Is there a point to Sebarial?

[Toaster Retribution]

Do you think Sebarial has a purpose beyond comic relief? He has no army, is no Surgebinder, and is not very good at very much, except for commerce, for which we already have thaylens. 

Also, am I the only one who is annoyed by him, and thinks he feels untrustworthy? 

[Winds Alight]

I'm a huge fan of Sebarial. And Palona of course.
During his first introduction in WoR I found him rather annoying too, but when Shallan moved into his warcamp I quickly realized he's not half as useless as he seemed. He's actually an incredibly smart guy.
My favourite scene is during the battle at Narak, when he casually takes over Roion's troops, while feasting and having a great time despite the battle going on. The picture of Palona reading while the Everstorm broods up is one of my favourite things ever.

I do believe he is on Dalinar's side (which would make sense, as being on Dalinar's side pretty much is equivalent to being on humankind's side by now) and that he still has some surprises waiting for the crew.

BTW, he does have an army, just not a very big one as far as I can remember. And I believe Dalinar even noted at Narak that Sebarial's troops did hold up surprisingly well.

[king of nowhere]

sebarial is not a main character. he is a secondary character, a highprince allied of one of the main characters, who helps in some ways duyring the story. he fulfills this role well. not every character has to have big story arcs to "have a point"

[Naurock]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, am I the only one who is annoyed by him, and thinks he feels untrustworthy? 

I enjoy his character. To me he has always seemed to be holding something back. I think he's got more secrets to be revealed soon that will be a huge help. 

The fact he took in Shallan so easily makes me think he is more honorable than is let on. So I've never viewed him as untrustworthy, but that could just be setting me up for a punch in the gut later.

[NoiseSpren]

1 hour ago, Naurock said:

The fact he took in Shallan so easily makes me think he is more honorable than is let on.

Don't mistake honor with goodness.

Agree. He is too much around to be useless. There will be at least Elhokar like thing. Not so emotional or grand, but who cares.

[Toaster Retribution]

4 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

BTW, he does have an army, just not a very big one as far as I can remember. And I believe Dalinar even noted at Narak that Sebarial's troops did hold up surprisingly well.

I’m pretty sure Dalinar says in OB that he gave most of his troops to Kholin or Aladar, and only kept a small personal guard, since he is uninterested in a military command. 

 

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

sebarial is not a main character. he is a secondary character, a highprince allied of one of the main characters, who helps in some ways duyring the story. he fulfills this role well. not every character has to have big story arcs to "have a point"

Agreed. And I dont ask this about Kadash, Aladar, Hatham, Fen or another side character. But my gut feel says that Sebarial will have bigger things to do.

[Ripheus23]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

not every character has to have big story arcs to "have a point"

That's not true, how else is Sanderson going to surprise us with the ultimate twist?

Spoiler

The twist: in order to make the Cosmere saga the first 1,000-book series, Sanderson will write spin-offs surrounding each and every single sentient being mentioned by name or definite description in all books released so far. That's right, THE STICKLIGHT ARCHIVE is on its way.

 

[ND103]

I'm going to have to weigh in with the group here. Sebarial is far from a comic relief unnecessary character. Sebarial is shown to be pretty smart (he was the only one thinking long term with regards to the shattered plains for instance), and most important he thinks long term (see above). I am by no means an expert on the apocalypse, but someone with a long term vision seems like exactly the sort of guy you want around in one of those. 

9 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

I'm a huge fan of Sebarial. And Palona of course.
During his first introduction in WoR I found him rather annoying too, but when Shallan moved into his warcamp I quickly realized he's not half as useless as he seemed. He's actually an incredibly smart guy.
My favourite scene is during the battle at Narak, when he casually takes over Roion's troops, while feasting and having a great time despite the battle going on. The picture of Palona reading while the Everstorm broods up is one of my favourite things ever.

I do believe he is on Dalinar's side (which would make sense, as being on Dalinar's side pretty much is equivalent to being on humankind's side by now) and that he still has some surprises waiting for the crew.

BTW, he does have an army, just not a very big one as far as I can remember. And I believe Dalinar even noted at Narak that Sebarial's troops did hold up surprisingly well.

However I will disagree with you sir on your point about him being on Dalinar's side as that is pretty much equivalent to being on humankind's side. Or rather the point I disagree with is that its the same as being on humankind's side. 

I think the whole point of the saga is to explore the fact that humankind's side isn't really the side of the good guys. Neither is the other side. There is no good side or bad side. There's the side against Odium, and the side for Odium.. And Dalinar's vision to unite them is about uniting all the different people's on Roshar against Odium after a fashion. And if you consider that as a goal, Sebarial seems again, just like the kind of person to have on your side. Because he's bright enough to see that the conflict won't end unless all parsh people are eradicated, or a more reasonable solution is found between everyone involved. His approach tends to be less militaristic and more let's talk it out (even if it is for pragmatic reasons and not the altruistic ones). 

Either way you slice it, seems like he's just the guy to have around... No?  

Of course having said that, odds are he's dying in the first half of the series, because he's too useful to keep around... So if you find him annoying, there's a fair chance he ain't gonna be around too long.

Edited December 17, 2018 by ND103

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I actually think he's going to be a pivotal character, and that his true character is far different from how we've seen him presented so far.

My gut feeling is that he is a senior member of the ghostbloods, possibly even Thaidakar. The scene were Shallan meets with him and Palona in his quarters in Urithiru while he's having his floors redone was vaguely sinister and ominous. Why is he really having his floor redone, what's he hiding?

I think he plays the crass buffoon to hide in plain sight, so to speak. The other high princes were quick to dismiss him at the Alethi war camps because of his pull my finger kind of jokes while he was quietly building a second center of economic power. This is intentional misdirection, and the fact that he is willing to project such an unflattering public persona is a clear indicator to me of the lengths he is willing to go to to achieve his ends (most likely power through wealth).

The fact that the Ghostblood bunker is in Sebarial's warcamp seems to me to be a significant detail. The tenement style building was built with a basement (which is incredibly uncommon and expensive because of the highstorm flooding) and this was built on top of a pre-existing basement structure. This seems like something that at the very least a capable administrator like Sebarial would be aware of. Also, the trophy case collection might in fact be Sebarial's private collection of Cosmere trophies. As evidenced by his quarters in Urithiru, he is a collector and he relishes rare and exquisite items. And since his true genius is in administration, he might be that rare type of collector that sees conquest as the employment of the proper people to secure the items in question, like a wealthy british colonialist from the 19th century that paid someone to go out and secure a tiger pelt for them.

I'm going to be rereading Stormlight again pretty soon, and I'll keep my eye out for signs that Sebarial and Palona are more than what they seem. If he really is Thaidakar, then having Shallan stroll so blithely into his confidence must have made him quite happy.

I think there will be a moment when Shallan is very vulnerable, and these surrogate parental figures will betray her, kind of like the scene in the 80's movie Cloak and Dagger, where the kid who played Elliot from ET discovers that the kindly old man and woman that have been helping him out are really the evil super spies.

Here's a video of that Scene, I saw this when I was a kid and this still gives me chills when I watch it:

*EDITED:
Added a bit more to the middle portion, I actually really like this theory. The thing that makes Sebarial sympathetic is his relationship with Palona, but that's a closed circle. Horrible, Machiavellian villians can still have a single person that is outside of the cruel logic of the ends justify the means that applies to everyone else. What is the use of power, wealth and prestige if you don't have anyone to share it with. I think Sebarial is like Dr. No, but instead of having a white lap cat, he chooses to have Palona by his side while he gets ready to roll in the dough while the world burns.

Edited December 17, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[earthexile]

Sebarial is a civilization-builder, a logistics genius who likes the finer things in life. He is the kind of guy who will help put things back together after it all goes bad. He sees darkeyes as people. He is contemptuous of all the shittiest parts of Alethi society. I think he's the man.

[goody153]

Sebarial is a secondary character that makes up of the huge cast of characters in SA that makes the series huge in scale. Also he represents the Breeze role which Sanderson has in his books 

[Winds Alight]

6 hours ago, ND103 said:

However I will disagree with you sir on your point about him being on Dalinar's side as that is pretty much equivalent to being on humankind's side. Or rather the point I disagree with is that its the same as being on humankind's side.

I guess my main point on this was that Dalinar is mankind's best shot at surviving this mess right now and that Sebarial knows this.
Whether that is the good or the right side to be on strongly depends on the individual's perspective.

[TousenShadowForged]

did you skim through  the book because  he isn't useless

[Subvisual Haze]

He's a good jumping off point to discuss the economy of the camps and Urithiru.

He also acts as an interesting example of the importance of diversity in perspectives and personalities.  Jasnah's notes and Dalinar's thoughts dismiss him as a fool because they are all business and super serious and as such view him as a fool.  Shallan is more irreverent though and is able to discern that Seb is more clever than he lets on and is a very useful ally in his own way (economy+trade).

[NoiseSpren]

9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I actually think he's going to be a pivotal character, and that his true character is far different from how we've seen him presented so far.

My gut feeling is that he is a senior member of the ghostbloods, possibly even Thaidakar. The scene were Shallan meets with him and Palona in his quarters in Urithiru while he's having his floors redone was vaguely sinister and ominous. Why is he really having his floor redone, what's he hiding?

I think he plays the crass buffoon to hide in plain sight, so to speak. The other high princes were quick to dismiss him at the Alethi war camps because of his pull my finger kind of jokes while he was quietly building a second center of economic power. This is intentional misdirection, and the fact that he is willing to project such an unflattering public persona is a clear indicator to me of the lengths he is willing to go to to achieve his ends (most likely power through wealth).

The fact that the Ghostblood bunker is in Sebarial's warcamp seems to me to be a significant detail. The tenement style building was built with a basement (which is incredibly uncommon and expensive because of the highstorm flooding) and this was built on top of a pre-existing basement structure. This seems like something that at the very least a capable administrator like Sebarial would be aware of. Also, the trophy case collection might in fact be Sebarial's private collection of Cosmere trophies. As evidenced by his quarters in Urithiru, he is a collector and he relishes rare and exquisite items. And since his true genius is in administration, he might be that rare type of collector that sees conquest as the employment of the proper people to secure the items in question, like a wealthy british colonialist from the 19th century that paid someone to go out and secure a tiger pelt for them.

I'm going to be rereading Stormlight again pretty soon, and I'll keep my eye out for signs that Sebarial and Palona are more than what they seem. If he really is Thaidakar, then having Shallan stroll so blithely into his confidence must have made him quite happy.

I think there will be a moment when Shallan is very vulnerable, and these surrogate parental figures will betray her, kind of like the scene in the 80's movie Cloak and Dagger, where the kid who played Elliot from ET discovers that the kindly old man and woman that have been helping him out are really the evil super spies.

Here's a video of that Scene, I saw this when I was a kid and this still gives me chills when I watch it:

*EDITED:
Added a bit more to the middle portion, I actually really like this theory. The thing that makes Sebarial sympathetic is his relationship with Palona, but that's a closed circle. Horrible, Machiavellian villians can still have a single person that is outside of the cruel logic of the ends justify the means that applies to everyone else. What is the use of power, wealth and prestige if you don't have anyone to share it with. I think Sebarial is like Dr. No, but instead of having a white lap cat, he chooses to have Palona by his side while he gets ready to roll in the dough while the world burns.

Oh, dear. That actualy makes sense. I will check out.

[Govir]

11 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think there will be a moment when Shallan is very vulnerable, and these surrogate parental figures will betray her, kind of like the scene in the 80's movie Cloak and Dagger, where the kid who played Elliot from ET discovers that the kindly old man and woman that have been helping him out are really the evil super spies.

 I don't think this will happen.

Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

Because Sanderson already did something like this in Warbreaker. Denth and crew are presented as helping, although not as kindly as Sebarial. And you find out later that they are the antagonists.

I think Sebarial is what he seems: a guy who bucks normal society pressures (i.e. non Alethi mistress, focused on commerce more than warfare, etc.) And as someone above mentioned, the way that he honored his "deal" Shallan cornered him into makes me think he is at the least a good guy (not good vs evil, but good vs bad).

[What's a Seawolf?]

11 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

...

As incredibly interesting as that would be, I think this is one case where Brandon is not plotting a crazy twist.

I've always seen Seb and Pal as very much devoted to their princedom and the country/Roshar as a whole.  They come off as nonchalant and aloof, but that's (obviously) the persona they're trying to portray.  (Though the nonchalantness is probably partially to fully true.)

Every significant moment Seb has is ultimately helping Dalinar and showing a strong brain behind the facade, from the economic prowess to taking over the confused armies at the end of WoR.  All of it was intentional, even if not outright stated.

There could be something else there, but I hope he is what he seems, a highprince who actually sees the world (and himself) for what it is, and takes the steps he sees necessary to save his people/(generally) do the right thing.

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

36 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

There could be something else there, but I hope he is what he seems, a highprince who actually sees the world (and himself) for what it is, and takes the steps he sees necessary to save his people/(generally) do the right thing.

Part of me hopes you are right, how many times does the knife have to get twisted into Shallan's gut? But, I was just rereading the chapter that first made me suspect that Palona and Sebarial might be like the 3-fingered spy and her elderly husband from Cloak and dagger, Chapter 32 Company. It's the chapter were Shallan is recuperating after her battle with Reshiphir under the ministrations of Palona. The Chapter Epigraph is:

Quote

For I, of all people, have changed.
– From Oathbringer, preface

I don't have the ebook, so I'm going to type this out and emphasize the bits that are particularly unsettling [and add annotations in square brackets]. In text they are light-heartedly dismissed, but I still think that having a pit in your private apartments covered with boards is a super villain red flag:

Quote

Shallan settled in Sebarial's sitting room. It was a strangely shaped stone chamber with a loft above—he sometimes put musicians there—and a shallow cavity in the floor, which he kept saying he was going to fill with water and fish. She was fairly certain he made claims like this just to annoy Dalinar with his supposed extravagance. [Sounds like he has a gloating platform to watch from as his enemies are eaten by the purelake equivalent of pirahnas. This is a pattern in this chapter too, where something slightly unnerving is described, and then Shallan gives it an explicit lighthearted explanation. Seems very fishy].

For now, they'd covered the hole with some boards, and Sebarial would periodically warn people not to step on them. The rest of the room was decorated lavishly. She was pretty sure she'd seen those tapestries in a monastery in Dalinar's warcamp, and they were matched by luxurious furniture, golden lamps, and ceramics. [In the preceding paragraph, the cavity that the boards were covering was described as shallow, why would Sebarial warn people not to step on the boards if they were just running the risk of falling into a shallow cavity? Doesn't add up, and we know that the ghostbloods like their basements to have basements. Also, Sebarial stole tapestries from Dalinar's warcamp, again emphasizing shady morals]

And a bunch of splintery boards covering a pit. She shook her head. Then—curled up on a sofa with blankets heaped over her—she gladly accepted a cup of steaming citrus tea from Palona. She still hadn't been able to rid herself of the lingering chill she'd felt since her encounter with Re-shephir a few hours back. [Later on in this chapter, there are some pretty good signs that this tea was drugged, and Palona proceeds to grill her about her knowledge of the Unmade, which is a known objective of the Ghostbloods. Again the rhythm of this paragraph is unsettling detail, comforting detail, unsettling detail. This seems like an intentioned use of mood to me]

(skipped some paragrahs here, here's the summary: Palona asks if shallan needs anything, then settles on the sofa next to her sipping tea as well)

"So..." Palona said. "What was it like?" [Palona priming Shallan for information about the unmade that she just fought, which also happens to be the mission that she was working on for the ghostbloods]

(another paragraph skip, Shallan thinking about the Midnight mother, etc).

"To think it was here, all this time," Palona said. "Hiding down there." [Sounds like a hint of regret, we know the ghostbloods want to capture and control Sja-anat, they might have also liked to capture and control Re-shephir as well]

"She was captive," Shallan whispered. "She eventually escaped, but that was centuries ago. She has been waiting here ever since."

"Well, we should find where the others are held, and make sure they don't get out." [PALONA says this, and this is maps to the only other known objective of the Ghostbloods, namely to capture and control Sja-anat]

"I don't know if the others were ever captured." She felt isolation and loneliness from Re-shephir, a sense of being torn away while the others escaped.

"So..." [again, Palona priming Shallan for more information about the unmade]

"They're out there, and always have been," Shallan said. She felt exhausted, and her eyes were drooping in direct defiance of her insistence to Adolin that she was not that kind of tired"

"Surely we'd have discovered them by now." [Again, Palona digging for more information on what Shallan knows about the other unmade]

"I don't know," Shallan said. "They'll just be normal to us. The way things always have been."

She yawned, then nodded absently as Palona continued talking, her comments degenerating into praise of Shallan for acting as she had....[chapter goes on, but notice that she exhibits more signs of having possibly been drugged with the tea, yawning and nodding absently]

This could totally be a red herring, but before I read this chapter, I had the same view of Sebarial and Palona as you @Govir and @What's a Seawolf?, but the fact that Sebarial is having a shady pit installed in his private apartments, and Palona kind heartedly gives Shallan "citrus" tea, and then proceeds to grill her about what she knows about the unmade, makes me highly suspicious of this pair. The effects highlighted above could just simply be that exhaustion is finally catching up to Shallan, but the drooping eyelids, the yawning, and the absent nodding all sound like an effect of a drug, possibly a truth serum administered in her tea to make sure she wasn't holding anything back about the unmade. One other datum, Palona slips into inane yet reassuring chatter after Shallan yawns and nods absently, maybe this is a sign she knows to look for that efficacious period of the truth serum had run it's course (total speculation but could be the case).

One other thing, we as readers know that Ghostbloods all have a visible tattoo that shows their allegiance, and for a lot of the book Sebarial and Palona are only covered by towels making it seem like they should be easily de. This could be intentionally done to up the suprise ante when they dramatically reveal their ghostblood tattoo's during the moment of betrayal.

I want to like Palona and Sebarial, but looking at the signs and clues in this chapter, I just can't trust them, and moreover I think this chapter heavily foreshadows that they are at the very least in league with the Ghostbloods, if not the secret leaders of the ghostbloods.

[equinox]

I really hope that Sebarial and Palona are "just" Sebarial and Palona. I know.. There is always another secret. But I think not every well-developed secondary character needs a surprising reveal.

Also, I don't think Shallan was drugged. I don't read much into this scene. If I was Palona, I would be curious too. And Shallan fought sleep for quite a while. She was more than exhausted. I guess we all know how trying to stay awake despite exhaustion feels (even without having fought an Unmade) - drooping eyelids and yawning is just natural.

Still, theorizing about those two being Ghostblood leaders is fun. So I loved reading your analysis @hoiditthroughthegrapevine 

[wotbibliophile]

On 12/16/2018 at 4:44 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, am I the only one who is annoyed by him, and thinks he feels untrustworthy? 

I am annoyed by him, but I do think he is trustworthy. I am annoyed by him because he is like other characters Sanderson has written where Sanderson's and my own sense of humor do not mesh. He is irritating not funny. I also find him unrealistic. The scene where he and Palona are chilling while a battle is fought and two high storms clash was too much for me. Again not funny just irritating. I can't imagine anyone really acting like that while those things happen and anyone who did is an [swear word removed].

[Toaster Retribution]

7 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

The scene where he and Palona are chilling while a battle is fought and two high storms clash was too much for me. Again not funny just irritating. I can't imagine anyone really acting like that while those things happen and anyone who did is an [swear word removed].

Agreed. This is in fact my main criticism of Brandons writing. Sometimes he does really funny characters really well (Lightsong, Breeze, Axies and Cody for example) and sometimes he makes characters whose comedy is so unrealistic it becomes bad (Lift, Sebarial, Lopen at times). Granted, the first one is way more common than the second, and the annoying characters are alright most of the time, but there are occasional scenes (Sebarial chilling in battle, Lift randomly showing up in Dalinars vision to talk about butts, the scene where Lopen becomes a Radiant) which bother me. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1 hour ago, equinox said:

I really hope that Sebarial and Palona are "just" Sebarial and Palona. I know.. There is always another secret. But I think not every well-developed secondary character needs a surprising reveal.

On one hand, I agree with you it would be great if Sebarial and Palona were just how they seem ( I like them as characters), but on the other it's just bizarre that he has a James Bond villainesque underperforming underling disposal setup in his private apartments. Sebarial's obviously an eccentric, but a pit covered by planks in a luxuriously furnished room, the contrast there has to be significant in my opinion. 

[Mailnaise]

I personally really like Sebarial and Palona, and feel like Brandon has been setting them up for something important, whether that's big on screen or more to the side. The fact that they have the best warcamp/princedom economically would put them in a great spot to help set up society in new places and different ways. 

As for their allegiances, I feel like anything is possible. I feel like Brandon purposely made them kinda like a wildcard, he could take their stories MANY different ways, and I don't think anyone would really question it. I really like your analysis, too, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. More proof that they could go a lot of ways. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

43 minutes ago, Mailnaise said:

I personally really like Sebarial and Palona, and feel like Brandon has been setting them up for something important, whether that's big on screen or more to the side. The fact that they have the best warcamp/princedom economically would put them in a great spot to help set up society in new places and different ways. 

As for their allegiances, I feel like anything is possible. I feel like Brandon purposely made them kinda like a wildcard, he could take their stories MANY different ways, and I don't think anyone would really question it.

Totally agree with all your points, but I personally am a fan of the Ghostbloods and Sebarial & Palona. A good series needs good villains, and this seems like an excellent pairing to me.

Or what might even be better, would be to have Thaidikar be a dark eyes of the 10th nahn, but Sebarial and Palona are working for him. A highprince and his consort taking orders from the lowliest of darkeyes would be a nice twist.

Anyway, this is just a speculative prediction, kinda hope I'm wrong, kinda hope I'm right.

[Gasper]

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

the scene where Lopen becomes a Radiant

The thing is, I know people like Lopen, who have a very similar personality. Not to rain on your parade or anything, but from my experience, Lopen's comedy shtick is an actual thing.