Auralis

WOB about Kaladin & Shallan...

102 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Adolin shows his love more in his actions than his thoughts I think. He brings her food when he hears she hasn't eaten, which is pretty thoughtful. He wants to teach her how to use a Shardblade because it's something he loves and he's excited to share it. He wants her to come along with the visit to Ialai because he think she's smart and comforting to him. He defends her from Dalinar when Shallan annoys him. etc. etc.

Jofwu, that's actually a great point, and I think it often gets overlooked in the discussion. That's one of the reasons I say it's clear he cares about her. It's hard to tell if that is genuine romantic love, or platonic love, but it is an indicator. I would like to throw this out there though, that my wife and I both read Oathbringer as well, and while I've always been pretty die-hard in the "Kaladin is better" camp, she actually flipped in her preferences after reading Oathbringer--from Adolin to Kaladin (and she generally despises Kaladin), so it is definitely subject to people reading the text differently.

(And to be clear to naysayers...my wife and I disagreed on the romance from day one, and she went into Oathbringer generally blind about what happened, but knowing I wasn't as fond of it as others by Brandon.)

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

Adolin ... glorification? What?

All I see is some pretty irrational "I hate him so much he has to die just because".

While I do believe he's the better fit for Shallan than Kaladin (not the most perfect fit there is) when it comes to that doesn't mean I think Adolin is the best or is without flaws.
As I said before: he's not even my favourite character. I'm just defending him because I don't get the raging hate some here display.

I checked the entire page, and did a search for die, and for hate concerning Adolin. Die came up only once, from "Use the Falchion" and that individual was just throwing out random ideas of what can happen. Quoted below:

 

"Kaladin gets with someone else? Adolin is actually a good influence on Shallan and she becomes a better character? Adolin dies and Kaladin takes up Maya and helps revive her, becoming an Edgedancer AND a Windrunner, and then marries Shallan anyways? 

 

I have no idea."

 

Just prior to that, someone mentioned the possibility of Kaladin dying, yet that was not linked to hating the character. Please provide reference in this thread as to where people hated Adolin so much that they specifically called for his death. Otherwise this is an exaggeration. Thank you. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Wow guys I didn't even had to respond - awesome job, everything I would have said and maybe more and a hellishly lot more detailed than I would have done it :D

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@Pathfinder: If you look up the "who do you want most dead" thread, you will find three people. I think I remember some other instances where I read about that, but I'm not saving up every post I read online.

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5 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

@Pathfinder: If you look up the "who do you want most dead" thread, you will find three people. I think I remember some other instances where I read about that, but I'm not saving up every post I read online.

Shall we enumerate the times Kaladin or Shallan has gotten hate or desires for death in the history of the Shard? In that very same thread four people said they wanted Shallan dead, and you don't see me (the self-ascribed #1 Shallan fan) complaining about it.

Also, quoting the thread that was listed specifically for people to list which characters they want dead and saying its a reflection of the general attitude isn't quite accurate.

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1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Shall we enumerate the times Kaladin or Shallan has gotten hate or desires for death in the history of the Shard? In that very same thread four people said they wanted Shallan dead, and you don't see me (the self-ascribed #1 Shallan fan) complaining about it.

Also, quoting the thread that was listed specifically for people to list which characters they want dead and saying its a reflection of the general attitude isn't quite accurate.

I've been back on this site for maybe three months total, with a gap of three and a half years in between. I also work a fulltime job and I don't have the time to read every thread about everyone ever created, sorry.
I most likely wouldn't even have mentioned this if someone hadn't spoken of "glorification". Everything I've read about Adolin in the current threads can imo only be called "glorification" if you hate the guy very much for reasons that are beyond me.

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Just now, Winds Alight said:

I've been back on this site for maybe three months total, with a gap of three and a half years in between. I also work a fulltime job and I don't have the time to read every thread about everyone ever created, sorry.
I most likely wouldn't even have mentioned this if someone hadn't spoken of "glorification". Everything I've read about Adolin in the current threads can imo only be called "glorification" if you hate the guy very much for reasons that are beyond me.

Sorry you're so busy! I understand what it's like to be limited by time--I mean, I've been back on here actively for about a week, I work full-time, I have two young children, and I'm building a portfolio for my art career.

But I love analysis, so I make sure that when I make my posts that I'm doing a good job and source as much material as I can--because let's face it, analytical discussion without evidence to back it up is really just theory debating. :D

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Posted (edited)

Adolin 'glorification' - the way I see it people who are angry with the resolve (this is absolutely and entirely not about who got whom but how it was done - how fast, how relatable, how realistic, etc) bring far better 'proof' of why it was bad than the other side with why it was not.

Let's face it, all shadolin people really care about is that they got their happy ending - it doesn't matter how - just that they got it.

The most people who are rooting for adolin come up with is the 'he sees her' passage, but does he really?

People come up with in book quotes on mass why it isn't so - and then it's his crumbling world and how he deals with it - people mention the killing of sadeas - then how he drove shallan into her 3rd splinter - 'well, shallan did that to herself, he's just a boy' - then it's him bringing her food (kal brought her shoes at her wedding much better than food anyway) - people say ok you're right he cares - and suddenly they are perfect for each other and in love... wait what? When did that happen?

- Just for once I want to read a quote that's from the books, not broken off at some convenient point that actually proofs the fact that adolin and shallans feelings are genuine - that he is the right choice and the whole resolve wasn't a complete mess...

But it never comes, wanna know why? Because Shadolin people romanticise the whole thing, not caring how it was done just that it was done. Of course you run low then on actual facts why it's 'right' other than - 'because it is'

People who argue here mostly don't hate adolin I guess but how people react to the whole affair, making tons of excuses so the whole stuff makes at least a little sense. Otherwise there is only agreeing with the fact that either it's not completely over or Sanderson had a stroke while writing the last chapters and never bothered to fix it... (and that's not at all likely)

Edited by Void89
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3 minutes ago, Void89 said:

Adolin 'glorification' - the way I see it people who are angry with the resolve (this is absolutely and entirely not about who got whom but how it was done - how fast, how relatable, how realistic, etc) bring far better 'proof' of why it was bad than the other side with why it was not.

Let's face it, all shadolin people really care about is that they got their happy ending - it doesn't matter how - just that they got it.

The most people who are rooting for adolin come up with is the 'he sees her' passage, but does he really?

People come up with in book quotes on mass why it isn't so - and then it's his crumbling world and how he deals with it - people mention the killing of sadeas - then how he drove shallan into her 3rd splinter - 'well, shallan did that to herself, he's just a boy' - then it's him bringing her food (kal brought her shoes at her wedding much better than food anyway) - people say ok you're right he cares - and suddenly they are perfect for each other and in love... wait what? When did that happen?

- Just for once I want to read a quote that's from the books, not broken off at some convenient point that actually proofs the fact that adolin and shallans feelings are genuine - that he is the right choice and the whole resolve wasn't a complete mess...

But it never comes, wanna know why? Because Shadolin people romanticise the whole thing, not caring how it was done just that it was done. Of course you run low then on actual facts why it's 'right' other than - 'because it is'

People who argue here mostly don't hate adolin I guess but how people react to the whole affair, making tons of excuses so the whole stuff makes at least a little sense. Otherwise there is only agreeing with the fact that either it's not completely over or Sanderson had a stroke while writing the last chapters and never bothered to fix it... (and that's not at all likely)

Y'know, I'm not an analysis reader. I go with "does it feel good/bad/right? Yes? No? Done. I'm mostly too lazy to go through page after page to find evidence for something I don't need to convince myself, especially not in the futile attempt to make other people see things as I do. I've given up on that years ago, especially online. I don't see the point.

I still try to determine where I let myself be dragged into this, because I'm not even a Shadolin person. I'm mostly a "romance didn't take up too much space and was (for now) resolved without unnecessary drama? I'm cool."
I could have done without any romance at all honestly. That's the reason why I'm not exactly passionate about proving that Shallan and Adolin are the perfect match. I don't even think they are!  But none of the quotes and analysis in this (and other) thread did convince me they're completely horrible for each other. So I hope they make it work, because otherwise, we'd have more love triangle blah blah and that would be something to really annoy me.

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7 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Y'know, I'm not an analysis reader. I go with "does it feel good/bad/right? Yes? No? Done. I'm mostly too lazy to go through page after page to find evidence for something I don't need to convince myself, especially not in the futile attempt to make other people see things as I do. I've given up on that years ago, especially online. I don't see the point.

I still try to determine where I let myself be dragged into this, because I'm not even a Shadolin person. I'm mostly a "romance didn't take up too much space and was (for now) resolved without unnecessary drama? I'm cool."
I could have done without any romance at all honestly. That's the reason why I'm not exactly passionate about proving that Shallan and Adolin are the perfect match. I don't even think they are!  But none of the quotes and analysis in this (and other) thread did convince me they're completely horrible for each other. So I hope they make it work, because otherwise, we'd have more love triangle blah blah and that would be something to really annoy me.

See, I do the good/bad/right thing too, but I guess my mind works differently than yours 'cause my wheels immediately start spinning and drawing connections between various things. I can't help formulating ideas and analyzing what I read. And I don't "futilely" try to convince myself or others. It's a forum! Forums are about discussion. I just believe that good, proper discussion requires well thought-out and analyzed arguments.

Like I said, maybe you and I just see things differently. :)

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Just a friendly reminder that different character analyses are all welcome here.  Let’s try not to point fingers and focus on actual book observations, and communicating respectfully. Thanks everyone!

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My inquiry was in regards to this thread specifically. If no one had stated they wanted Adolin to die in this thread specifically, I did not see why the individuals in this thread need to be accused of such, nor do I feel it would be conducive to the continuation of the conversation contained in this thread. If you take issue with an individual saying Adolin should die, then perhaps state that to that individual in that thread. 

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On 1/2/2019 at 7:06 PM, Auralis said:

What could possibly happen that would make a Shalladin shipper VERY PLEASED that they don't end up together? I feel like it would have to be more than Adolin and Shallan's relationship blossoming. First reactions for me were that either Kaladin dies/sacrifices himself/goes over to Odium (please no!). Or am I reading it wrong and something happens to Shallan instead?
What does everyone else think?

Concerning the original post of the topic, I wanted to say...

I think Brandon's being really optimistic here. Which makes sense... He's trying to break the news gently. It's easy to say you hope someone will be pleased and then walk away, you know? At the end of the day he's going to tell the story he wants to tell, and he's just hoping it pleases more people than it doesn't.

I assume he's implying that he's not going to just drop the Shallan-Adolin relationship and let it settle. That would surely frustrate a lot of people--particularly those who aren't fond of the relationship as it is now. My hope is that he does interesting things with their relationship and that it affects their stories in meaningful ways. In that case, perhaps people who didn't like the pairing will find something to love (or at least like) over the next two books. 

But obviously there's no way it will please everyone.

I can't speak as a Shalladin shipper, so I can't pretend to know what development would make their relationship more interesting to read from that perspective. Personally, I hope that Brandon uses them to explore marriage of a young couple (something he did with Vin/Elend, but I think he can do better). I hope they have problems to work through. More specifically, I'd like to watch them have to work through Shallan's issues together.

Maybe Adolin doesn't really understand her issues to some extent. So let him learn. Maybe Adolin doesn't love her as much as he should (or vice versa). So let's see that develop. My hope is that Brandon sees room for conflict/development in their current relationship, and he takes some time to explore it.

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The scene (scenes?) where Shallan comes out with her Thousand and One lies and/or omissions concerning her masks, her past and so on will certainly be interesting reading. I just hope it won't all be off-screened or simply brushed over like it was nothing. I want to see Adolin struggle like a normal freaking person over seeing the person they love admit that they're actually not at all like how they've presented themselves so far. I want to see him react to that, and I want to see character interaction that isn't between two robots. If that happens, I might even start to like Shadolin.

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37 minutes ago, Vissy said:

The scene (scenes?) where Shallan comes out with her Thousand and One lies and/or omissions concerning her masks, her past and so on will certainly be interesting reading. I just hope it won't all be off-screened or simply brushed over like it was nothing. I want to see Adolin struggle like a normal freaking person over seeing the person they love admit that they're actually not at all like how they've presented themselves so far. I want to see him react to that, and I want to see character interaction that isn't between two robots. If that happens, I might even start to like Shadolin.

If this happens not only will we get to see how Adolin actually feels for Shallan but also how adaptable he is to finding out the truth. They’re married after all. What turmoil it would for him to find out. 

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Yeah, there are  problems and potential problems with their relationship,but I don't see that as 'it shouldn't have happened' but 'hey let's explore their relationship, and see how they work through the problems (or don't).

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9 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Yeah, there are  problems and potential problems with their relationship,but I don't see that as 'it shouldn't have happened' but 'hey let's explore their relationship, and see how they work through the problems (or don't).

Yeah. I actually think they are good together. A perfect contrast but as stated numerously they haven’t seen each other’s real face. (Adolin I feel likemight be hiding behind his own mask. He does have commitment issues if we don’t remember.  

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10 minutes ago, Eris said:

He does have commitment issues if we don’t remember.  

It's mentioned and alluded to a lot in the books but I'm not sure it's actually an accurate statement.

Having commitment issues is an easy cop-out saying for someone who is searching for the right one but is willing to search. (Ie. play the field/date a lot.)

If he was banging all these chicks but not sticking around then I'd start pondering the term "commitment issues" but as it stands he seems too timid to even get to the point where commitment comes into play.

Also to note though, he very well could have commitment issues, I just don't think we've seen anything in-book that actually suggests that. It just looks like it a bit.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

It's mentioned and alluded to a lot in the books but I'm not sure it's actually an accurate statement.

Having commitment issues is an easy cop-out saying for someone who is searching for the right one but is willing to search. (Ie. play the field/date a lot.)

If he was banging all these chicks but not sticking around then I'd start pondering the term "commitment issues" but as it stands he seems too timid to even get to the point where commitment comes into play.

Also to note though, he very well could have commitment issues, I just don't think we've seen anything in-book that actually suggests that. It just looks like it a bit.

 

Soooo, let me put this straight…

Only if you do the "wooohoooo" (as I think it's called in the sims for PG reasons and stuff), with a couple of Girls and then running away…. only then you have commitment issues?

Otherwise it just seems like it...? Thanks for making that clear, I think I was mistaken on that part all my life then :o

Edited by Void89
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Just now, Void89 said:

 

Soooo, let me put this straight…

Only if you do the "wooohoooo" (as I think it's called in the sims for PG reasons and stuff), with a couple of Girls and then running away…. only then you have commitmentissues?

Otherwise it just seems like it...? Thanks for making that clear, I think I was mistaken on that part all my life then :o

That sarcasm really puts me in the mood to enlighten you. :rolleyes:

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I wasn’t condoning Adolins behaviour. I’m just saying there might be more to Adolin than we think. And I was using his commitment issues as an example. In no way is it an excuse. 

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If the Alethi are as weird about sex as the books imply? I'm very comfortable saying Adolin almost certainly has never had sex, seeing as he was so flustered and embarrassed simply when Shallan kisses him. I doubt he's done so much as even kissing the other girls in camp while he was 'seeing' them if he can barely handle it from Shallan.

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20 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

If the Alethi are as weird about sex as the books imply? I'm very comfortable saying Adolin almost certainly has never had sex, seeing as he was so flustered and embarrassed simply when Shallan kisses him. I doubt he's done so much as even kissing the other girls in camp while he was 'seeing' them if he can barely handle it from Shallan.

He wasn't put off balance by the whore he saved when she offered him her wares, for whatever that's worth. The Alethi are internationally regarded as prudish though. I think him being put off balance by Shallan was as much surprise and some weird social propriety as it was sexual awkwardness, maybe more

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Just now, Kon-Tiki said:

He wasn't put off balance by the whore he saved when she offered him her wares, for whatever that's worth. The Alethi are internationally regarded as prudish though. I think him being put off balance by Shallan was as much surprise and some weird social propriety as it was sexual awkwardness, maybe more

That scene, at least to me, feels easily explainable because he didn't accept and he knew he wasn't going to accept. Wouldn't be proper for him! (This is not my main reason, but who hasn't used the 'oh, my parents don't let me do that' to get out of something you don't really want to do... Just occurred to me now, haha.) I would agree there's definitely a lot of weird social propriety in regards to proper dating etiquette, but that's his continuous response to Shallan kissing him, not just the first time she surprises him. It takes him what feels like a long time to get over that flustered reaction! :P

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I'd guess its also more of a lighteyes thing. I'd kind of be surprised if Kaladin and Tarah never boned down

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