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Star Wars Ep 9 The Rise of Skywalker


Briar King

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8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Okay, so, Luke found out he was the son of Darth Vader, one of the most evil people in the galaxy. We see him, despite everything he did to him and everyone in the galaxy, try and turn Darth Vader, to make him come back to the Light. He held out hope even as he was dying by the emperor's hand. he felt it was better to try and die, hoping he could rescue Vader than to kill him.

Fast forward to TLJ, we see him see the darkness and Kylo, and rather than try and talk with hi, to hold out hope and try and keep him in the light like he had with someone guilty of killing millions, he ignites his lightsaber. Did he strike, no, but If I constantly thought about killing myself and then grabbed a knife and put it against my arm, that is more than just consideration. It's out of character from what we know and the fact he thought eh could change Luke's character with less than two minutes of flashbacks of the same scene is ridiculous. 

You're missing the reflex

If I have a reflex to punch when surprised, and someone who has suffered physical abuse surprises me and I punch them, you bet there'd be fallout. Was my reflex wrong? No. Was their reaction wrong? No. It's no one's fault, it just is. 

Likewise, that is what happened here. Luke saw the darkness and lit his lightsaber as a reflex. The moment passed, and before he could put it away and talk with Ben, the kid woke up and freaked out

This has nothing to do with Luke thinking that he couldn't change Ben if given the chance, because he was never given the chance. That's the whole point. And when Luke does confront Ben, he realizes that unlike Vader, Kylo doesn't want to change. Had Luke turned off his lightsaber in time, we'd be seeing a different story. 

Edited by Use the Falchion
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2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

You're missing the reflex

If I have a reflex to punch when surprised, and someone who has suffered physical abuse surprises me and I punch them, you bet there'd be fallout. Was my reflex wrong? No. Was their reaction wrong? No. It's no one's fault, it just is. 

Likewise, that is what happened here. Luke saw the darkness and lit his lightsaber as a reflex. The moment passed, and before he could put it away and talk with Ben, the kid woke up and freaked out

This has nothing to do with Luke thinking that he couldn't change Ben if given the chance, because he was never given the chance. That's the whole point. And when Luke does confront Ben, he realizes that unlike his father, Kylo doesn't want to change. Had Luke turned off his lightsaber in time, we'd be seeing a different story. 

A reflex to punch something and igniting a weapon that can slice people in half are not equivalent. That's like me saying there's no difference between getting into a fighting stance and taking out your gun and moving it off safety.

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

A reflex to punch something and igniting a weapon that can slice people in half are not equivalent. That's like me saying there's no difference between getting into a fighting stance and taking out your gun and moving it off safety.

If you've been trained to move it off safety because you've been fighting in combat zones for decades, and then the person next to you immediately sets off those "this person is a threat to my life" reflex, I can imagine it being the same. It's the type of training that you're looking at, not the reflex. But  they're both reflexes of self defense, and reflexes to take down someone who's a threat. It's muscle memory, and you bet your but it can be trained and used to take a weapon out for self-defense. But you're missing the forest for the trees. The point is that Luke, being a Jedi who has fought Sith, Knights of Ren, and other various creatures and villains throughout his life, had a moment of pure self-defense reflex that he's trained himself to have. Kylo took that self defense reflex to mean assault and freaked out. 

If you want to continue missing the forest for the trees be my guest: how many times have you missed an exit when driving or exited too soon, because you were distracted by something else and your body went on autopilot, taking you down a path you know by instinct? How many times have you turned right to go to a familiar store when you meant to go left? How many times have you been so caught up in your head that your body goes on autopilot? 

 

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7 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

If you've been trained to move it off safety because you've been fighting in combat zones for decades, and then the person next to you immediately sets off those "this person is a threat to my life" reflex, I can imagine it being the same. It's the type of training that you're looking at, not the reflex. But  they're both reflexes of self defense, and reflexes to take down someone who's a threat. It's muscle memory, and you bet your but it can be trained and used to take a weapon out for self-defense. But you're missing the forest for the trees. The point is that Luke, being a Jedi who has fought Sith, Knights of Ren, and other various creatures and villains throughout his life, had a moment of pure self-defense reflex that he's trained himself to have. Kylo took that self defense reflex to mean assault and freaked out. 

If you want to continue missing the forest for the trees be my guest: how many times have you missed an exit when driving or exited too soon, because you were distracted by something else and your body went on autopilot, taking you down a path you know by instinct? How many times have you turned right to go to a familiar store when you meant to go left? How many times have you been so caught up in your head that your body goes on autopilot? 

 

Wait, no, he admitted he thought he should kill him. He admits to Rey he saw things and for a moment thought he should kill his nephew to the point of igniting his weapon. That is more than just reflex, he contemplated that crap.

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The Luke issue could be fixed thusly: Instead of Luke standing over Kylo with a lightsaber and murderous eyes like a jack a (giving Kylo that final push to the dark side), his failure should have been that, despite his trainings, Kylo joined with Snoke and came back with the Knights of Ren to destroy Luke's school. 

That would still fit in with Luke's "the jedi failed" mentality and could be seen as a more logical inciting event to his hermitage. 

Sure, people would still complain. This is Star Wars, I remembered when the prequels were nearly reviled universally. But it would be better, I think. 

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1 minute ago, Ooklara said:

The Luke issue could be fixed thusly: Instead of Luke standing over Kylo with a lightsaber and murderous eyes like a jack a (giving Kylo that final push to the dark side), his failure should have been that, despite his trainings, Kylo joined with Snoke and came back with the Knights of Ren to destroy Luke's school. 

That would still fit in with Luke's "the jedi failed" mentality and could be seen as a more logical inciting event to his hermitage. 

Sure, people would still complain. This is Star Wars, I remembered when the prequels were nearly reviled universally. But it would be better, I think. 

yeah, that would be better, as that actually uses a trait that helped him turn his father, his greatest victory, and turn on its head to turn Kylo, his greatest shame. We could say that after turning Vader, he thought he could keep Kylo in the light, that it would be easy, and then realized his mistake only after all his students were dead. it would fit how his character would react to his own nephew, and really hit home why he blamed himself.

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1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Wait, no, he admitted he thought he should kill him. He admits to Rey he saw things and for a moment thought he should kill his nephew to the point of igniting his weapon. That is more than just reflex, he contemplated that crap.

Luke

Quote

I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow...and I was left with shame...and with consequences. 

Those aren't the thoughts of someone who actively went out to kill someone. Those are the thoughts of someone who had a gut reaction, and let it pass, but not soon enough. 

 

1 hour ago, Ooklara said:

The Luke issue could be fixed thusly: Instead of Luke standing over Kylo with a lightsaber and murderous eyes like a jack a (giving Kylo that final push to the dark side), his failure should have been that, despite his trainings, Kylo joined with Snoke and came back with the Knights of Ren to destroy Luke's school. 

That would still fit in with Luke's "the jedi failed" mentality and could be seen as a more logical inciting event to his hermitage. 

Sure, people would still complain. This is Star Wars, I remembered when the prequels were nearly reviled universally. But it would be better, I think. 

I like your idea, I really do! Heck, a big part of me would prefer it. But I think it would undercut the message of TLJ. TLJ is about failure. Luke failed as a teacher and a mentor. Poe failed as a leader. Finn failed his mission, as did Rey. And Kylo failed to corrupt or kill Rey, destroy the Jedi, and win the war. But it's about what we do when we fail that matters. Luke gave up, and it was the wrong move. But he got a chance to get back up and do better. Like another character from another certain piece of work that came out late 2017, Luke has to take responsibility for what he's done. 

But yes, your version would easily be the better, less controversial one. And I like that fact. 

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10 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Luke

Those aren't the thoughts of someone who actively went out to kill someone. Those are the thoughts of someone who had a gut reaction, and let it pass, but not soon enough. 

 

I like your idea, I really do! Heck, a big part of me would prefer it. But I think it would undercut the message of TLJ. TLJ is about failure. Luke failed as a teacher and a mentor. Poe failed as a leader. Finn failed his mission, as did Rey. And Kylo failed to corrupt or kill Rey, destroy the Jedi, and win the war. But it's about what we do when we fail that matters. Luke gave up, and it was the wrong move. But he got a chance to get back up and do better. Like another character from another certain piece of work that came out late 2017, Luke has to take responsibility for what he's done. 

But yes, your version would easily be the better, less controversial one. And I like that fact. 

Other people would argue that his gut reaction should have been to help him, not kill him. And you can't argue that they could have at least done more building up to that moment, showing this darkness in kylo, showing Luke growing concerned, something, not just saying it.

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22 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Other people would argue that his gut reaction should have been to help him, not kill him.

I'd argue that those people need to remember how Luke behaves in the OT, and see if this lines up. Because to me, it does. Luke's gut reaction has always been to protect those he loves. That's why he went off to save Leia and Han in ESB despite the warnings of Obi-Wan and Yoda. That's why he freaked out against Vader in ROTJ when Leia was mentioned, despite seeing the good in him. This was the same, but on a smaller scale and far more destructive. Luke didn't freak out because he saw just the darkness that he'd been fighting, but the death of those he loved. 

 

22 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

And you can't argue that they could have at least done more building up to that moment, showing this darkness in kylo, showing Luke growing concerned, something, not just saying it.

Not really, but I also don't think that was a job for the movie. When in the movie would they have time to explore that? Would it be in a flashback monologue? If so, why not just compress all of that knowledge into one scene?*  Would it be explored throughout the movie? If so, why? Whose storyline would that serve? 

That sort of thing is for EU material to explore post-TLJ, as Kylo's increasing corruption had little to do with the story at hand, and for a story like that we'd need more time than the movie can (and I'd argue should) give. Sadly the best we have right now is Charles Soule's Rise of Kylo Ren comic series. I've heard it's good, but...well, my interest in the Knights of Ren mostly went down the drain after TROS... (It also retconned what TFA and TLJ said about Kylo running off with a few of Luke's other students, implying he wasn't the only former apprentice who was a Knight of Ren.)

I think TLJ did an interesting move by exploring the idea of perspectives and "a certain point of view" ala Rashomon with what happened that night. 

 

1 minute ago, Ooklara said:

@Use the Falchion Luke would still have failed because Kylo would still have gone to the dark side. He would have just failed in a way more in step with his established character.

And I'd argue what happened was in line with Luke's character. Like I mention above, Luke has always been one to immediately, instinctively, and aggressively rush to the protection of his loved ones. This is Luke's fatal flaw, as it leaves him open to the Dark Side and prone to anger and mistakes. (The ferocity of which Luke acts, not the acting itself.)

So let's play out a scenario: Luke, finds out about how someone he cares for who's been corrupted by the Dark Side has the potential and the capability to destroy what the Jedi loves. Luke, propelled by the need to protect that loved one, aggressively (and quite justifiably) lashes out, brandishing his green lightsaber to strike down evil. But as his enemy lays before him, Luke realizes who he is lashing out against, and feels nothing but shame and remorse.

Is Luke about to finish off Vader or about to attack Kylo Ren in my scenario?

The main difference is that with Kylo, there was no time to stop and explain, because Kylo saw Luke as an aggressor and freaked out. To quote the oft-memed phrase, "it's like poetry; it rhymes," this time once for comedy (in the Greco-Roman "happy ending" sense) and once for tragedy. 

 

To help solidify my point, here's the clip from ROTJ. I'd skip to the 4 minute mark, as that's where my point is made. Even against those he loves, if those loved ones threaten other loved ones, Luke snaps. 

 

 

*...oh wait, they did. 

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46 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Not really, but I also don't think that was a job for the movie. When in the movie would they have time to explore that? Would it be in a flashback monologue? If so, why not just compress all of that knowledge into one scene?*  Would it be explored throughout the movie? If so, why? Whose storyline would that serve? 

That sort of thing is for EU material to explore post-TLJ, as Kylo's increasing corruption had little to do with the story at hand, and for a story like that we'd need more time than the movie can (and I'd argue should) give. Sadly the best we have right now is Charles Soule's Rise of Kylo Ren comic series. I've heard it's good, but...well, my interest in the Knights of Ren mostly went down the drain after TROS... (It also retconned what TFA and TLJ said about Kylo running off with a few of Luke's other students, implying he wasn't the only former apprentice who was a Knight of Ren.)

I think TLJ did an interesting move by exploring the idea of perspectives and "a certain point of view" ala Rashomon with what happened that night.

I'm not going to argue the luke point, I have stuff to do, but the point of a movie is to explain what happens in the movie. If it requires other material to make the movie work, then it fails as a movie, as the writing cannot hold on it's own and needs something to fix it. getting a back story on the cave on dagobah is something that can be in the EU. it doesn't need o be explain why the cave is magic or special. We do need to know how Luke got to the point where he might consider murdering his nephew. That is the movies fault that we didn't get more on that, so it doesn't get credit if it's expanded on. 

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Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

I'm not going to argue the luke point, I have stuff to do, but the point of a movie is to explain what happens in the movie. If it requires other material to make the movie work, then it fails as a movie, as the writing cannot hold on it's own and needs something to fix it. getting a back story on the cave on dagobah is something that can be in the EU. it doesn't need o be explain why the cave is magic or special. We do need to know how Luke got to the point where he might consider murdering his nephew. That is the movies fault that we didn't get more on that, so it doesn't get credit if it's expanded on. 

First off, good luck on your stuff. This has been an interesting distraction to all of my papers, projects, and work as well, so thanks for that.


I guess my closing points: Ask yourself: "what did the movie require to tell its story?" That's a different question from "what did want to see?" But we often confuse and conflate the two. Do I want to see Snoke corrupting Ben? Absolutely. But are these scenes important to the story? If so, how? What do they add? Who is benefiting from this information, and why? What is the narrative these scenes fit into? And I'll warn you, from one aspiring writer to another, we have to be incredibly careful about the information and knowledge you're putting in for the audience versus the characters. If the characters don't need the info, think twice about why you're including it.

Ben's corruption wasn't worth showing in my opinion because:

1) the story (and in this case mainly the flashbacks) isn't about him being corrupted, but rather him having been corrupted. There's a difference there.

2) These flashbacks would have slowed a pretty slow story already to a massive crawl and would feel massively out of place. Flashbacks like these are good for a book, and I would happily welcome them there.* But Star Wars isn't Stormlight. In a movie, unless these flashbacks have a connection to the story (like the ones we get), these scenes would feel very superfluous. After all, why would Luke spend his time telling Rey about "that one time Ben did something super shady and I probably should have seen the red flags then," when he's spending all of his time actively avoiding her and trying to convince her why the Jedi should die?

3) About the nephew-murder, Luke already explains this. I've been trying to tell you. It's not about him getting to a point where he'd do that (even though Luke explicitly states "yeah I could stop this kid from taking everything I loved and worked to build"), it's about him always being there. That state of being has nothing to do with Kylo being Luke's nephew, (although that is what walks Luke back from the edge). It was always about Luke protecting those that he loves. That's what fans can't reconcile, or so it seems. Luke's actions in the flashbacks are totally in-line with his character throughout the OT. But it's hard to see because it's not what we want to see. But hey, Kaladin's arc in Words of Radiance is hard to face at times, but it's in line with his character. So too with Luke. 

 

Remember the context around the Flashbacks also. Flashback 1 was because Luke (to paraphrase) said "I don't want another Ben Solo incident." Flashback 2 was Kylo (to paraphrase) saying "Luke attacked me. I'm the victim here!" Flashback 3 was Luke (again, to paraphrase) saying "Yeah I had a bad instinct/reflex because I wanted to protect my loved ones, and it scared Ben off. We're all victims," in order to clear the air. How does exploring Kylo's past fit into this narrative?

 

TL;DR - It really feels like you're asking the movie for information it already gave in detail it never promised, and ignoring what the movie outright states in order to justify that view. How did Kylo fall to the Dark Side? Snoke corrupted him. The end. How did Vader fall to the Dark Side in the OT? He was seduced by its power and then corrupted. The end. TLJ never promised to show what that looked like, and you complaining about that fact isn't fair to the movie or yourself. Why did Luke nearly kill his nephew? He saw what his nephew could become and could destroy, and his instinct went ahead without thinking in order to protect his loved ones, as he has always done. The end. 

 

*In fact, in my Revision head-canon, the trilogy novelization actually would be plotted out like a Stormlight book, flashbacks and interludes and all. TFA's novelization would be about Finn, TLJ would probably be Rey & Kylo, and TROS would either be Poe or Poe & Kylo, assuming the latter isn't sharing the spotlight with Rey in TLJ's novelization. 

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