work as a metalmind for storing health.  At least I think they all had gold spikes, it was remarked that they "rested" quite a bit, presumably charging their goldminds.

A bronze spike somewhere would be necessary for the Seeker abilities that are so essential in Inquisitors.

I'm guessing remaining inquisitor spikes were steel+bronze to grant the remaining physical+mental allomancer powers.  The Lord Ruler's inquisitors had 11 spikes though.  8 allomancy spikes + 1 gold spike + ?.  I wonder what the last two were.  Presumably not further feruchemy powers as the Lord Ruler feared the potential effects of compounding being used against him.  Could it be the more basic attribute stealing spikes like the kandra had (iron/tin/zinc/copper)?

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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

At least I think they all had gold spikes, it was remarked that they "rested" quite a bit, presumably charging their goldminds.

That is true, they did rest so often to charge their goldminds, and it's also the source of their legendary healing.

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I wonder what the last two were.  Presumably not further feruchemy powers as the Lord Ruler feared the potential effects of compounding being used against him.  Could it be the more basic attribute stealing spikes like the kandra had (iron/tin/zinc/copper)?

I would say one is Soothing and one might be F-bronze for wakefulness.

Edited by Invocation
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I remembered this chart existed but had never really studied it, then did a search for it from the Coppermind wikia to discover its source and canonicity (is that a word?)...

So this has never been published in an Ars Arcanum like compilation, it's only a pic on Reddit? But it seems to be a pic of something physically made. A one-off?

If it's confirmed by Brandon to be canonical, is that in-world canonical (i.e., "to the best of Khriss or some other scholar's knowledge") or full on WoB canonical ("For I, the creator of this universe, do say unto you, verily this is how it works, unless of course I change my mind before publishing it in something, and even then maybe I'll retcon it in a revised edition if I feel like it's absolutely necessary")?

It is interesting that an atium spike, the metal of Ruin used in the application of the power of Ruin, is a super flexible and powerful "skeleton key" that can "steal any power"...

But even more so that a lerasium spike, the metal of Preservation, seems even more powerful, in that it "steals all attributes". Why would lerasium be even more powerful than atium in the application of hemalurgy?

Well, first, what's the difference between a "power" and an "attribute" (such that a lerasium spike steals "all" attributes)?

And second... Perhaps the Preservation aspect kicks in when the spike "steals all attributes" but doesn't remove them from the donor?

This is where I really want to know the context of this chart, i.e., is this a diagram out of Brandon Sanderson's writing notes being shared with fans, or something meant to be in-world, perhaps found in Spook's little primer on hemalurgy? Because that would mean they not only knew about lerasium - which they did after Elend became Mistborn - but had some way to discover its hemalurgic effect, presumably via experiment since Kelsier didn't look into hemalurgy while Ascended (thus the need to have Spook help him investigate) and Sazed/Harmony disapproves...

Edited by robardin
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BRAAAAAAAIIIIIIIINNNNNNSSSSS.............................

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24 minutes ago, robardin said:

I remembered this chart existed but had never really studied it, then did a search for it from the Coppermind wikia to discover its source and canonicity (is that a word?)...

So this has never been published in an Ars Arcanum like compilation, it's only a pic on Reddit? But it seems to be a pic of something physically made. A one-off?

If it's confirmed by Brandon to be canonical, is that in-world canonical (i.e., "to the best of Khriss or some other scholar's knowledge") or full on WoB canonical ("For I, the creator of this universe, do say unto you, verily this is how it works, unless of course I change my mind before publishing it in something, and even then maybe I'll retcon it in a revised edition if I feel like it's absolutely necessary")?

It is interesting that an atium spike, the metal of Ruin used in the application of the power of Ruin, is a super flexible and powerful "skeleton key" that can "steal any power"...

But even more so that a lerasium spike, the metal of Preservation, seems even more powerful, in that it "steals all attributes". Why would lerasium be even more powerful than atium in the application of hemalurgy?

Well, first, what's the difference between a "power" and an "attribute" (such that a lerasium spike steals "all" attributes)?

And second... Perhaps the Preservation aspect kicks in when the spike "steals all attributes" but doesn't remove them from the donor?

This is where I really want to know the context of this chart, i.e., is this a diagram out of Brandon Sanderson's writing notes being shared with fans, or something meant to be in-world, perhaps found in Spook's little primer on hemalurgy? Because that would mean they not only knew about lerasium - which they did after Elend became Mistborn - but had some way to discover its hemalurgic effect, presumably via experiment since Kelsier didn't look into hemalurgy while Ascended (thus the need to have Spook help him investigate) and Sazed/Harmony disapproves...

In-World.

 

Phantine

Is this hemalurgy table also a speculative in-universe document (like how the RPG had atium spikes only stealing temporal, because that's what the steelies believed)?

Peter Ahlstrom

It is an in-world chart according to the knowledge of some people at a certain stage in the history of Scadrial. [Edit: not Roshar, sorry. Also it’s not Khriss.]

General Reddit 2019 (Jan. 5, 2019)

About Lerasium, we're not sure what Attributes should mean. It can be just human attributes (like strength, memories, etc.) or it can be anything from the hemalurgical table (which I find difficult). Still, it would not be strange if Lerasium is more powerful in Hemalurgy than Atium, even if the latter is Ruina's metal, Lerasium is much more invested.
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50 minutes ago, robardin said:

I remembered this chart existed but had never really studied it, then did a search for it from the Coppermind wikia to discover its source and canonicity (is that a word?)...

So this has never been published in an Ars Arcanum like compilation, it's only a pic on Reddit? But it seems to be a pic of something physically made. A one-off?

If it's confirmed by Brandon to be canonical, is that in-world canonical (i.e., "to the best of Khriss or some other scholar's knowledge") or full on WoB canonical ("For I, the creator of this universe, do say unto you, verily this is how it works, unless of course I change my mind before publishing it in something, and even then maybe I'll retcon it in a revised edition if I feel like it's absolutely necessary")?

...

This is where I really want to know the context of this chart, i.e., is this a diagram out of Brandon Sanderson's writing notes being shared with fans, or something meant to be in-world, perhaps found in Spook's little primer on hemalurgy? Because that would mean they not only knew about lerasium - which they did after Elend became Mistborn - but had some way to discover its hemalurgic effect, presumably via experiment since Kelsier didn't look into hemalurgy while Ascended (thus the need to have Spook help him investigate) and Sazed/Harmony disapproves...

It was released in the Hero of Ages leatherbound. There is a more in-depth poster version on the way. (If you compare the Allomancy and Feruchemy tables in the leatherbound to the poster versions, there's much less detail on the book versions, for space reasons.)

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ArgentSun

Hemalurgy table on the website when?

Isaac Stewart

The Hemalurgic Table almost didn't make it into the leatherbound of The Hero of Ages. As such, I feel that the version I did add is sort of a prototype to a much cooler, much better, probably a littler-bloodier version of the table that will be done for the art print. When the art for that art print is done, then we'll post a better version of the art. I don't want a high-res image of the prototype version floating around the internet, if that makes sense. It's on my list of things to do, and I suspect I'll get around to it in the next year or so. Thanks for asking!

ArgentSun

OOOooo, interesting, I didn't think the changes would be that substantial.

Isaac Stewart

I think the changes will be mainly in the art.

Phantine

since Peter mentioned it's in-universe, I hope your bloodier version gives more clues about who is operating this gruesome hemalurgy lab

Isaac Stewart

Hmm...that's a good question. :)

Isaac Stewart r/Stormlight_Archive AMA (Oct. 1, 2019)

Like most other artwork, it is an in-universe document. We're just not sure who made it, yet. It is susceptible to error, like the Hero of Ages Ars Arcanum says that atium's Hemalurgic power is stealing "Allomantic Temporal Powers." Which isn't wrong, per se, but now we're learning that it's much more expansive.

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Personally I'm still intrigued by Chromium on this chart.

Like, what does it even mean, "MIGHT" steal Destiny?? Were they unable to prove it conclusively but still thought there wasn't anything that fit better??

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4 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

In-World.

 

Phantine

Is this hemalurgy table also a speculative in-universe document (like how the RPG had atium spikes only stealing temporal, because that's what the steelies believed)?

Peter Ahlstrom

It is an in-world chart according to the knowledge of some people at a certain stage in the history of Scadrial. [Edit: not Roshar, sorry. Also it’s not Khriss.]

General Reddit 2019 (Jan. 5, 2019)

About Lerasium, we're not sure what Attributes should mean. It can be just human attributes (like strength, memories, etc.) or it can be anything from the hemalurgical table (which I find difficult). Still, it would not be strange if Lerasium is more powerful in Hemalurgy than Atium, even if the latter is Ruina's metal, Lerasium is much more invested.

I think Lerasium is actually misunderstood (again) and is stealing the extra Preservation that grants sentience on Scadrial. Which has a side effect of improving all your attributes. (It does not steal magical abilities.)

WOB on Atium is a little unclear, as he first says ‘Atium steals any power’ and then says its can mimic any other spike.’ 
 

The chart is in-world and hypothetical, since no one has ever actually created a Lerasium spike. In-world, attributes was likely picked to balance Atium’s ‘powers’.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

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10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Lerasium is actually misunderstood (again) and is stealing the extra Preservation that grants sentience on Scadrial. Which has a side effect of improving all your attributes. (It does not steal magical abilities.)

WOB on Atium is a little unclear, as he first says ‘Atium steals any power’ and then says its can mimic any other spike.’ 
 

The chart is in-world and hypothetical, since no one has ever actually created a Lerasium spike. In-world, attributes was likely picked to balance Atium’s ‘powers’.

 

Well, we're not sure if anyone used a spike from Lerasium. There has always been a strong theory that there were originally 16 Lerasium beads in Well (which means we don't know the location of many).

Edited by Raphaborn
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