Eshonai and Book 4

[StrikerEZ]

So, me, @Rasarr and @What's a Seawolf? were talking in a topic that isn’t in a spoiler section, so I felt we should move the discussion here instead.

Basically, we were discussing what we expect to see happen in Eshonai’s flashbacks. I’m gonna quote what I’m responding to, and you can see the discussion that led to it here.

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@StrikerEZ, I'm not opposed to the idea of Eshonai's flashbacks per se, and the worldbuilder in me is quite interested in finding out more about the Listeners. This being said, I'm unexcited right now for a simple reason: Szeth's flashbacks would be more revealing to the story. There are a dozen or so mysteries surrounding the Shin, their religion, how they acquired the Honorblades and how much they know (why did they congratulate Dalinar on the Desolation?). The Listener culture would be interesting from a purely etnographic standpoint, but the Shin are far, far more fascinating to me right now. 

Quite frankly, I'd be more interested Venli flashbacks. Eshonai didn't know what was truly going on until it was far too late. Venli was implied to have been working with Ullim for a while - even before Gavilar's death, perhaps. So, even if we're stuck with Eshonai flashbacks, I'd still like to see some Venli POVs. That, or what @What's a Seawolf? suggested in the spoiler tags.

First, I would like to point out that Brandon has basically said Eshonai is gone for good: (spoilered for length)

Spoiler

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Overlord Jebus[PENDING REVIEW]

Has Eshonai left for the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. I'll canonize this. I'm sorry. 

Overlord Jebus[PENDING REVIEW]

*sounds of horror and shock* Noooo, nooooo, RAFO it!

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

You wanted..that was a RAFO-bait but, so I never intended that..if you want to leave this one out there...But I never intended Timbre to be Eshonai's soul. When people said that in the beta, I'm like, "Oh, I guess you could see that, but I mean that's not how spren work, right?"

Overlord Jebus[PENDING REVIEW]

I was going to say, so you're saying Timbre is not Eshonai's soul.

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

No. I never even thought they would make that connection. Because we saw Timbre in the previous book. I mean, I don't want to kill people's fan theories. But that one kind of blindsided me in the beta. I'm like, "Well I guess we'll go ahead and let people think that but...no." No.

You can leave that one off if you want to tease people and things. Some people really want to believe that.

Overlord Jebus[PENDING REVIEW]

I made a bet that Eshonai was not only still be alive after Words of Radiance, but would also become Radiant. And then the bet was if not I had to eat a shoe.

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

Oh no!

Overlord Jebus[PENDING REVIEW]

So I've been trying to get out of it for like...

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

Well you could eat a gummy shoe or something like that. 

But no, I didn't intend this. No.

source

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Windrunner

/u/Mistborn (Brandon) said that Eshonai will be the flashback character in Book 4. (source), which would indicate that she's probably still alive in some form.

But we'll see. He could've changed it or that could've been a diversion from Venli being the actual flashback character.

Brandon Sanderson

Eshonai is the flashback character--but she is dead in the present. I've warned people multiple times that we WILL have flashbacks to the viewpoints of characters who have died.

source

 

All of those WoBs make it pretty clear to me that Brandon has killed off Eshonai for good. Plus, he’s already brought back so many ‘dead’ characters, I’d be really disappointed if he did it with Eshonai.

As for how Eshonai flashbacks and Venli’s story arc will pan out, here’s what Brandon’s had to say on that:

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Fiechair

is Eshonai really going to be the flashback character for book 4? Don't you mean Venli?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it is Eshonai. (And has always been planned to be Eshonai.) As the series progressed, I knew I wanted to do some unusual things with the flashbacks to keep them all from repeating the same themes and format. My hope is to craft something that is very interesting in the way that it both informs what Venli is doing in the future, and expands upon who Eshonai was in the past.

source

Anyway, as I talked about in the discussion linked above, I’m really excited to see more of the Listener culture before they were discovered by the Alethi, what Eshonai and Venli were like as children, and what the first contact between Alethi and Listeners was like. Plus all the (potential) songs we’ll get. The tidbits we got from the WoR epigraphs were really interesting, so I’m excited to see how they can impact our understanding of events now. 

Overall, I think our disagreements stem simply because we’re excited about different things. I do want to know about the Shin and Szeth’s weird backstory, but I don’t mind waiting for that. I’m more excited to learn about the Listeners (and by extension, through Venli, the Singers) than the Shin.

[Gray to]

I bet Szeths flashbacks will be more exciting, but Eshonai's will probably give us a bunch of Listener lore that we could use for theory building so it seems like a win win

[+Extesian]

One reason I'm really looking forward to it is I think willshapers will be one of the most interesting orders and we'll get to see Venli mad shaping wills yo. 

I feel like most or all of the flashbacks will include Venli from eshonai's perspective (reinforced by this)

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sv15249

Venli is going to be a main character in Stormlight 4? With big focus like previous flashback characters had? I wanted to read more of Dalinar considering how Oathbringer ended with massive cliffhanger (sorta) for him.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar will get more in 5 than in 4. Eshonai will have the flashbacks in 4, though Venli will be featured in them.

source

She will have no idea what's going on but we will and I think we'll find out a fair bit about Odium's plan that led to the Everstorm.

I also think we'll get more stories from their mother which will teach us a lot about the Listeners and therefore about the False Desolation and Ba Ado Mishram.

But yes most of all I look forward to more Songs and finding out much more about the history of humans on Roshar.

[StrikerEZ]

@Extesian You much more eloquently described why I’m excited for Eshonai’s flashbacks than I was able to. I would upvote you, but I’m out for the day. 

[Solant]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

willshapers will be one of the most interesting orders and we'll get to see Venli mad shaping wills yo

I want this so badly to be the back cover synopsis.

[Calderis]

 This argument is purely a cultural preference in my view. Listeners or Shin, both sets of flashbacks are going to be informative in much the same ways. 

Yes, the flashbacks aren't of Venli, but she's still going to be in them as Eshonai's sister and their going to be relevant to Venli in the current timeline. 

As far as more informative? The Shin are isolated xenophobes who happen to have their blades (which the ten heartbeat requirement alone shows they don't understand well). We saw how the Shin got the Honorblades in Dalinar's visions. A Shin man stumbled in and found them and they've apparently been held ever since. 

The singers are everywhere, and if the. End of Venli's arc in OB shows us anything about her plans, then she going to be trying to rebuild that culture in all of them. 

Out of the two, I think the listeners/singers are much more important in the greater storyline. 

[Mailnaise]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Gray said:

I bet Szeths flashbacks will be more exciting, but Eshonai's will probably give us a bunch of Listener lore that we could use for theory building so it seems like a win win

I was actually talking about this a bit in another thread-

Now that we know what we know about how the Listeners were on Roshar first, there will be a lot of moral and ethical dilemmas, which our characters will have to sort through soon, at one point or another. Knowing more about the Listeners from Eshonai's perspective and hopefully more about them from long ago will give us as reader more perspective into the issue and show more points that must be considered before people can really pick sides in the war and struggle to come. (Kinda reminds me a bit of the newest fantastic beasts movie if you've seen i; all of the characters have now made their decision of which side they'll be ultimately fighting for.)

Edited December 20, 2018 by Mailnaise
typo

[Gray to]

35 minutes ago, Mailnaise said:

I was actually talking about this a bit in another thread-

Now that we know what we know about how the Listeners were on Roshar first, there will be a lot of moral and ethical dilemmas, which our characters will have to sort through soon, at one point or another. Knowing more about the Listeners from Eshonai's perspective and hopefully more about them from long ago will give us as reader more perspective into the issue and show more points that must be considered before people can really pick sides in the war and struggle to come. (Kinda reminds me a bit of the newest fantastic beasts movie if you've seen i; all of the characters have now made their decision of which side they'll be ultimately fighting for.)

Yeah not much happened but it sets the stage for future installments

[Rasarr]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

 This argument is purely a cultural preference in my view. Listeners or Shin, both sets of flashbacks are going to be informative in much the same ways.

That is a fair point, though for me, the difference would be in the characters we'd be following. Something I think I've touched on back in the Koloss Head-Munching thread was the difference between Eshonai's and Szeth's knowledge. Eshonai was essentially played - she didn't know what Venli was scheming about until the very end (I really, really want Venli POV flashbacks instead of Eshonai's). I imagine Eshonai's flashbacks will play like a Greek tragedy - we know it's going to go horribly wrong, but she doesn't, and everything she does pushes her a little further towards the catastrophe (not a fan of Greek tragedies, myself...). Szeth, on the other hand, has trained with the Honorblades and appears to be held in some respect before the whole Truthlesness if his claims were considered serious enough to brand him a criminal and kick him out with a magic oath stone. 

But, well, at the end of the day it's a matter of preference. It's not like Eshonai having flashbacks will stop me from getting excited for SA4.

[What's a Seawolf?]

I'm definitely a little worried about the Eshonai flashbacks.  Yes, the lore and deep dive into listener culture could be fascinating, but that's not what the flashbacks have been for in the past.  In each of the first three books, the flashbacks served two purposes.  One, to provide a more in depth look at a main character.  (Which, assuming Venli is one, the Eshonai flashbacks should achieve to a degree.)  But more importantly (to me,) they served as a way to boost and provide suspense/tension in the main narrative as well.  Each flashback had 'shock' moments and mystery that tied in perfectly with what was happening in the present.

I just don't see how that's going to happen with Eshonai dead and gone.  As I mentioned in the other thread, Brandon is going to prove me wrong on the Eshonai flashbacks, but sitting here two years out I just can't get excited for them.  There's nothing there.  There's no brooding mystery or dark secret in Eshonai's past that was ever hinted at, and even if there is, what good will the revelation/conclusion be...because she's dead.

Hopefully that was coherent and not harsh, it's way too early.  I'm extraordinarily excited for SA4 and everything that comes with it, but the Eshonai flashbacks do have me worried.  I feel (similar to most Shallan's POV's in WoK,) I'm going to read them once (be bored because of all the other far more exciting stuff going on,) and never go back to them in subsequent re-reads.  Yes there will be listener culture things, but that can be worked into Venli's POV's anyway.

To mention again the previous thread, the one faint hope I have is that the fan theory that something is wrong with Roshar's afterlife is correct, and we will learn of it with Eshonai.  There's a WoB above that says 'Eshonai left for the Beyond' but I'm hoping against logic that Brandon is being full on Aes Sedai with that statement.  Yes Eshonai is not hanging around the cognitive realm.  Yes, she went to pass into the Beyond.  But then she got stuck.  Tranquille Halls, Braize, who knows.  But somewhere.  THAT would add a shock impact to her flashback chapters.

 

I don't actually believe that, I 100% think we won't ever see Eshonai in the present or post-death ever again, but it would be nice.  (And yes, Brandon has a habit of bringing back 'dead' characters, but personally I really haven't minded yet.  Maybe Szeth should have been moved to book 3, but that's the only one, and I only felt that way on re-reads.  He's also said rebirth is a major theme in the Cosmere, so I expect more of it in many different forms.  This would be a way to 'bring back' someone while they actually stay dead.)

[StrikerEZ]

3 hours ago, Rasarr said:

That is a fair point, though for me, the difference would be in the characters we'd be following. Something I think I've touched on back in the Koloss Head-Munching thread was the difference between Eshonai's and Szeth's knowledge. Eshonai was essentially played - she didn't know what Venli was scheming about until the very end (I really, really want Venli POV flashbacks instead of Eshonai's). I imagine Eshonai's flashbacks will play like a Greek tragedy - we know it's going to go horribly wrong, but she doesn't, and everything she does pushes her a little further towards the catastrophe (not a fan of Greek tragedies, myself...). Szeth, on the other hand, has trained with the Honorblades and appears to be held in some respect before the whole Truthlesness if his claims were considered serious enough to brand him a criminal and kick him out with a magic oath stone. 

But, well, at the end of the day it's a matter of preference. It's not like Eshonai having flashbacks will stop me from getting excited for SA4.

You see, I kinda like the Greek tragedies.  So that might influence why I’m excited for Eshonai flashbacks a little bit.

But besides the potential tragedy of the flashbacks, I feel like there’s so much more to learn in Eshonai’s flashbacks then there is in Szeth’s. We basically know almost everything we need to know about his past, all we need now are the details. There’s so much me we don’t know about Eshonai’s (and Venli’s) past and all the secrets about Listener culture that I’m way more excited to learn about. 

Also, this is probably again just coming down to personal preferences because I’m just not a huge fan of Szeth, and I really like(d) Eshonai and Venli. 

@What's a Seawolf? I mean, it’d be interesting if Eshonai somehow survived past her death, but I don’t even think it’s realmatically possible. In order to resist the pull of the Beyond, you need to have been very thoroughly Invested during your life (which Eshonai was not) or have a Shard intervene and make you into a Cognitive Shadow (like the Fused). I don’t think Odium would’ve seen any need in making Eshonai a CS because, as Ulim mentioned, it seems the Voidspren, and presumably Odium, knew that Eshonai had resisted the change into stormform and would probably be a problem later on. I doubt they would waste Odium’s Investiture on her.

[Winds Alight]

I am very very certain that we don't know nearly enough about Szeth, respectively Shin culture and historical knowledge. I'm dying to learn more about the secrets these people hide behind those mountains.

Also, I believe Eshonai's flashbacks and Venli's POV chapter are going to complement each other very well, and I'm optimistic about everything turning out to be as it should.

[StrikerEZ]

1 minute ago, Winds Alight said:

I am very very certain that we don't know nearly enough about Szeth, respectively Shin culture and historical knowledge. I'm dying to learn more about the secrets these people hide behind those mountains.

Also, I believe Eshonai's flashbacks and Venli's POV chapter are going to complement each other very well, and I'm optimistic about everything turning out to be as it should.

I just don’t really care about the Shin and all that, I guess. Like, it’ll be interesting and really cool to read Szeth’s flashbacks once we get there, but I’m not really dying to read them. The Listeners/Singers are so much cooler than the Shin, in my opinion.

And I totally agree about Eshonai’s flashbacks syncing up really nicely with Venli’s present day stuff.

[Scion of the Mists]

4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@What's a Seawolf? I mean, it’d be interesting if Eshonai somehow survived past her death, but I don’t even think it’s realmatically possible. In order to resist the pull of the Beyond, you need to have been very thoroughly Invested during your life (which Eshonai was not) or have a Shard intervene and make you into a Cognitive Shadow (like the Fused). I don’t think Odium would’ve seen any need in making Eshonai a CS because, as Ulim mentioned, it seems the Voidspren, and presumably Odium, knew that Eshonai had resisted the change into stormform and would probably be a problem later on. I doubt they would waste Odium’s Investiture on her.

Good point about the mechanics of resisting the Beyond, but the WoB you quoted before explicitly says that she "left for the Beyond."  

 

17 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

To mention again the previous thread, the one faint hope I have is that the fan theory that something is wrong with Roshar's afterlife is correct, and we will learn of it with Eshonai.  There's a WoB above that says 'Eshonai left for the Beyond' but I'm hoping against logic that Brandon is being full on Aes Sedai with that statement.  Yes Eshonai is not hanging around the cognitive realm.  Yes, she went to pass into the Beyond.  But then she got stuck.  Tranquille Halls, Braize, who knows.  But somewhere.  THAT would add a shock impact to her flashback chapters.

Not trying to rain on your parade, keep holding out for Eshonai if you want, but she's gone.  She went to the Beyond, and we know that there's no way of getting them back.  

Plus, Brandon's being really careful with resurrections post-WoR (with both Jasnah and Szeth returning).  He's said, just a year ago, regarding resurrections, that 

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there are none planned for the near future. I took some extra care with the next few books, after feeling that things happening in Words and the Mistborn series in the last few years have hit the theme too hard.

[StrikerEZ]

2 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Good point about the mechanics of resisting the Beyond, but the WoB you quoted before explicitly says that she "left for the Beyond."  

Oh, I was arguing against Eshonai surviving past her initial death, not for. Sorry for the confusion.

[What's a Seawolf?]

18 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@What's a Seawolf? I mean, it’d be interesting if Eshonai somehow survived past her death, but I don’t even think it’s realmatically possible. In order to resist the pull of the Beyond, you need to have been very thoroughly Invested during your life (which Eshonai was not) or have a Shard intervene and make you into a Cognitive Shadow (like the Fused). I don’t think Odium would’ve seen any need in making Eshonai a CS because, as Ulim mentioned, it seems the Voidspren, and presumably Odium, knew that Eshonai had resisted the change into stormform and would probably be a problem later on. I doubt they would waste Odium’s Investiture on her.

 

8 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Not trying to rain on your parade, keep holding out for Eshonai if you want, but she's gone.  She went to the Beyond, and we know that there's no way of getting them back.  

 

I know, I know.  Like I said above, that little tidbit references the theory that something is wrong with the afterlife on Roshar, and some or everyone who dies gets trapped somewhere (Tranquille Halls, Braize etc.) before they can pass to the Spiritual Realm.  I don't actually want her back, I was just trying to come up with something that would make the flashbacks interesting to me.

[Calderis]

I will never understand why the PoVs being from Eshonai's perspective means they can't shine light on Venli in the present. 

I think their stories are completely intertwined. These flashbacks are going to do exactly what the previous ones have done, just from a third party this time. 

[Mailnaise]

58 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I will never understand why the PoVs being from Eshonai's perspective means they can't shine light on Venli in the present. 

I think their stories are completely intertwined. These flashbacks are going to do exactly what the previous ones have done, just from a third party this time. 

I agree, and I think people, including myself, wish it was Venli, because she'll know more about what's going on, and I personally don't like it when a character, in this case Eshonai,  is left in the dark about something. However, the third party idea is unique and is totally something Brandon would do, and I mean there's a reason he's my favorite author, so I think I'll just trust him on this one. 

Either way, I'm okay with it. I've been more excited for the story itself and not the flashbacks every time. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Mailnaise
Forgot something

[Steeldancer]

I agree. Brandon's pretty smart. I think he has some idea of how this is going to look. 

[Rasarr]

@StrikerEZ, I do suppose it all comes back to preference. I'm interested in Szeth's background and the Shin (I don't really have the impression that I know much about him at all - pretty much the only thing we know about him from before the Truthless fiasco is that he's trained with all the Honorblades). You're excited for Eshonai. That's fair. Szeth or Eshonai, I'll still be there day one well, month two, Sanderson books are my perennial Christmas gift.

[Solant]

If anything, switching it to a third party will keep the method of having a flashback character every book from feeling too formulaic.

[Kaladin Zahel]

All I know, is there better be at least a Rlain Easter egg in the Eshonai flashbacks.

[IcaroRibeiro]

I think maybe jt's not the time to tell to us Szeth's story. Besides we all discovered lot of things about the Singers on the last two books, to it will be awesome to see the story from their point of view

It's kind of way to don't spoiler upcoming plots. I guess now Szeth is bond to Dalinar we are going to discovery more and more things about Shin until the point we would know so much stuff about Shin culture and history that It will be time to see the story from their point of view. Maybe it happens in book 5 or 6, who knows

[Mailnaise]

And I mean, there may not be Szeth flashbacks quite yet, but now that he is working with the Radiants and POV characters, we will learn at least a little more about him this coming book. 

[Dalakaar]

Here's a quote from State of Sanderson 2018 that might have some impact on who is getting what in the next book and the speculation going on in here.  (Cause to me it sounds a lot like near-confirmation we'll be getting Szeth Flashbacks in Book 4)

"As I’ve worked on the Stormlight series, I’ve shifted a lot of things around in the outlines. Famously, I swapped Dalinar’s book and Szeth’s book (making Book Three have Dalinar’s flashbacks instead of Szeth’s). "

 

:)