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SwordNimiForPresident

Power Gain vs. Investiture Level

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Sorry if there is already a topic discussing this, I tried searching the forums but couldn't find it.

 

Does the amount of power that an Allomancer gains from a certain amount of metal depend on their Investiture level or is it fixed. For example, if Vin and Elend were both to swallow an equal amount of pewter and burn it at full flare, would Elend run out faster? or would they burn at the same speed and Elend would simply gain more power from the same amount of metal?

Thanks in advance

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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Both. Allomantic strength come from both increased burn rate and increased efficiency. 

Quote

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

source

 

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Wow that's interesting. Wouldn't that mean that there is an exponential gain in power over time with increased Investiture? Example: You tap a Nicrosilmind and increase your Investiture level for all of the Allomantic metals to double what it usually is. You can now burn twice as much metal in the same amount of time and get twice as much power as usual resulting in four times as much total power over time. The numbers are just hypothetical, it would still work even if doubling your Investiture only increased burn rate and efficiency by a fraction. Depending on the actual rate of increase you could quickly reach a level where you're getting thousands of times the normal power from your metals.

Imagine a Mistborn with Hemalurgic F-Nicrosil who walks around storing constantly for years. They could unleash steel pushes that could knock a planet off its axis. Cough.. Kelsier

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14 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Wow that's interesting. Wouldn't that mean that there is an exponential gain in power over time with increased Investiture? Example: You tap a Nicrosilmind and increase your Investiture level for all of the Allomantic metals to double what it usually is. You can now burn twice as much metal in the same amount of time and get twice as much power as usual resulting in four times as much total power over time. The numbers are just hypothetical, it would still work even if doubling your Investiture only increased burn rate and efficiency by a fraction. Depending on the actual rate of increase you could quickly reach a level where you're getting thousands of times the normal power from your metals.

Imagine a Mistborn with Hemalurgic F-Nicrosil who walks around storing constantly for years. They could unleash steel pushes that could knock a planet off its axis. Cough.. Kelsier

Nicrosil and Duralumin in Allomancy and Feruchemy (particularly with Compounding) have some major issues in terms of breaking the systems. We likely won't know much more about how either of them work until Era 3, since we'll have a Nicrosil Misting for a main character. But yes, that could be done if you had enough steel once you hit the theoretical maximum efficiency, which really is only there because Preservation is currently being held. Technically, because of how the magics on Scadrial manifest with relation to their Shards, Steelpushes that move planets was really what The Lord Ruler and Sazed did to fix their issues, which is partially why TLR had so many issues with control when there wasn't a reference point he could see.

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Wax and Marasi at "Mistpoint" make me think that's just not possible. Above a certain level the body can't contain the investiture and you just waste the excess. 

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8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Wax and Marasi at "Mistpoint" make me think that's just not possible. Above a certain level the body can't contain the investiture and you just waste the excess. 

Good point. I guess it’s a bit like stormlight in that way.

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13 hours ago, Calderis said:

Wax and Marasi at "Mistpoint" make me think that's just not possible. Above a certain level the body can't contain the investiture and you just waste the excess. 

This also creates a hardcap for all feruchemy, including compounding. Fans have always thrown around the idea that a compounder can gain an infinite quanitiy of a trait, and I still think that's theoretically possible, but that doesn't mean they can use an infinite amount in one moment.

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12 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

What is "Mistpoint?"

It's what Calderis has decided to call when someone is using enough investiture that they radiate mist.

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Posted (edited)

On 12/31/2018 at 9:44 AM, tmnsquirtle said:

What is "Mistpoint?"

Wasn't actually my term. @Oversleep coined it I believe.

As @HSuperLee said, it's the point at which your so heavily invested through allomancy/Feruchemy that your body can't contain the Investiture and it begins to leak out of you.

Edited by Calderis
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18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wasn't actually my term. @Oversleep coined it I believe.

As @HSuperLee said, it's the point at which your so heavily invested through allomancy/Feruchemy that your body can't contain the Investiture and it begins to leak out of you.

I've been off the forums for a while, but my general recollection was that the prevailing theory was that "pushing" past "mistpoint" would gradually result in increasingly greater damage to the allomancer's spiritweb unless Sazed decided to relinquish control of Harmony to them (which probably wouldn't happen). This would essentially cap any allomantic expression of power, either human or mechanized, by causing the conduit channeling the power to dematerialize once the threads of its spiritweb were shredded/consumed/separated/vaporized/ect.

In a nutshell: allomancy can't be broken to create infinite or insane power loops because doing so would vaporize the user, be it man or machine. (Caveat: except if Harmony is dropped)

Has any of that been canonized or fallen out of favor?

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@hwiles that's pretty much it yeah. I mean if you're using enough power that your leaking mists, what's going on inside has to be at least approaching what Vin did in pulling in the mists.

Power at high levels can be dangerous. We've been told this in multiple stories. I have no doubt pushing things past mistpoint on any kind of a regular basis would quickly cause savantism and/or Physical/Spiritual degeneration and death. 

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Sorry to keep distracting the thread, but does this imply that surgebinders are at mistpoint? Or is the stormlight leaking from them just a side-effect of their fuel being naturally gaseous?

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Sorry to keep distracting the thread, but does this imply that surgebinders are at mistpoint? Or is the stormlight leaking from them just a side-effect of their fuel being naturally gaseous?

That's more about the nature of Stormlight itself, which innately wants to leak out and return to the Investiture cycle/ecosystem of Roshar, as compared to say Breaths that naturally like to stick to things.
EDIT: Spoilered the WOB because it's long

 

Spoiler

Argent

Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--except Breaths seem to stick to things better--

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Argent

--than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening?

Brandon Sanderson

Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense?

Argent

Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right?

Argent

And when you lash things it's temporary--

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works.

Argent

Can they just hold it better?

Brandon Sanderson

They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but--

Argent

Like the black sphere for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Well we are not going to... The black sphere is something different. You guys have guessed what the black sphere is, right?

Argent

Well we have some ideas. I support that it holds an Unmade. Am I wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not going to answer that.

Argent

But you said--

Brandon Sanderson

I'm just curious what the theories are. Book 3 the black sphere is-- Everyone who reads the books will know what the black sphere is by the end of Book 3.

source

 

 

 

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Edited by Quantus
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On 1.01.2019 at 7:08 PM, Calderis said:

Wasn't actually my term. @Oversleep coined it I believe.

Indeed I did. I even have the relevant thread in my sig (look down) :ph34r:

This thread reminds me how happy I was to finally get that WoB about Allomantic strength and what it entails...

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