Theory on Truthwatcher Spren

[Eris]

Hey this is my first forum post and I have so many questions regarding Renarin and the order of Truthwatchers. 

So I was looking through the Coppermind, seeing if I could figure out what Glys would have looked like before being corrupted then correlating it with other confirmed Truthwatcher spren which both apparently look like spots of light. However, this can't be the case because it has been confirmed that Venli's spren, Timbre, looks like a spot of light which has been confirmed to actually be a Willshaper spren, a Light spren. 

So if it isn't a Light spren, then what is it? Well I have two theories. One is simply that a Truthwatcher spren is a Star spren. It fits the mirror reflection theory in all but I don't fully believe that. So my second theory is that a Truthwatcher spren is related to Passion spren?

Hear my out. According the Coppermind, Passion spren look "like tiny flakes of crystalline snow, floated down in the air around them.” — The Way of Kings: Chapter Sixty-One[102] while Glys is described as taking "the form of a bright red crystalline structure, resembling a snowflake, which shimmers and drips light upwards." Pretty similar? Further, the Stump's spren looks like. "light reflected on a wall from a mirror." 

Each of these descriptions talk about light/ refraction of light but what I found interesting with Glys and Passion spren is that they are almost exactly the same but paralleled/ opposites. They both look like crystalline structures, like snow flakes but Glys is red to signify his corruption. Another note to make is Passion spren or their light go down while Glys' goes up, like a mirroring effect of possible corruption. I'm not necessarily saying Passion spren are Truthwatcher spren but it does fit. Even though Passion spren have only been seen in the romantic setting, I feel like a higher sort of Passion spren would be attracted to people who show passion towards finding the truth, searching for the truth, to learn and to help others through passion in learning.

(It has also been proven that Wind spren are attracted to Kaladin but Windrunner spren are Honour spren, same with Lift as in Life spren and Cultivation spren) 

I'd like to know what people think because I'm really curious to know more about Truthwatchers and Renarin. 

 

[Watchcry]

All I have to say is Timbre is always described as a comet. Not necessarily a light spren. Unless they are synonymous. 

[Eris]

That is a good point, I have a feeling a comet/ star/ light spren are most likely the same type of spren. Plus they don't "reflect". 

[Calderis]

Truthwatcher spren look like light reflected, and we don't have a name for them yet. Lightspren, or "Reachers," are Willshaper spren. 

We know very very little about Truthwatcher spren... But the order of Truthwatchers is described as very closed mouthed out of an abundance of tact... That's not a trait that I associate all that well with "passion" 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Calderis

[Eris]

Calderis what you say is correct that's why I thought maybe they are related to Passion spren because Truthwatchers weren't just tact but also interested in helping people with their knowledge which can come off as passionate. 

[RShara]

I believe the spren that Ym had was a Truthwatcher spren, and he described it pretty well. (It granted Progression, but clearly wasn't a cultivationspren.)

Quote

The spren had been coming more often lately—specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam. He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before.

It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows. When it moved again, those withdrew.

Quote

Ym brushed wooden scraps off the bench for later sweeping, then set the last on the bench near the spren. It shied away, like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.

He withdrew his hand and waited. The spren inched forward—tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts. Such an odd sight.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by RShara

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard!

As mentioned, Ym's spren (and the one Stump describes but which we don't see directly) are what a normal Truthwatcher's spren look like.

[Eris]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

I believe the spren that Ym had was a Truthwatcher spren, and he described it pretty well. (It granted Progression, but clearly wasn't a cultivationspren.)

 

Thank you for this description. So it is definitely some sort of crystal spren.

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Eris said:

Thank you for this description. So it is definitely some sort of crystal spren.

He says it's like the bits of light from a crystal, not that it was crystal. So little spots of light or rainbow, and little light-vines grow from it when it's stationary.

[Eris]

I meant like the spren is most likely made completely or partly of crystal, like shining a light on a crystal prism makes a rainbow. It also makes sense it has vine-like attributes because of the shared surges of progression.

[Dalakaar]

29 minutes ago, Eris said:

I meant like the spren is most likely made completely or partly of crystal

I don’t think there’s any crystal at all. No formation, just distorted light. 

[Eris]

2 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

I don’t think there’s any crystal at all. No formation, just distorted light. 

I am usually open to what people suggest but if it was just a light distortion, thus making it not a solid spren, that kind of goes against all the other radiant spren which to some extent to have a sort of structure. The spren may not be crystal but it sounds like something that can cause light distortion not is a light distortion. If that makes sense? 

[Dalakaar]

24 minutes ago, Eris said:

I am usually open to what people suggest but if it was just a light distortion, thus making it not a solid spren, that kind of goes against all the other radiant spren which to some extent to have a sort of structure. The spren may not be crystal but it sounds like something that can cause light distortion not is a light distortion. If that makes sense? 

Still disagree I’m afraid. Why do you assume it has to have a structure just because other spren do? I don’t see a rule there.

On the other hand Sanderson seems to really indicate it’s only light with, “really just a shimmer of light.”

 

[Eris]

@Dalakaar I respect your disagreement, it just seems weird that out of all of them, including the three bondsmith spren, that truthwatchers get the unique spren like that. Unless Sanderson twists it to mean they can see a spren's "truest form". 

[+Invocation]

27 minutes ago, Eris said:

@Dalakaar I respect your disagreement, it just seems weird that out of all of them, including the three bondsmith spren, that truthwatchers get the unique spren like that. Unless Sanderson twists it to mean they can see a spren's "truest form". 

Could just be that because of the Truthwatcher's whole theme being stuff that isn't completely concrete, their spren wouldn't be either. Possibly also they're like Cryptics that simply can't manifest a full body in the Physical Realm, not so much like honorspren that can be whatever or inkspren that are always humanoid (unless they're a Blade, of course).

[Eris]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Could just be that because of the Truthwatcher's whole theme being stuff that isn't completely concrete, their spren wouldn't be either. Possibly also they're like Cryptics that simply can't manifest a full body in the Physical Realm, not so much like honorspren that can be whatever or inkspren that are always humanoid (unless they're a Blade, of course).

That would make sense in the physical realm for them to be just light distortion but unless I'm misunderstanding the meaning, I don't think spren even in Shadesmar cannot have a real substance to them. I always thought of spren as the physical embodiment of emotions/ phenomena. (this all makes sense in my head but I'm sorry if I don't make sense in how I write)

[+Invocation]

Just now, Eris said:

That would make sense in the physical realm for them to be just light distortion but unless I'm misunderstanding the meaning, I don't think spren even in Shadesmar cannot have a real substance to them. I always thought of spren as the physical embodiment of emotions/ phenomena. (this all makes sense in my head but I'm sorry if I don't make sense in how I write)

I get what you're saying now, I just misunderstood which Realm we were talking about. My bad. In the Cognitive Realm, they might be crystal or liquid or something that would result in the pattern of refraction that manifests in the Physical, but we don't know, since we don't even know what that type of spren is called yet, so we probably haven't seen them in the Cognitive either.

[Eris]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

I get what you're saying now, I just misunderstood which Realm we were talking about. My bad. In the Cognitive Realm, they might be crystal or liquid or something that would result in the pattern of refraction that manifests in the Physical, but we don't know, since we don't even know what that type of spren is called yet, so we probably haven't seen them in the Cognitive either.

Gurl or dude, I'm very bad at explaining my thought processes due to ADD so I think too fast and then forget how I got to my conclusion. However I didn't specify either realm so don't feel bad. I just can't wait to know more about Truthwatcher spren and their order and how they work because I think Glys is doing his truthwatcher duty correctly but just has a little corruption included. 

[+Invocation]

4 minutes ago, Eris said:

Gurl or dude, I'm very bad at explaining my thought processes due to ADD so I think too fast and then forget how I got to my conclusion. However I didn't specify either realm so don't feel bad. I just can't wait to know more about Truthwatcher spren and their order and how they work because I think Glys is doing his truthwatcher duty correctly but just has a little corruption included. 

Don't worry, I'm ADD too, so I know that feeling. 

Glys more than likely is doing what he is supposed to on the Progression front, but considering how Sja-anat seems to like talking to Lightweavers and is in a sense doing what Shallan is, just on the other side (and, y'know, as a spren), so Illumination might be where the corruption comes through. Another popular theory is that there has always been at least one "corrupted" Truthwatcher spren each generation that bonds to someone, with the whole "forseeing the future comes from the Unmade" thing being nestled into Honor's (mostly) magic system.

[Eris]

2 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Don't worry, I'm ADD too, so I know that feeling. 

Glys more than likely is doing what he is supposed to on the Progression front, but considering how Sja-anat seems to like talking to Lightweavers and is in a sense doing what Shallan is, just on the other side (and, y'know, as a spren), so Illumination might be where the corruption comes through. Another popular theory is that there has always been at least one "corrupted" Truthwatcher spren each generation that bonds to someone, with the whole "forseeing the future comes from the Unmade" thing being nestled into Honor's (mostly) magic system.

Slight OB spoilers

Okay I like that second theory a lot and makes a lot of sense however I feel like Renarin can't use Illumination not because of Glys being corrupted but because of Renarin's autism. Though mild, it does effect a persons ability to be imaginative (because they are too logical in their thinking) which is what illumination is. Also I think those lights that Renarin makes in oathbringer, seems like illumination because it doesn't fit at all with progression

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Eris said:

Slight OB spoilers

Okay I like that second theory a lot and makes a lot of sense however I feel like Renarin can't use Illumination not because of Glys being corrupted but because of Renarin's autism. Though mild, it does effect a persons ability to be imaginative (because they are too logical in their thinking) which is what illumination is. Also I think those lights that Renarin makes in oathbringer, seems like illumination because it doesn't fit at all with progression

Were the stained glass future things visible to other people? I thought that was just him seeing it. Also, the corruption wouldn't so much be that he couldn't use it, just that it would manifest differently and have a different way of being used than Shallan's stuff, which is slightly shown in that Shallan tried to show him how to use it and he couldn't make it work. I do agree that Renarin's autism will have some major impacts on his Illumination.

[Eris]

I'm not sure about the windows but it could be illumination that only he sees because remember, each order uses the surgers slightly different compared to other orders. This also goes together with the corruption manifesting differently to Shallans. To me Renarin is a very interesting character and even falls in the category that Lift is in, in that they are different to the others. HOwever, unlike Lift, Renarin I feel like plays a more important role than we realise. I read somewhere that Sanderson fleshed out Renarin's character before making Adolin, I feel like there is something missing we just don't have. 

[StrikerEZ]

17 hours ago, Eris said:

I am usually open to what people suggest but if it was just a light distortion, thus making it not a solid spren, that kind of goes against all the other radiant spren which to some extent to have a sort of structure. The spren may not be crystal but it sounds like something that can cause light distortion not is a light distortion. If that makes sense? 

I mean, the highspren, the spren for the Skybreakers, are just rips in the sky that show stars. That’s not very solid to me. So there’s definitely precedence for it. 

As for Renarin and Glys, I definitely think that his visions are either something related to the fact that Glys is corrupted, or are the resonance between his normal Progression surge and his voidbinding Illumination surge. He has no control over the visions or when they come, and it doesn’t even seem like he takes in stormlight to fuel them, which would be necessary if it was surge/voidbinding. 

And I totally agree that Renarin and Lift are gonna be really special in this series. Including Venli and Dalinar, there are several new types of Radiants this Desolation, which is exactly what team Honor needs.

[Eris]

2 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I mean, the highspren, the spren for the Skybreakers, are just rips in the sky that show stars. That’s not very solid to me. So there’s definitely precedence for it. 

As for Renarin and Glys, I definitely think that his visions are either something related to the fact that Glys is corrupted, or are the resonance between his normal Progression surge and his voidbinding Illumination surge. He has no control over the visions or when they come, and it doesn’t even seem like he takes in stormlight to fuel them, which would be necessary if it was surge/voidbinding. 

And I totally agree that Renarin and Lift are gonna be really special in this series. Including Venli and Dalinar, there are several new types of Radiants this Desolation, which is exactly what team Honor needs.

They're rips in the sky revealing something so an unnatural phenomena which yeah isn't solid but are they like that in the cognitive realm? (I'm a few pages off finishing Oathbringer). The unusual nature of renarin's power is most likely voidbringing but I refuse to believe it (even if it is the most likely scenario).

But as you said with Lift, Renarin, Venli and Danilar they are going to be very unique in terms of radiants

[+Invocation]

52 minutes ago, Eris said:

They're rips in the sky revealing something so an unnatural phenomena which yeah isn't solid but are they like that in the cognitive realm?

We haven't seen them in the Cognitive yet, but Jasnah has talked to them, so they can at the very least speak somehow. Not a clue either way based on that, though, since Pattern can talk without an actual mouth.

 

18 hours ago, Eris said:

I'm not sure about the windows but it could be illumination that only he sees because remember, each order uses the surgers slightly different compared to other orders. This also goes together with the corruption manifesting differently to Shallans. To me Renarin is a very interesting character and even falls in the category that Lift is in, in that they are different to the others. HOwever, unlike Lift, Renarin I feel like plays a more important role than we realise. I read somewhere that Sanderson fleshed out Renarin's character before making Adolin, I feel like there is something missing we just don't have. 

It is also possible that the foresight is just Renarin's resonance, the way Kaladin's is having a ton of squires. Renarin is one of the more interesting characters, to be sure, in addition to him being majorly important, to the point that Brando Sando has admitted that he is the important Kholin brother and that he hadn't fleshed out Adolin at all. Adolin was just a surprise character that he liked the perspective from, like you noted. Renarin absolutely is important (my money is on he ends up brokering something between the sides), and I'm excited to see more.