Jasnah's Fourth Oath

[Solomonster]

Two event to consider together:

1) Jasnah discovered that Renarin's spren is corrupted by Sja-anat.  She initially resolves to kill him then changes her mind and chooses compassion.  Her spren indicates that this is right.

2) During the final battle of Oathbringer, Adolin sees men being tossed out of building with great force.  When he goes to investigate, he finds Jasnah surrounded by glowing geometric shapes.  The current theory is that this is Jasnah dismissing her Shardplate, which I am inclined to agree with.  

When taken together, it seems to me that Jasnah swore her fourth Oath soon after sparing Renarin.  While it is possible that Jasnah had obtained Shardplate prior to this, the scene with Renarin is just too much of a game-changing decision on Jasnah's part for me to think that there wasn't an oath involved.  This also would imply that the Elsecaller fourth Oath revolves around not letting logic rule 100% of the time. 

Furthermore, it also fits Jasnah's personality.  With Kaladin, the two oaths we've seen have been sworn in the heat of the moment (I'm about to die, so I'm going to be dramatic and swear another oath and EXPLODE WITH POWER!).  With Jasnah, she makes the right decision (spares Renarin), ponders on it while she's traveling to the building mentioned above, swears the oath, then uses her shiny new Shardplate to own these voidspren corrupted noobs.  Any thoughts?

 

[Mailnaise]

I think it makes a lot of sense, and yes the timeline sure makes sense with past events. The oaths that have been sworn on screen were all during/right before something huge in the story. Sometimes I feel like the Jasnah and renarin scene is a little bit...not ignored, but temporarily forgotten due to the other events happening then, but it really was a huge point for both characters, and I feel like it would have been a fantastic time for an oath to have been sworn. 

8 minutes ago, Solomonster said:

This also would imply that the Elsecaller fourth Oath revolves around not letting logic rule 100% of the time. 

I really like the theme of the oath too. Great for Jasnah

[+robardin]

Jasnah may have already sworn her Fourth Ideal (for Shardplate) prior to Thaylen Fields. Earlier, in Urithiru, when she catches Shallan sketching instead of taking notes during one of Dalinar's meetings planning how to talk to the other world leaders about the Everstorm (and sketching Kaladin, no less), she rejects Shallan's suggestion that her wardship be considered over because she's a "full Radiant" now: "Radiant, yes. Full? Where's your armor?"

I thought the obvious comeback would be, "Well, where's your armor then, if you're playing Senior Radiant?" but Shallan merely acts confused.

Jasnah then goes on to make a list of the ways that Shallan has proven herself either immature or unreliable, and concludes by saying that in any case, Shallan's wardship as a scholar is separate from her path as a Radiant, where they're in different Orders anyway and that Jasnah probably isn't suited to be her mentor in that regard in any case.

But it seems to me that someone like Jasnah would not drop that kind of line - "Where's your armor, then, Miss Full Radiant?" - without being prepared for the obvious "same to you" comeback. And "I never said I was one, either" seems like a lame comeback.

[+Invocation]

55 minutes ago, robardin said:

Jasnah may have already sworn her Fourth Ideal (for Shardplate) prior to Thaylen Fields. Earlier, in Urithiru, when she catches Shallan sketching instead of taking notes during one of Dalinar's meetings planning how to talk to the other world leaders about the Everstorm (and sketching Kaladin, no less), she rejects Shallan's suggestion that her wardship be considered over because she's a "full Radiant" now: "Radiant, yes. Full? Where's your armor?"

I thought the obvious comeback would be, "Well, where's your armor then, if you're playing Senior Radiant?" but Shallan merely acts confused.

Jasnah then goes on to make a list of the ways that Shallan has proven herself either immature or unreliable, and concludes by saying that in any case, Shallan's wardship as a scholar is separate from her path as a Radiant, where they're in different Orders anyway and that Jasnah probably isn't suited to be her mentor in that regard in any case.

But it seems to me that someone like Jasnah would not drop that kind of line - "Where's your armor, then, Miss Full Radiant?" - without being prepared for the obvious "same to you" comeback. And "I never said I was one, either" seems like a lame comeback.

Maybe she knew the Oath in words (see Kaladin's 4th Oath issues) but she wasn't quite worthy of swearing it yet, which could also be why Ivory said that it was right to spare Renarin.

[+robardin]

14 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Maybe she knew the Oath in words (see Kaladin's 4th Oath issues) but she wasn't quite worthy of swearing it yet, which could also be why Ivory said that it was right to spare Renarin.

That would be interesting.

Don't get me wrong, I really love the OP's proposal as to the form of the Fourth Ideal of the Elsecallers, especially as it pertains to Jasnah.

But immediately upon reading that passage early in Oathbringer, I totally expected Shallan to say something snarky about Radiant Shardplate, and Jasnah cooly flashing it in a quick private demonstration to shut her up. Was even a little disappointed when it didn't happen.

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

But immediately upon reading that passage early in Oathbringer, I totally expected Shallan to say something snarky about Radiant Shardplate, and Jasnah cooly flashing it in a quick private demonstration to shut her up. Was even a little disappointed when it didn't happen.

That's fair, it would have been pretty cool.

[Joy]

I don't think it would be out of character for Jasnah to be bluffing during that scene. We know that, as of Oathbringer, she's starting to feel way out of her league.

[Alderant]

Not to be a party pooper, but

2 hours ago, Solomonster said:

2) During the final battle of Oathbringer, Adolin sees men being tossed out of building with great force.  When he goes to investigate, he finds Jasnah surrounded by glowing geometric shapes.  The current theory is that this is Jasnah dismissing her Shardplate, which I am inclined to agree with.

The three Realms were one here, and we know Jasnah was doing a crap ton of soulcasting. We know, from a released Jasnah scene and the trip through Shadesmar, that cognitive essences can be "bound" into approximations of real world shapes when soulcasting occurs in the cognitive realm. I never assumed this scene to be Jasnah dismissing her Shardplate--I assumed it to be the fading of Jasnah's use of soulcasting on the fusion of the three realms. Remember, we haven't seen what the Cosmere would look like with the three realms fused as one before.

The Battle of Thaylen City is weird, there's a lot of weird things happening there, so any theory involving the Battle of Thaylen City as a proof should be taken with a spoon of salt until we see evidence of those occurrences beyond OB.

As always, however, you're more than allowed to disagree--all we really have at this point are theories, after all. I just thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion.

[RShara]

29 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Not to be a party pooper, but

The three Realms were one here, and we know Jasnah was doing a crap ton of soulcasting. We know, from a released Jasnah scene and the trip through Shadesmar, that cognitive essences can be "bound" into approximations of real world shapes when soulcasting occurs in the cognitive realm. I never assumed this scene to be Jasnah dismissing her Shardplate--I assumed it to be the fading of Jasnah's use of soulcasting on the fusion of the three realms. Remember, we haven't seen what the Cosmere would look like with the three realms fused as one before.

The Battle of Thaylen City is weird, there's a lot of weird things happening there, so any theory involving the Battle of Thaylen City as a proof should be taken with a spoon of salt until we see evidence of those occurrences beyond OB.

As always, however, you're more than allowed to disagree--all we really have at this point are theories, after all. I just thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion.

From Brandon's comments, I think it's pretty clear Jasnah has her Shardplate.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

It's very subtle, but at the end of Oathbringer, when Jasnah goes to find Shallan on the battlefield, she goes to grab Shallan, Shallan's over here as Radiant. She has Shards *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's a Read and Find Out. I'm being very coy on Shardplate, even though you have seen characters with it in the books before. Because I want to wait until I can do some reveals in viewpoint character.

I will tell you this: You have indeed seen people with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone.

source

Soon aftermath, I can't think of anything that would fit other than the glowing lines around Jasnah during the Battle.

Edited January 4, 2019 by RShara

[Alderant]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

From Brandon's comments, I think it's pretty clear Jasnah has her Shardplate.

 

Like I said, allowed to disagree. I don't see Brandon being coy as a sign it's Jasnah, per se. His wording is too vague, he says "seen people (plural) with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone." This is classic misdirection. The question was about Jasnah, so the implication is that seeing Jasnah that way is Jasnah soon after dismissing, but he doesn't even say soon aftermath of "dismissing", just the aftermath of someone with Shardplate. That's not a clear indication to me at all.

EDIT: For all we know, we could have seen someone who shouldn't have Shardplate use it or arrive after using it and we only saw the effects of the use of Shardplate. The WoB is just way too vague, there's too many ways to interpret it.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Alderant
Additional thought.

[Mailnaise]

Going back a few posts--

5 hours ago, Invocation said:

Maybe she knew the Oath in words (see Kaladin's 4th Oath issues) but she wasn't quite worthy of swearing it yet, which could also be why Ivory said that it was right to spare Renarin.

I think this is very possible, especially if our theory about her 4th oath would be is correct...

6 hours ago, Solomonster said:

This also would imply that the Elsecaller fourth Oath revolves around not letting logic rule 100% of the time. 

She has truly built so many parts of her life around looking at things logically- her religious views, her career, her relationships, her goals- something like this would be hard for her to swear to.

[Draginon]

Who knows, maybe when it's time for the 4th oath some, maybe all, Radiants have a hard time swearing it and it always takes time to get to it. Maybe Jasnah knew them for as long as we knew her and she finally swore them during Thaylen Field similar to how Kaladin knows the 4th oath but he's not ready to swear them yet... I do wonder if we'll see any full Radiants, as in swearing the 5th oath, by the end of the series?

[Poopslug The Pooper]

11 hours ago, Joy said:

I don't think it would be out of character for Jasnah to be bluffing during that scene. We know that, as of Oathbringer, she's starting to feel way out of her league.

I wouldn't even call it bluffing, more like Jasnah being the most knowledgeable when it comes to Radiant history, and she knows that "full" Radiants can summon Shardplate.  

Almost like when someone is a full police officer, they have their gun and badge.  It doesn't take a police officer to know about that and be able to see if someone is or isn't one.  

Maybe that's a bad expression, maybe more like the white coat when it comes to doctors.  If they have the white coat, they are legit and have become a full doctor.  It doesn't take another doctor to recognize whether a white coat is or isn't there.  

For any cops or doctors on this sub, forgive me, I don't actually know how those processes work, I'm just trying to come up with a visual  

[+Invocation]

6 hours ago, Draginon said:

I do wonder if we'll see any full Radiants, as in swearing the 5th oath, by the end of the series?

End of the series, yes. End of the first 5? Maybe, maybe not.

[Alderant]

Quote

I do wonder if we'll see any full Radiants, as in swearing the 5th oath, by the end of the series?

You mean, aside from Nale, right?

[Watchcry]

Quote

With Kaladin, the two oaths we've seen have been sworn in the heat of the moment (I'm about to die, so I'm going to be dramatic and swear another oath and EXPLODE WITH POWER!).

I don't think we can turn to how Kaladin makes his oaths as how everyone in his order makes the same oaths. It's not always in the heat of battle. Look no further than Lopen. As the Stormfather told Lopen, "YOU WEREN'T READY," when Lopen wanted to say the words while in battle in a dramatic way. Instead, he said them matter-of-factly in a normal conversation. 

So I'd have to take the Stormfather's word for it when he says that Radiants say their oaths when they're ready. 

With that said, the Stormfather has been wrong before (when telling Dalinar he shared the cohesion surge with the Stoneward in his vision). But in this case I think he is. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Watchcry

[+Invocation]

5 hours ago, Alderant said:

You mean, aside from Nale, right?

We haven't seen that Oath be sworn. We have seen that he is there and has sworn it, but I think Draginon was referring to seeing the Oath on screen.

[Alderant]

That's what I was asking. Weve seen a 5th ideal KR on screen, but not seen the event of swearing the fifth ideal yet.

[Draginon]

On 1/5/2019 at 2:21 PM, Alderant said:

That's what I was asking. Weve seen a 5th ideal KR on screen, but not seen the event of swearing the fifth ideal yet.

Yeah, seeing someone swearing all the oaths, not already have sworn them. Not even sure Nale should count since he's a Herald, meaning they should already technically be full Radiants.

[Kon-Tiki]

Heralds =/= Radiants. Their powers don't even work exactly the same way

[Pathfinder]

34 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Heralds =/= Radiants. Their powers don't even work exactly the same way

Brandon considers heralds as members of their orders. However, Nale swearing 5 oaths is separate from wielding an honorblade. So Nale is a Herald and a fully oathed skybreaker radiant. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Gasper]

What is Rock is one of the Radiants. He is hiding things and he does do many things that are in line with the Windrunner Oaths before he becomes a squire. What if he is not a squire, but in fact is a Windrunner who is actively suppressing his powers? The reason that he does not attract squires is a result of him suppressing his powers and because he sees Kaladin as the leader of his group. Granted, I can't explain the lack of his spren showing up, maybe it stays with his family or hides its self like Glys. Maybe his spren is a pacifist and does not like him using weapons. Also, his family seemed to have experience with surgebinders when they were attacked by the Fused. 

[+Invocation]

21 minutes ago, Gasper said:

What is Rock is one of the Radiants. He is hiding things and he does do many things that are in line with the Windrunner Oaths before he becomes a squire. What if he is not a squire, but in fact is a Windrunner who is actively suppressing his powers? The reason that he does not attract squires is a result of him suppressing his powers and because he sees Kaladin as the leader of his group. Granted, I can't explain the lack of his spren showing up, maybe it stays with his family or hides its self like Glys. Maybe his spren is a pacifist and does not like him using weapons. Also, his family seemed to have experience with surgebinders when they were attacked by the Fused. 

I doubt Rock is a full Radiant (yet) because we've had some short things from him, and there would be something there hinting at it. I do think Rock will end up a Radiant at some point (though I cannot guarantee he will be a Windrunner), and the reason the family has experience with Surgebinders is a combination of Rock's letters and the scouts that found them were Windrunner squires right at the edge of their abilities with regards to range from Kaladin.

[+robardin]

48 minutes ago, Gasper said:

What is Rock is one of the Radiants. He is hiding things and he does do many things that are in line with the Windrunner Oaths before he becomes a squire. What if he is not a squire, but in fact is a Windrunner who is actively suppressing his powers? The reason that he does not attract squires is a result of him suppressing his powers and because he sees Kaladin as the leader of his group. Granted, I can't explain the lack of his spren showing up, maybe it stays with his family or hides its self like Glys. Maybe his spren is a pacifist and does not like him using weapons. Also, his family seemed to have experience with surgebinders when they were attacked by the Fused. 

I think we can rule Rock out as a Radiant (so far) because he was hurt pretty badly enough when the Diagram attacked Urithiru and stole Jezrien's Honorblade from Bridge Four that he had to be carried to the Oathgate to Thaylen Fields, but once he went through and Kaladin was nearby, he immediately began to draw Stormlight and healed up. That sounds pretty squire-y to me. It's hard to imagine anyone intentionally suppressing Stormlight healing in a mortal situation - it would probably even be an unconscious thing.

When we see him glowing while or after using the Shardbow he's presumably glowing with Stormlight, but as Kaladin thought to himself, that's not enough to explain how he was able to draw it.

There's definitely something more, and it's almost certainly related to the "lies" he told Bridge Four about himself and his past, but it's not Radiancy. (My guess, as mentioned elsewhere, is that he is actually the leader of his clan, and now that he's a Full Shardbearer, can claim to be some kind of Horneater High King.)

[SwordNimiForPresident]

On 1/5/2019 at 2:43 PM, Watchcry said:

With that said, the Stormfather has been wrong before (when telling Dalinar he shared the cohesion surge with the Stoneward in his vision). But in this case I think he is. 

Wasn't this a writing error?

I'm in the Jasnah has her armor camp. That being said, we've also seen plate in Dalinar's visions. I think we've even seen Dalinar summon plate in the visions. In the one that he pulled Venli into he jumps down to help her and his hand is surrounded by something that protects it from the stones. Nale would obviously also have plate as would a number of his Skybreakers (assuming some of them have sworn the 4th). As for when she got it? I think that smug line to Shallan indicates that she has had it for some time, but that's only an opinion.