Question 22

[Snipexe]

2 minutes ago, MrakeDarshall said:

The comparison to Worm is also probably why I am pointing this out as a thing Reckoners could have done better. Reckoners also did some things better than Worm. It's kind of hard not to compare them when they have so much in common in how they approach the superhero genre.

Having just finished my reread of Worm, I’m curious. What would you say Reckoners does better then Worm?

[breakingamber]

25 minutes ago, MrakeDarshall said:

Sensible limits. Pretty hard to counter offensively if they can do stuff like teleport the ground underneath your feet to be on top of you and crush/entomb you, but within the range of epic power levels we already have in the RP. About on par with Orbit in terms of power level, if I had to guess.

Idk, I think it would probably be fine for Tayahound to suffer clothing damage, if it didn't get too descriptive about that.

Hm, now I'm trying to figure out how to destroy the world with a power that puts temporary colored dots on things  I came up with a few ideas:

• Cover all the clouds in black dots. This prevents sunlight from reaching the surface, causing the equivalent of nuclear winter for as long as it lasts.
• Or just cover the ground in black dots. This probably heats the earth up a fair bit, causing mass extinction.
• Why stop there? Blanket the sun in black spots and freeze the earth completely. This would probably succeed in killing all multicellular life.
• Better yet, surround a bunch of the closest stars in white dots and reflect as much light as you can towards earth. Vaporize the earth in a couple hundred light years.
• In the case of an infinite universe, use the properties of Hilbert's Hotel in conjunction with the light-focusing trick detailed above to blow up the entire universe.

Well, that was a fun thought experiment  I'd ask how you would go about using a power like "controlling insects" to achieve cosmic levels of destruction, but well...

I actually had a character that was like that. One with an indescribably lame power that ended up being absurdly potent and destructive because for some reason the proper limitations just weren't there. Not a character that would actually be in this RP of course, due to how broken it would be, but a character that's important in the backstory of one of my other characters.

Yeah, you could probably kill the likes of Steelheart, Prof, and Obliteration with a couple of nuclear warheads, but for all intents and purposes of the books they were invincible except for their weaknesses. Regalia was a nice exception, since she was arguably the most effective epic in the entire series but she had literally no abilities to help with a direct confrontation. I agree that Worm is really, really good at this, and this is part of why I enjoyed Worm  The comparison to Worm is also probably why I am pointing this out as a thing Reckoners could have done better. Reckoners also did some things better than Worm. It's kind of hard not to compare them when they have so much in common in how they approach the superhero genre.

I was referring to the teleportation power, but... yeah. Wow. Didn't think of those. 

Also, bit of a dumb question. @TwylightSansSparkles: Would being covered in multicoloured paint be mildly traumatizing for Jade?

 

[DrakeMarshall]

Just now, Snipexe said:

Having just finished my reread of Worm, I’m curious. What would you say Reckoners does better then Worm?

Well, I'd say Sanderson had the pacing down better. Maybe a bit more polished writing style, too. Perks of having already published a bunch of really good books. There's also the fact that while both Reckoners and Worm are really similar in (spoilers) where the powers come from: Calamity and Scion respectively they imply rather different things symbolically, and Reckoners has some stuff to say there that Worm doesn't, because Worm is busy saying other things. So yeah, I definitely think Reckoners did some things better than Worm.

That said, I honestly did enjoy Worm more than Reckoners. Don't get me wrong, Reckoners did a fantastic job of being what it was supposed to be; it was written as a YA novel and I really don't think it was supposed to have quite the same depth that Worm does. That said, it doesn't have quite the same depth that Worm does. For good or for ill, my writing here is probably going to be influenced as much by Worm as it is by Reckoners.

[The Young Pyromancer]

Reckoners actually does have a bunch of logical weaknesses.  Fortuity, for one, Refractionary, the dust thing with Obliteration, the soap and submarine with Regalia, ect.  The reason Prof is so powerful is because he has two PIs, which is relevant because they cover each other's weaknesses.

[DrakeMarshall]

Hm. I stand corrected, I think. I'd totally forgotten about the soap thing with Regalia. That's a really good example.

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

@breakingamber Please don't use Trapmaster for the name of your new Epic.... I'm only saying this because I already made an Epic named Trapmaster for this little side thing set up as backstory for a villain that might come into the general RP. 

[breakingamber]

23 minutes ago, Hemalurgic Headshot said:

@breakingamber Please don't use Trapmaster for the name of your new Epic.... I'm only saying this because I already made an Epic named Trapmaster for this little side thing set up as backstory for a villain that might come into the general RP. 

Yeah, I was leaning towards Downfall anyway.

So, wait, just checking: At this moment, meeting-wise, Epoch is slowing down the entire stadium to trap all his potential competitors. Blank or Kokichi or someone outside is going to notice and shout like a suddenly awake Taya (again I'm willing to delete that post if you'd like Darshall, just wanted to try and move it along while you were away), and chaos happens. Epoch dies, maybe other people die, and the day ends with Pariah loose, time barriers down, and no real leadership in the area. 

In any case, @The Young Pyromancer, @winter devotion: Whaddya say?

Edited July 8, 2019 by breakingamber

[DrakeMarshall]

1 hour ago, breakingamber said:

Yeah, I was leaning towards Downfall anyway.

So, wait, just checking: At this moment, meeting-wise, Epoch is slowing down the entire stadium to trap all his potential competitors. Blank or Kokichi or someone outside is going to notice and shout like a suddenly awake Taya (again I'm willing to delete that post if you'd like Darshall, just wanted to try and move it along while you were away), and chaos happens. Epoch dies, maybe other people die, and the day ends with Pariah loose, time barriers down, and no real leadership in the area. 

In any case, @The Young Pyromancer, @winter devotion: Whaddya say?

Sounds about right.

Unless people would want the time barriers to stick around after Epoch dies... If that happens, it could potentially seal the city from the outside world and create shortages for the maple population.

No it's good no need to remove that part. Might make Taya wake up soon I guess.

[The Young Pyromancer]

Blank's not necessarily going to point out what's going on right away.  But aside from that, pretty much.

EDIT: Also, on Nukes, the book actually mentions that a few governments did that at first, but as people continued to Rend, people realized that that didn't really work.  After all, there are only so many cities of your country you can destroy before you cease to be a country.

Edited July 8, 2019 by The Young Pyromancer

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

20 hours ago, breakingamber said:

Also, bit of a dumb question. @TwylightSansSparkles: Would being covered in multicoloured paint be mildly traumatizing for Jade?

I don't think I'd quite call it traumatic, mildly or otherwise, but she'd definitely want to wash it off as soon as possible. Being covered in glitter would be more distressing for her. More so if it was done to her as an intentional callback to her days as Funtimes. 

also i'm super going against the grain here but i've read worm and did not like it sort of sorry sort of not bye

[The Young Pyromancer]

1 hour ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

also i'm super going against the grain here but i've read worm and did not like it sort of sorry sort of not bye

That's fine.  It's a niche work.  It's for the kind of people who are into exploring morality and the complexities of right V. wrong.  It's fine if you don't like it, though I do think that you might like certain pieces of fanfiction better than the original work.  I would be interested knowing what you parts you didn't like if you feel like sharing.

[Kidpen]

*casually plugs hpmor for now reason except that it's a web serial like worm and also literally my favorite piece of fiction I've ever read*

Anyways has anything happened?

Edited July 9, 2019 by Kidpen

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

30 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

That's fine.  It's a niche work.  It's for the kind of people who are into exploring morality and the complexities of right V. wrong.  It's fine if you don't like it, though I do think that you might like certain pieces of fanfiction better than the original work.  I would be interested knowing what you parts you didn't like if you feel like sharing.

I love exploring the complexities of right vs. wrong, and I felt Worm didn't do that as much as it purported to, because all of Taylor's assumptions about people turn out to be correct. If she thinks someone has good in them or hidden depths or what have you, they wind up becoming her ally in one way or another. If she thinks they're irredeemably evil or self-centered or just plain useless, she winds up being right about that too. I feel like a truly morally grey world would have its protagonist be dead wrong about some of the people and organizations she chooses to trust or distrust, to show that good people can present obstacles for the protagonist and that evil people can help for selfish reasons. 

Taylor as a character also rubbed me the wrong way. It's established early on that she's being bullied pretty severely (which….I know that bullying in public schools can get bad, but the complete and total apathy of everyone on staff was over-the-top—and I say that as someone who worked at a public school and saw firsthand just how little administrative staff members want to get involved in things like bullying) and yet she almost immediately indulges in a pretty unkind inner monologue toward two students who are even lower in the pecking order than she is. While that's a believable trait, it's not one that put me on good terms with her. 

I also didn't feel the worldbuilding rang true. It's meant to be a world where parahumans have been a part of daily life for over 30 years, yet it feels more like one where they just showed up six months ago. I mean, if they've really been a part of the world for over three decades, and the mechanisms of becoming one are known, shouldn't there be measures in place to prevent people from triggering? Shouldn't schools be cracking down much harder on physical bullying to prevent trigger events, and shouldn't prisons be considered a last resort because of the high likelihood of offenders triggering? Shouldn't there be capes supervising community service and doing other boring duties like that? Why haven't city residents moved further inland to have a better chance at avoiding Endbringers like Leviathan? 

I can see why some people love Worm, but I actually think Umbrella Academy (show and comics) does a much better job of exploring moral complexity with morally grey characters. 

[The Young Pyromancer]

Okay.  My internet will shut off, so I can't respond in full.  Part 2 will come later.

19 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

If she thinks they're irredeemably evil or self-centered or just plain useless, she winds up being right about that too.

Hellhound, Tattletale, Coil, Alexandria, Armsmaster, The Travelers, Glenn,

Spoiler

Scion, both when a hero and a villain, Eidolon, Glasdig Uaine, Bonesaw.

26 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

to show that good people can present obstacles for the protagonist

Panacea, Sundancer, The Wards, all of the good BB Protectorate, Glenn, Dragon (who kind of doesn't count), arguably Piggot, aaannd running out of time so posting before I get cut off.

 

 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

15 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Hellhound, Tattletale, Coil, Alexandria, Armsmaster, The Travelers, Glenn,

She doesn't trust Coil from the outset and Tattletale is her friend. Armsmaster is a cremhole whose very, very reasonable anger toward her is portrayed as self-centered and wrong for a hero to have. 

15 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Panacea, Sundancer, The Wards, all of the good BB Protectorate, Glenn, Dragon (who kind of doesn't count), arguably Piggot, aaannd running out of time so posting before I get cut off.

Many of those people are shown to have ulterior motives that stand between the greater good and everything else, Piggot is a cremhole who we're not supposed to develop more than a very grudging respect for, the Wards and other heroes are demonstrated again and again to be useless. Taylor is the only one whose methods are deemed necessary by the author and whose goals are always worth following. 

And why are you listing Dragon if she doesn't count? 

Edit: I think what I’d point out regarding the examples you gave is that those characters are only shown in a more flattering light after their goals and/or methods begin to align with Taylor’s, or they begin helping her in some way. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[DrakeMarshall]

1 hour ago, Kidpen said:

*casually plugs hpmor for now reason except that it's a web serial like worm and also literally my favorite piece of fiction I've ever read*

That was a pretty entertaining read. Not my absolute favorite but definitely not a bad way to spend a couple weekends reading.

 

Re: Worm and exploring complex questions of right vs wrong.

In-depth questions of right vs. wrong is not really what I enjoyed Worm for, to be honest. I would partially agree with Twi's assessment that Worm wasn't that complicated, morally speaking. Most of the protagonist characters have pretty similar outlooks, both to each other and to the author. And at the end of the day, a darker and edgier story does not automatically qualify it for being morally sophisticated.

I would, however, disagree with the assessment that Taylor is never portrayed as wrong. She was wrong about quite a few people, Defiant in particular, although I think Pyro already pointed that out. More to the point, Taylor is frequently portrayed as right and sympathetic whenever she does something questionable, but that's justified. The bulk of the story is limited to her perspective. It is heavily implied that her perception is clouded by her shard. She always feels right about what she is doing in the moment, but she looks back on it and realizes she went too far. At the end she even says that she regrets everything she did, even if it meant saving the world.

I wouldn't say that exploring themes of right vs. wrong is one of Worm's selling points, but I definitely don't think it does a bad job of it, either.

 

For the record, I also think this is something Ward does better. Whether it's normal humans scared of parahumans taking over or Amy trying to figure stuff out, a lot of the antagonists are at least partially sympathetic.

Except Teacher. Teacher is just a cremhole.

Edited July 9, 2019 by MrakeDarshall

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

4 minutes ago, MrakeDarshall said:

More to the point, Taylor is frequently portrayed as right and sympathetic whenever she does something questionable, but that's justified.

I honestly don't think it is. 

The perspective a story is told from does not mean the author and audience should be encouraged to get on board with everything the character does. And they are encouraged to do this, for the bulk of the story; when Taylor does something morally questionable, the justifications she gives for her actions are often shown to be right. Only characters we are supposed to dislike, for one reason or another, question what she is doing. This is not the narrative of a character whose justifications are entirely in her head; this is the narrative of a character whose justifications we are meant to support. 

Furthermore, interludes might call her methods into question (when they are, again, from people we're not supposed to like) but they drive home the fact that they work. When an interlude is from a friend of hers, Taylor is shilled almost to the point of parody. If the justification for Taylor's actions is meant to be entirely in her head, these interludes would have been a prime opportunity to show us a different, far less rosy perspective on what she's doing. Instead, they're used to tell us that, yes, everything Taylor is doing is right and good and while her methods might be questionable, her good intentions justify the means. 

[the winter system]

On 7/9/2019 at 5:51 AM, breakingamber said:

Yeah, I was leaning towards Downfall anyway.

So, wait, just checking: At this moment, meeting-wise, Epoch is slowing down the entire stadium to trap all his potential competitors. Blank or Kokichi or someone outside is going to notice and shout like a suddenly awake Taya (again I'm willing to delete that post if you'd like Darshall, just wanted to try and move it along while you were away), and chaos happens. Epoch dies, maybe other people die, and the day ends with Pariah loose, time barriers down, and no real leadership in the area. 

In any case, @The Young Pyromancer, @winter devotion: Whaddya say?

Sounds good. I haven’t really been paying attention to the meeting so I’ll try to check in on that.

[The Young Pyromancer]

21 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

She doesn't trust Coil from the outset

Except when he goes on about ruling the city and making it a better place.

 

21 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Tattletale is her friend.

Not at first.  Taylor was wrong about all of the Undersiders, but Grue seemed okay.  Regent was decent.  Tattletale was a Thinker, so she had some doubts there.

 

21 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Many of those people are shown to have ulterior motives that stand between the greater good and everything else,

Don't we all?

Isn't the profound lack of ulterior motives beyond the inherent bias that we all have towards our own ideas the thing that makes Cauldron so repulsive?

"Ulterior motives" is what makes us people.  Loyalty to friends, family, and the things we care about.  There are very few people who would not ultimately decide to sacrifice two strangers to save one person they love, even if they would carry the scar of their decision through the rest of their lives.

From earlier:

22 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

shouldn't there be measures in place to prevent people from triggering?

There probably would be, if it wasn't for the fact that a person triggering is one more person to fight the Endbringers and

Spoiler

Scion

As of whether Worm explores morality well:

I think Worm explores one aspect of morality extremely well; how far is too far when faced with the end of the world?  At what point does a .07% increase in chance of victory become not worth the costs?  Worm explores that aspect excellently.

 

Also, one of the main reasons I like Worm, which hasn't been brought up yet,  is that it has the best power origin story I have ever seen, as well as the best power classification system in a setting where the powers weren't built around a specific classification system, such as Mistborn.  Classification systems are dang hard to construct, and most settings either give up on classification entirely, or have a system that tells you nothing about how powerful the being in question is beyond 'X level threat!'  

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

1 hour ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Not at first.  Taylor was wrong about all of the Undersiders, but Grue seemed okay.  Regent was decent.  Tattletale was a Thinker, so she had some doubts there.

But before too long, they're going on lovely buddy-buddy shopping sprees and having a grand old time as gal pals. Regent is, objectively speaking, a monster, but Taylor gives him a pass because he's on her side—and one of his most monstrous acts is portrayed as a super cool act of justice because it's against someone who was mean to Taylor. 

1 hour ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Isn't the profound lack of ulterior motives beyond the inherent bias that we all have towards our own ideas the thing that makes Cauldron so repulsive?

"Ulterior motives" is what makes us people.  Loyalty to friends, family, and the things we care about.  There are very few people who would not ultimately decide to sacrifice two strangers to save one person they love, even if they would carry the scar of their decision through the rest of their lives.

I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're getting at here. 

1 hour ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

I think Worm explores one aspect of morality extremely well; how far is too far when faced with the end of the world?  At what point does a .07% increase in chance of victory become not worth the costs?  Worm explores that aspect excellently.

Maybe so, but exploring one somewhat outlandish quandary well does not, in my mind, make up for the dozens more quandaries that were essentially settled with "Taylor was right and so the ends justify the means," to say nothing of those that were glossed over or dismissed altogether. 

1 hour ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Also, one of the main reasons I like Worm, which hasn't been brought up yet,  is that it has the best power origin story I have ever seen, as well as the best power classification system in a setting where the powers weren't built around a specific classification system, such as Mistborn.  Classification systems are dang hard to construct, and most settings either give up on classification entirely, or have a system that tells you nothing about how powerful the being in question is beyond 'X level threat!'  

Eh….the fact he explains it multiple times throughout the serial, and tweaks it each time, sort of made the classification system lose its luster for me. Besides, I'm more of a characters sort of reader. The classification system can be nonexistent and every single parahuman can have the power to blow up the universe for all I care, so long as the characters are well-developed and, if not likable, then at least interesting to read about. Taylor, the Undersiders, and most other characters in that serial were not story people I was eager to spend a lot of time with. 

[The Young Pyromancer]

6 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're getting at here.

I'm saying that having ulterior motives isn't a bad thing.

 

8 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

"Taylor was right and so the ends justify the means,"

Yes, they were answered with that, because the question of whether she was right and whether the end justifies the means is the point of the story.

 

9 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Eh….the fact he explains it multiple times throughout the serial, and tweaks it each time, sort of made the classification system lose its luster for me.

You got to remember, Worm was written over the course of two years, and readers forgot about its intricacies every six months or so.  Also, when he improved it, it's not like he could go back and edit it. He was basically writing with minimal editing.

 

12 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Besides, I'm more of a characters sort of reader.

Worm has all of about 3-5 characters I don't sympathize with.  If that's not good characterization, I don't know what is.  Sure, the major characters may not be much more characterized than the minor ones, but that is because almost everyone was the main character in one draft or another.

 

Before this friendly debate goes any further, I'd like to know this: Did you read the comments?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

6 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

I'm saying that having ulterior motives isn't a bad thing.

No, but it does mean that the characters aren't doing what they're doing out of the goodness of their hearts. It means they have their own reasons, and they're more liable to double-cross our protagonist when it's expedient for them. 

6 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Yes, they were answered with that, because the question of whether she was right and whether the end justifies the means is the point of the story.

No offense, but that's….kind of just a word salad. 

7 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

You got to remember, Worm was written over the course of two years, and readers forgot about its intricacies every six months or so.  Also, when he improved it, it's not like he could go back and edit it. He was basically writing with minimal editing.

The Harry Potter series was written over the course of ten years, and Rowling didn't spend a couple hundred or thousand words each book explaining how the magic worked all over again. Readers of that series had no trouble keeping up. 

I've written that way too, as have many authors of long-running fanfics. That's when you go back and read chapters you've already written, even if they make you cringe, to make sure you stay consistent. 

10 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Worm has all of about 3-5 characters I don't sympathize with.  If that's not good characterization, I don't know what is.  Sure, the major characters may not be much more characterized than the minor ones, but that is because almost everyone was the main character in one draft or another.

"I like the characters and so that's good characterization" doesn't hold water. I like Simple Plan, but that doesn't mean their music is particularly complex or challenging (it isn't). It just means I like the way it sounds. And again, look at Harry Potter. Even the most minor characters have intriguing backstories and are fleshed out enough to become the subjects of at least a handful of fanfics. Luna Lovegood didn't even show up until the fifth book, she had a couple of scenes, and became an instant sensation. A large cast is no barrier to character development. 

14 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Before this friendly debate goes any further, I'd like to know this: Did you read the comments?

No, and I don't think I should have to. What's in the story is the story. Everything else is extra until the author adds it to the story proper. If I had to read the entirety of Pottermore to properly understand and appreciate the Potter books, or if I had to read every single interview with Gerard Way to make sense of Umbrella Academy, I would consider that a failure of communication on the part of the creators. If the author wants something to be part of the story, they need to make it part of the story. They can't expect the audience to do homework in addition to regular reading. 

[breakingamber]

25 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Worm has all of about 3-5 characters I don't sympathize with.  If that's not good characterization, I don't know what is.  Sure, the major characters may not be much more characterized than the minor ones, but that is because almost everyone was the main character in one draft or another.

Quick nitpick: Jack Slash, Crawler, Winter, Crimson, (most of the rest of the cloned Slaughterhouse 9), Teacher, Custodian, Bakuda, Oni Lee, I kinda guess I probably shouldn't go on...

[Kobold King]

Me trying to follow a conversation about a superhero web serial I've never read:

 

Spoiler

 

[breakingamber]

1 minute ago, Kobold King said:

Me trying to follow a conversation about a superhero web serial I've never read:

 

  Hide contents

 

Bit of a topic change, I know, but have you decided on whether or not you'll be RPing a character and/or who?