Aspiring Writer Posted October 1, 2020 Report Share Posted October 1, 2020 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: Any death that can be properly executed is worth it. ... WHAT?! Dude, no, nonononononnonononono. Not every death is worth it. For god's sake, watch GoT S8 to see what I mean. Not every death is worth it, as it narratively cuts off their arc, it can seem meaningless, and can take away from other characters who are close to them. Not every death is worth it at that moment. It can disrupt the entire story. I can see the appeal of a story where you may have a main character die at any time, both those often have plenty of main characters to kill, are incredibly large, and have plenty of side characters to either grow into main characters or help build up certain relationships. It does not work in these contexts, and deaths are not always worth it. yes, stakes are raised in turn, but it also can cut one's sense of disbelief and the smoothness of the narrative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted October 1, 2020 Report Share Posted October 1, 2020 8 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said: ... WHAT?! Dude, no, nonononononnonononono. Not every death is worth it. For god's sake, watch GoT S8 to see what I mean. Not every death is worth it, as it narratively cuts off their arc, it can seem meaningless, and can take away from other characters who are close to them. Not every death is worth it at that moment. It can disrupt the entire story. I can see the appeal of a story where you may have a main character die at any time, both those often have plenty of main characters to kill, are incredibly large, and have plenty of side characters to either grow into main characters or help build up certain relationships. It does not work in these contexts, and deaths are not always worth it. yes, stakes are raised in turn, but it also can cut one's sense of disbelief and the smoothness of the narrative. I don't know about you but having a story where the characters don't have more plot armor than Russia in winter sounds pretty good to me. And yes deaths are wasteful that's what makes them good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted October 1, 2020 Report Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Frustration said: I don't know about you but having a story where the characters don't have more plot armor than Russia in winter sounds pretty good to me. I agree, having less plot armor is better. It makes you engaged in the story and makes you constantly on edge about what happens. It's difficult, but it's the goal of every writer to eliminate plot armor as much as possible. 2 hours ago, Frustration said: And yes deaths are wasteful that's what makes them good. Hate to sound like a broken record, but I disagree. Being wasteful isn't what makes them good. What makes them good is that they make the characters (And you) face loss, raising the stakes because death to the character is the universal way to create tension in stories. The character's death needs to invoke change in other characters i some way, and if not then change the plot in some way, and you have to make sure that change is going in a good direction (Good in a narrative sense, not good for the character's). A wasteful death is a bad death. By wasteful, I think you mean it cuts someone's narrative arc off, but to cut someone's arc off, it has to either be to forwarding the plot or forwarding someone else's arc. Every death must have some purpose, even if it's just to have the bad guy get them out of the way so they don't bother them, therefore forwarding the plot and the bad guy's plan. If a death has no point, don't do it, wait, there will be a better opportunity. (If any death or survival of death is contrived, I'm against it, btw. I am never advocating to let a character survive a situation they should definitely be dead from. That's crem dung and everyone should avoid it.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smye Posted October 1, 2020 Report Share Posted October 1, 2020 Dalinar - I don't see him ascending. It's just too storming obvious of a Chekov's gun at this point... Szeth, however... if any of our current 5 are going to ascend, that would fit the thematic trend of the tortured becoming enlightened and ascending (see Sazed). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 12 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said: I agree, having less plot armor is better. It makes you engaged in the story and makes you constantly on edge about what happens. It's difficult, but it's the goal of every writer to eliminate plot armor as much as possible. Hate to sound like a broken record, but I disagree. Being wasteful isn't what makes them good. What makes them good is that they make the characters (And you) face loss, raising the stakes because death to the character is the universal way to create tension in stories. The character's death needs to invoke change in other characters i some way, and if not then change the plot in some way, and you have to make sure that change is going in a good direction (Good in a narrative sense, not good for the character's). A wasteful death is a bad death. By wasteful, I think you mean it cuts someone's narrative arc off, but to cut someone's arc off, it has to either be to forwarding the plot or forwarding someone else's arc. Every death must have some purpose, even if it's just to have the bad guy get them out of the way so they don't bother them, therefore forwarding the plot and the bad guy's plan. If a death has no point, don't do it, wait, there will be a better opportunity. (If any death or survival of death is contrived, I'm against it, btw. I am never advocating to let a character survive a situation they should definitely be dead from. That's crem dung and everyone should avoid it.) I did say that can be done correctly (or something to that effect) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Frustration said: I did say that can be done correctly (or something to that effect) I don't believe you did. But if you did and I didn't notice, my bad. I just feel you make it appear that not killing the main characters is a crutch when it's a very delicate art that's hard to do right, especially when it's not crafted that way. Also, hope you're not too busy. You're fun to talk to. 11 hours ago, Smye said: Dalinar - I don't see him ascending. It's just too storming obvious of a Chekov's gun at this point... Szeth, however... if any of our current 5 are going to ascend, that would fit the thematic trend of the tortured becoming enlightened and ascending (see Sazed). Actually... that's storming brilliant! (And yes, I actually used storming!) Szeth is probably the most honor-bound character in the entire story. He would make a perfect vessel for the Shard of Honor, though I'm not sure how that would work since Daliner is bonded to the storm father currently. Maybe he will die and the stormfather will bond with Szeth then? But Szeth is mostly a follower. not sure he would be the best choice from a leader perspective. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said: I don't believe you did. But if you did and I didn't notice, my bad. I just feel you make it appear that not killing the main characters is a crutch when it's a very delicate art that's hard to do right, especially when it's not crafted that way. Also, hope you're not too busy. You're fun to talk to. Thanks man Here's what I said On 9/30/2020 at 10:03 PM, Frustration said: Any death that can be properly executed is worth it. Edited October 2, 2020 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, Frustration said: Thanks man Here's what I said Ah. So, you did say that. I will mention you also said this. On 10/1/2020 at 6:14 AM, Frustration said: And yes deaths are wasteful that's what makes them good. So I think you can see my confusion. Also, damnation, did you just go through all your posts to find that? Thanks, dude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, Aspiring Writer said: Ah. So, you did say that. I will mention you also said this. Yeah, that's a little confusing, what I meant by that was if a character has nothing to contribute in the future anyway then killing them is just a formality. 2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said: So I think you can see my confusion. Also, damnation, did you just go through all your posts to find that? Thanks, dude. Well I saw that you had quoted that perticular post at the top of this page so I simply went to the bottom of the last one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, Frustration said: Yeah, that's a little confusing, what I meant by that was if a character has nothing to contribute in the future anyway then killing them is just a formality. Well I saw that you had quoted that perticular post at the top of this page so I simply went to the bottom of the last one. Ah, I see. Now I am enlightened in both areas. Yeah, if a character has nothing to contribute, die. Die all the way. Otherwise, they take up space. That or make them a background character. Also, impressive response time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danex Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 Somebodies definitely gonna die in book 4. Adolin is definitely gonna be dead by the end of book 5. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbondsmith Posted October 17, 2020 Report Share Posted October 17, 2020 This is based on a reaction I'm having towards a certain other fantasy series, but I'd kind of like to see Adolin injured in such a way that his dueling is taken from him and he can't be healed. Perhaps he's hurt and stranded and has to come to terms with his disability while returning to Urithiru to the point that he accepts it as part of who he is and Renarin's healing isn't able to affect him. I trained in martial arts for the past 18 years, but injuries have piled up and I had to call time on it. I struggled a lot with the decision (and still struggle with it now), so I'd like to see stories of warriors who can no longer be warriors. Yes, Dalinar stepped back from open battle, but he's still capable of ridiculous feats. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllNsickly Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 To be perfectly honest, I only expect Lift, Renarin, Jasnah and perhaps a handful of ancillary characters to survive into the Back Five. The ancillary Characters will become Main, but I don’t think that many of the Main Contingent can survive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Use the Falchion Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 Szeth, Dalinar, and one second-gen Kholins are the highest on my "to die" counters. Szeth will die because death is the best thing for him. He wants to be released from life throughout most of WoK and WoR; and by OB the man refuses to let himself enjoy much of anything. To him, I think death will be the happy ending. Dalinar if only because Spoiler I fully expect Harmony to somehow absorb what remains of Honor and possibly even Cultivation, and I don't think Dalinar will survive the process. One of the Kholins...I can't say. I don't think all three second-gen Kholins will live to the end. One will become the head of House Kholin (whatever that looks like in the future), one will probably become a world-hopper, and one will die. The odds on which will be which is pretty evenly split. If Jasnah dies, I can see Adolin giving up his position as heir of House Kholin and becoming a full-fledged world-hopper with Shallan. If Adolin or Renarin die, then Jasnah becomes the world-hopper and the other, living brother takes over House Kholin. Granted, I don't want any of them to die, but I also can't see all of them surviving right now... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valigus Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 11 hours ago, IllNsickly said: To be perfectly honest, I only expect Lift, Renarin, Jasnah and perhaps a handful of ancillary characters to survive into the Back Five. The ancillary Characters will become Main, but I don’t think that many of the Main Contingent can survive. Yeah kaladin has to either lose syl or die because in any other situation he is just too big and too important of a character to let live, it’s kinda hard to build up tension when it’s like well why didn’t kaladin just show up to fight the enemy champion and easily beat him. Kaladin turns around every situation he is in he fought an unmade and something like dozen plus fused at once while distracted and almost won, a character like that can’t just be left around. However I heard rumors of a second kaladin book in the back five so I think it’s possible that 1. kaladin becomes world hopper to go find allies to defeat odium, this is kinda foreshadowed by the recent prequel chapter and his newfound higher degree of cosmere awareness 2. kaladin helps reforge the oathpact, this takes him and dalinar probably out of the picture for the required time. 3. This is personally my favorite because I think it means the best with his arc and it’s that syl is consumed doing something like potentially sealing an unmade, potentially dalinar also does around the same time, then if dalinar dies kaladin takes up the stormfather and takes dalinar a role, this is the one I like the most and actually seems foreshadowed by the way kaladins and dalinars leaderships is described throughout the books especially rythm of war. It also works best with kaladins character arc especially if he allows or even orders the sacrifice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinkoln Posted October 18, 2020 Report Share Posted October 18, 2020 I think that Shallan will die, and I am perfectly fine with that. Her powers could accomplish so much, but she restricts herself with her personalities and the crutch of drawing what she wants to Lightweave. Also, she is whiny. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vessel of Theory Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 I could see Dalinar dying, or being somehow removed from Roshar's Physical plane. I'm betting Kaladin's dad is going to die. I think Szeth might do a Hrathen-style death, in the second arc, to save/help Dalinar or the Radiants somehow. If he doesn't die, could he become a Marsh-style character, due to his Connection to Dalinar and his being Radiant? Side question, does Stormlight make you functionally immortal? Not sure, but if it repairs the body, couldn't you theoretically live forever if you had enough of it? I can see Adolin dying, or Renarin, or Shallan, but only one of them. I doubt Navani would die, she's just too important for the future of Roshar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacitus Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 I can see Vyre either living forever or dying in book seven. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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