Saodar

Aon Sheo

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Since we already have Aon Daa for use as an offensive weapon, what would Aon Sheo (death) do? We never see it used, would it function sort of like the killing curse in Harry Potter?

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Assuming the property is death inducement then the effects would probably be similar, perhaps in a field rather than for a target. Might even include the caster.

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Pure speculation, but it could possibly also be modified to feign death rather than cause it. It could be very useful to fake one's own death at times in the Cosmere.

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Yes, in the Alleyverse we've just been using it as a one shot punch kinda thing.

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With proper modifiers it could be used to kill just one person or be applied to an object(like a sword) that would kill instantly.  Also you may be able to keep someone in suspended animation via adding a negation to say don't die(I doubt it would heal but it could keep someone in one piece for a while so you could research a cure).

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Random thought, what if it does Necromancy? As in raise the dead and control them, but not as bringing them back to life. Kinda like a lifeless? We see other aons mimic powers from other systems (soulcasting, and lightweaving), so why not lifeless?

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Random thought, what if it does Necromancy? As in raise the dead and control them, but not as bringing them back to life. Kinda like a lifeless? We see other aons mimic powers from other systems (soulcasting, and lightweaving), so why not lifeless?

I am sure you can raise the dead lifeless style via Aons although I doubt that you could just do it via a word that means death.

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29 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am sure you can raise the dead lifeless style via Aons although I doubt that you could just do it via a word that means death.

Why?

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18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why?

By itself.  In what reasonable language could you say "death" and imply that you want zombies to show up.

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22 minutes ago, Karger said:

By itself.  In what reasonable language could you say "death" and imply that you want zombies to show up.

You are summoning the dead? When you say death it evokes thoughts of graveyards, skulls, and the reaper. There is a magic system on sel that can do that to a degree. In what shape or form would you think a form of forgery would result in skeletals? And yet they are a thing. Sounds reasonable to me. 

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22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are summoning the dead? When you say death it evokes thoughts of graveyards, skulls, and the reaper. There is a magic system on sel that can do that to a degree. In what shape or form would you think a form of forgery would result in skeletals? And yet they are a thing. Sounds reasonable to me. 

It is probably included but I think you will need more then a few modifiers.

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

It is probably included but I think you will need more then a few modifiers.

Ok? the question of this thread was what do we think the aon for death would do. I threw out an idea I had. Modifier or not, I think it is possible.

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49 minutes ago, Karger said:

By itself.

Completing earlier thoughts. Implying you need modifiers.  I don't think there are too many things the Elantrain system of magic can't do.

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I expect that you could use Aon Sheo in a variety of ways depending on the modifiers. I believe that it represents the concept of death rather than just literal death. I also think that there are more uses for Aon Daa, and all of the other Aons, than what we have seen so far.

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4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

You are summoning the dead? When you say death it evokes thoughts of graveyards, skulls, and the reaper. There is a magic system on sel that can do that to a degree. In what shape or form would you think a form of forgery would result in skeletals? And yet they are a thing. Sounds reasonable to me. 

Not the topic of this thread but skeletals aren't made with Forgery. Walking skeletons without flesh or muscle around them are too implausible for a stamp to stick around for any length of time. They're made with bloodsealing which is a completely separate strain of Selish magic.

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27 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Not the topic of this thread but skeletals aren't made with Forgery. Walking skeletons without flesh or muscle around them are too implausible for a stamp to stick around for any length of time. They're made with bloodsealing which is a completely separate strain of Selish magic.

Shai names them forgeries. From Shai's own thoughts:

 

Shai hissed softly again as the Bloodsealer removed something from within his robes. A crude soulstamp created from a bone. His “pets” would also be bone, Forgeries of human life crafted from the skeletons of the dead.

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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Shai hissed softly again as the Bloodsealer removed something from within his robes. A crude soulstamp created from a bone. His “pets” would also be bone, Forgeries of human life crafted from the skeletons of the dead.

Bloodsealing is forgerie's magical cousin but it is not forgiery it is a separate magic system.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Bloodsealing is forgerie's magical cousin but it is not forgiery it is a separate magic system.

Have a quote or WoB to back that up?

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35 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Have a quote or WoB to back that up?

Bloodsealing doesn't use MaiPon as a base symbol. The one that the Bloodsealer used to trap Shai looked like an eye.

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55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Have a quote or WoB to back that up?

 

14 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Bloodsealing doesn't use MaiPon as a base symbol. The one that the Bloodsealer used to trap Shai looked like an eye.

They both use symbols to access the Dor but the base symbols are different hence differnet magic systems.  This is why the coppermind has separate articles.

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47 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

They both use symbols to access the Dor but the base symbols are different hence differnet magic systems.  This is why the coppermind has separate articles.

Did you mean to quote me here? You seem to be responding to someone else. If not, I'm not sure what your point is. You basically restated what I said, minus the reference to something from the books.

Also, the Coppermind is an excellent source of information, but it is made and maintained by fans, and is not canon. Referencing it as evidence is a bit like citing Wikipedia in a scholarly work.

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1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Bloodsealing doesn't use MaiPon as a base symbol. The one that the Bloodsealer used to trap Shai looked like an eye.

The shape of the seal is an eye, not the central design. Shai also comments on how there are surgeons that use stamps to forge the body. They used stamps to heal Ashraven so well it appears that he was never even hurt. The reason they needed Shai was because she knew how to use soulstamps, but all of it is forgery. All use stamps to convince an object/body something is true. Regardless we are getting into semantics. We could just as easily define all magics on Sel as one magic system because they all use the Dor, they all use symbols, and all versions derive the symbols/shapes from the places they originate. My point was that even magics from entirely other planets can mimic powers, so why not Aons? There is an Aon that does the same thing as the surge of transportation. There is an aon that does the same thing as the surge of transformation. There is an aon that does the same thing as the surge of illumination, and there is a surge that does the same thing as regrowth. So why should be assume it is impossible that there could an aon that does something similar to lifeless or skeletals? Btw, below is the quote where the seal is described

"When he withdrew his hand, he left a glowing red seal in the wood. It was shaped like an eye. "

1 hour ago, Karger said:

 

They both use symbols to access the Dor but the base symbols are different hence different magic systems.  This is why the coppermind has separate articles.

I explained above why to me that doesn't matter and effects nothing regarding my post. 

 

Edited by Pathfinder
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47 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Did you mean to quote me here? You seem to be responding to someone else. If not, I'm not sure what your point is. You basically restated what I said, minus the reference to something from the books.

I was agreeing with you (I had the post sitting there unfinished for a while)

 

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The shape of the seal is an eye, not the central design.

There is no mention of the central design in the book.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Shai also comments on how there are surgeons that use stamps to forge the body.

The surgeons use Forgery.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The reason they needed Shai was because she knew how to use soulstamps, but all of it is forgery.

They need Shai because she knows how to make essence marks. They already know how to make soul stamps.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

All use stamps to convince an object/body something is true.

While true, this is to general. The blood sealer uses his magic to track Shai and to animate dead tissue. We do not see Shai make use of any kind of magic other than Transformation.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Regardless we are getting into semantics. We could just as easily define all magics on Sel as one magic system because they all use the Dor, they all use symbols, and all versions derive the symbols/shapes from the places they originate.

You could do that, just as you could count all of the metallic arts as one magic system. That does not, however, mean that each of the subsets have all of the abilities of the others.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

My point was that even magics from entirely other planets can mimic powers, so why not Aons? There is an Aon that does the same thing as the surge of transportation.

Aons can likely achieve almost any effect given the wide range of forces that it has access to and its programmatic nature. Forgery on the other hand only seems to have access to the powers that I will broadly define as "Transformation and Progression". We have not seen it do anything other than this, though it does seem to be one of the most powerful forms of Transformation that we have seen, given it's ability to alter a persons Spiritual Self. The Progression aspect seems to be severely hamstrung by the need to understand advanced anatomy.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So why should be assume it is impossible that there could an aon that does something similar to lifeless or skeletals?

I never said this, even by implication. As I said above, I suspect that there are very few limits on what is possible with Aons.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Btw, below is the quote where the seal is described

"When he withdrew his hand, he left a glowing red seal in the wood. It was shaped like an eye. "

I'm not sure why you included this, I clearly was already aware of it given my previous post. It says nothing about looking like a Forgery seal other than the fact that it is red.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Shai names them forgeries. From Shai's own thoughts:

 

Shai hissed softly again as the Bloodsealer removed something from within his robes. A crude soulstamp created from a bone. His “pets” would also be bone, Forgeries of human life crafted from the skeletons of the dead.

I would imagine that Shai, like most people, uses her own understanding of the world to define the things in it. To her, magic is Forgery.

 

I will admit that the two systems are never explicitly described as being distinct from one another, but neither is it stated that they are the same. At most, we could say that they are similar in some regards, and different in others.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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11 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

There is no mention of the central design in the book.

And yet by your post, that was what you claimed

"Bloodsealing doesn't use MaiPon as a base symbol. The one that the Bloodsealer used to trap Shai looked like an eye."

Mai Pon is the central design. The way you wrote it said to me that you were saying the central design for blood sealing is an eye. Which it isn't. It is the shape of the stamp. Like how the images we see in the short novel show a circle for a soulstamp. 

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The surgeons use Forgery.

No disagreement here

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They need Shai because she knows how to make essence marks. They already know how to make soul stamps.

They need Shai because no one has tried to create someone's entire soul from nothing. Shai is the best at what she does, but others can do it. Not sure how this effects the magic system

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While true, this is to general. The blood sealer uses his magic to track Shai and to animate dead tissue. We do not see Shai make use of any kind of magic other than Transformation.

There is no tissue on a skeletal, unless you classify bone as tissue. Just because Shai focuses on transformation does not dispute anything I have said. I have a WoB below in response to another point you made. 

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You could do that, just as you could count all of the metallic arts as one magic system. That does not, however, mean that each of the subsets have all of the abilities of the others.

I never said they have all abilities of the others. I said based on what we have seen, it is possible that the aons could mimic that power as well. I then gave examples of aons that mimic powers from other power systems to show the idea is plausible. 

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Aons can likely achieve almost any effect given the wide range of forces that it has access to and its programmatic nature. Forgery on the other hand only seems to have access to the powers that I will broadly define as "Transformation and Progression". We have not seen it do anything other than this, though it does seem to be one of the most powerful forms of Transformation that we have seen, given it's ability to alter a persons Spiritual Self. The Progression aspect seems to be severely hamstrung by the need to understand advanced anatomy.

Because you are missing my point by arguing semantics. As you yourself said, and the WoB I posted below state, what you term as a "magic system" is subjective. You view them as three separate magic systems, I view them as all one. Both concepts can coexist as per Brandon below:

 

BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

Anyway, I'd say that the Wheel of Time has a fair number of Magic systems. The biggest one would be the One Power/True Power, which is more of a blanket "Large" magic system kind of like Allomancy being a blanket for sixteen powers—only the WoT magic system is far larger. I'd count what Perrin/Egwene do in Tel'aran'rhiod as a different magic system. What Mat does as something else, the Talents one can have with the Power something else. Though I'd group all of the Foretelling/Viewing powers into one.

Sounds like a topic for a paper, actually. Any of you academics out there feel like writing one?

Let's just say that The Wheel of Time has a smaller number of larger magic systems, and I tend to use a larger number of smaller magic systems. Confusing enough? ;)

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I never said this, even by implication. As I said above, I suspect that there are very few limits on what is possible with Aons.

But that is my point. You stepped into the conversation between Karger and myself, where I was stating that since we have seen similar powers in Aons as powers in entirely different magic systems, or even forgery, I see no reason why there couldn't be an Aon that does something similar. Then Karger instead of responding to my point about aons, began to focus on the one aspect of forgery, which does not effect the point i was trying to make the begin with. We can pretend forgery doesn't exist, and my point still stands. We can say forgery is 1 magic system, 3 magic systems, or some random arbitrary magic system. It doesn't matter for the point I am discussing. That if you can have an aon that can basically soulcast, an aon that can teleport, an aon that can make illusions, and an aon that can heal, all of which that we see occur with a magic system on another planet, then why can there not be an aon that could create something like a lifeless which is a nalthis magic? To me there is no reason to preclude it. The whole point of this thread was to say "hey what do you think sheo could do? And I said "hey maybe raise the dead like a lifeless". Simple cut and dry. I honestly do not know how that ended up becoming a debate over what forgery is. 

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I'm not sure why you included this, I clearly was already aware of it given my previous post. It says nothing about looking like a Forgery seal other than the fact that it is red.

I explained above why I included it. 

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I would imagine that Shai, like most people, uses her own understanding of the world to define the things in it. To her, magic is Forgery.

And yet again, I do not see how any of that matters regarding my original point of discussing the aon sheo potentially being able to create something like a lifeless. It is literally like we were discussing oranges and the type of liquid you get from them, and I happen to mention apple juice from red apples, and now you and Karger are trying to debate whether or not there are other colors of apples. That has no effect on orange juice. So why am I even arguing it?

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I will admit that the two systems are never explicitly described as being distinct from one another, but neither is it stated that they are the same. At most, we could say that they are similar in some regards, and different in others.

Great, so can you explain to me what that has to do with my point regarding aon sheo?

 

edit: I have gone back and read this entire thread and it seems it was @Agent34 who decided to bring up the color of apples lol. So can we all get back to the topic of this thread instead of debating forgery?

Edited by Pathfinder
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