The Uniform Steps of Magic-Making

[Confused]

I believe all “people with magic” systems – where mortals direct magic rather than just interact with it – follow the same basic steps. These steps reflect Brandon’s “unified cosmere laws.” A magic user:

1. Begins by infusing energy into the magical process.

2. Uses that energy to summon Shard power.

3. Focuses that power as it Invests the magic user or an object.

4. Directs the Focused Investiture for some magical effect.

Energy Infusion

Some energy infusion always begins the magical process. Magic users metabolize metal or Investiture, or they move, or they simply command Shard power to add “facilitating” energy (Feruchemy and maybe non-Awakening Breath transfers).

Summoning Shard Power

I theorize the initial energy summons the magic’s actual fuel – Shard power – from the Spiritual Realm (or from the Cognitive Realm for the Dor). The lone exceptions IMO are Roshar’s spren-based magics because spren transform Stormlight into power rather than summon it. Brandon says, “almost every magic in the cosmere [including Feruchemy] is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it [italics in original].”

Focusing Power

Every known magic system except Surgebinding grants a single ability through a single Focus. Radiant spren act as a dual Focus for Surgebinders. I believe Cultivation transformed two “natural” spren, each with their own Focus, into Radiant spren.

Directing Focused Power

The magic user in every system directs the Focused power to produce some magical effect.

Application to Each System

Following are MY INTERPRETATIONS of these magic systems. I feel text and WoB support these interpretations, but they are still MY OPINION ONLY, not canon.

Allomancy – Body heat (or maybe stomach acid) “burns” metals to begin Allomancy. Preservation’s power, Focused by the metal, Invests the Allomancer. The Allomancer directs the Focused power to perform magic.

Feruchemy – Brandon’s clear that Shard power “facilitates” attribute conversion. The Feruchemist lessens an attribute (increasing entropy) by summoning Ruin’s power and regains the attribute (returns to stasis) by summoning Preservation’s power. The Feruchemist’s metalmind Focuses both powers.

Hemalurgy – Spiking is an act of entropy that summons Ruin’s power through the spike’s metal Focus. Ruin’s Hemalurgic power transfers a magic user’s sDNA to someone else. (Nightblood works the same way – killing is an act of entropy that summons Ruin’s power through Nightblood’s metal Focus. This power allows Nightblood to “destroy evil.”)

Awakening – I believe Awakening drains Investiture from colored objects, not color itself. “Color” is the eye’s perception of reflected light. IMO, Nalthis' electromagnetic radiation (EMR) holds Investiture. Colored objects absorb the Invested photons that aren't reflected as color. The drained Investiture provides the energy to summon Endowment’s animating power. I believe absorbed photons are Invested because the drained objects turn gray – like from a Shardblade cut, Azure’s Shardblade, and Nightblood’s drain on his holders, all of which involve Investiture loss. Awakeners Focus the animating power with a visualized command to the object they give Breath to.

Sand Mastery – Sand Masters begin by dehydrating. I believe Taldain’s water is Invested, as Autonomy’s Investiture radiates its oceans and circulates through the planet’s water cycle. IMO, Sand Masters consume this Investiture to summon Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm power. Khriss says this power forms a “brief Cognitive bond” between Sand Masters and the microflora that configure the sand. I believe the microflora detect and absorb Sand Master water as they dehydrate, and the bond is made through the water contact. Like Awakening, Sand Mastery’s Focus is the visualized command the Master sends the microflora through their bond.

Surgebinding – Surgebinders begin by inhaling Stormlight. Radiant spren transform Stormlight into the power they personify. Spren IMO are Roshar’s Focus. Roshar is the only known planet where Investiture converts directly into power, and spren are the reason. Through the Nahel bond, Surgebinders direct the Radiant spren’s power.

Fabrials – Fabrial magic also begins with Stormlight infusion. Like Radiant spren, the Fabrial’s captive spren are Focuses that transform Stormlight into the power the captive spren personifies – light, heat, gravity, etc. The Fabrial user directs that power (in the way artifabrians designed the Fabrial to be used) by turning the Fabrial on and off.

Voidbinding – Voidlight consumption begins Voidbinding. As Cognitive Shadows imprinted on Odium’s Investiture, the Fused IMO are Voidbinding’s Focus, each splinter giving access to a single power. Voidlight consumption summons this power from the Spiritual Realm. The Fused then direct their Invested power.

Sel’s Magic Systems – I lump these systems together because they were one system before Odium mashed Devotion and Dominion’s power into the Cognitive Realm. I believe Sel’s magic systems still follow the same steps despite their current diversity:

1. I think Sel’s ground holds Investiture like Roshar’s highstorms, Nalthis’ EMR, and Taldain’s oceans do. Evidence: (i) each system’s form is a map of the local topography; (ii) Khriss says, Sel’s “very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness,” (AU, “The Selish System,” Kindle p. 18); and (iii) Raoden needed to draw Aon Rao on the ground, not in the air, to make it effective.

2. Each Selish system begins with motion – drawing a form, or turning an essence stamp, or stirring a potion, or dancing.

3. Each Selish system summons the Dor with Investiture the food chain leaches from the ground. Shai’s essence stamp uses organic inks. Bloodsealers use their target’s blood. Dakhor monk bones hold this Investiture. Forton’s potions IMO use some organic ingredients. The “mostly Spiritual” Elantrians draw Aons from the Dor because Aon Rao amplifies the Dor in Elantris – but Aon Rao itself has to be drawn on the ground.

4. Each system’s topographic form Focuses the Dor into the desired power. Each magic user directs that power for some magical effect.

Conclusion

Not every magic system perfectly follows the predicted paradigm. Feruchemy and non-Awakening Breath transfers begin with commands for Shard power to fuel the magical transaction. Surgebinding and Fabrial spren transform Stormlight into power rather than summon it. But for the most part, the paradigm presents a uniform series of magical steps.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Confused said:

IMO, Nalthis' electromagnetic radiation (EMR) holds Investiture.

Which I still don't understand. There is nothing g special about color on Nalthis. Awakening can be used anywhere, and would drain color anywhere. All it requires is breath, and available color. 

12 minutes ago, Confused said:

Voidbinding – Voidlight consumption begins Voidbinding. As Cognitive Shadows imprinted on Odium’s Investiture, the Fused IMO are Voidbinding’s Focus, each splinter giving access to a single power. Voidlight consumption summons this power from the Spiritual Realm. The Fused then direct their Invested power.

Voodbindi g should require Voidlight no further than Surgebinding requires stormlight. Yes, it may be the default, but similar investiture types are easily converted. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can a Surgebinder use Breath like they can Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This is possible and not really that hard to make work.

source

Quote

Questioner

You've mentioned in the last couple of afterwords that you get interesting results when you mix types of investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Twinborn and Surgebinders on Roshar. Can you mix a form of magic with a source of investiture? Can say Vasher use Stormlight in place of Breaths or would that require tampering via Hemalurgy or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of them require tampering. Some of them are a little bit easier than others. It depends on really what you mean. For instance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? It's just-- But that's not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture. But, you know, it would be very easy, for instance, if you can get yourself Invested-- Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the processes these work easier than other ones.

source

Which as I've stated many times, is one of the main reasons I do not believe we have seen Voidbinding used with Voidlight in a single instance yet. 

15 minutes ago, Confused said:

Sand Mastery – Sand Masters begin by dehydrating. I believe Taldain’s water is Invested, as Autonomy’s Investiture radiates its oceans and circulates through the planet’s water cycle. IMO, Sand Masters consume this Investiture to summon Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm power. Khriss says this power forms a “brief Cognitive bond” between Sand Masters and the microflora that configure the sand. I believe the microflora detect and absorb Sand Master water as they dehydrate, and the bond is made through the water contact. Like Awakening, Sand Mastery’s Focus is the visualized command the Master sends the microflora through their bond.

Per the WoB above, Sand can be charged through any type of investiture, and as far as we've been shown, if you have the ability to use sand, you could use that so long as it charged and you are not dehydrated. 

There is obviously more to sand mastery and Taldain's Investiture than we've been shown, and I don't necessarily disagree that water isn't the focus, but we do not have confirmation, and as we discussed recently, water is not the only option. 

I apologize for focusing on specifics. I disagree that there is a there is a uniform process across magic systems, and should have said that outright at the start. 

I don't even think there's a uniform process across the Metallic Arts and they develop on a shared world. 

[Scion of the Mists]

9 hours ago, Confused said:

Awakening – I believe Awakening drains Investiture from colored objects, not color itself. “Color” is the eye’s perception of reflected light. IMO, Nalthis' electromagnetic radiation (EMR) holds Investiture. Colored objects absorb the Invested photons that aren't reflected as color. The drained Investiture provides the energy to summon Endowment’s animating power. I believe absorbed photons are Invested because the drained objects turn gray – like from a Shardblade cut, Azure’s Shardblade, and Nightblood’s drain on his holders, all of which involve Investiture loss. Awakeners Focus the animating power with a visualized command to the object they give Breath to.

I don't think this is the way that Awakening works for a few reasons.  

1. This would mean that Awakening wouldn't work off-world, when we know that it can (e.g. Azure on Roshar)
2. This would mean that objects could be "reused."  Just put them back out in the sunlight to be recharged with Invested photons.  
3. This would mean that objects that have never been in the sun could not be used to Awaken (although I suppose we don't have any evidence as to whether or not this is the case, it seems odd).  

[MountainKing]

So this is the post everybody is talking about on the discord.

10 hours ago, Confused said:

I believe all “people with magic” systems – where mortals direct magic rather than just interact with it – follow the same basic steps. These steps reflect Brandon’s “unified cosmere laws.” A magic user:

1. Begins by infusing energy into the magical process.

2. Uses that energy to summon Shard power.

3. Focuses that power as it Invests the magic user or an object.

4. Directs the Focused Investiture for some magical effect.

Energy Infusion

Some energy infusion always begins the magical process. Magic users metabolize metal or Investiture, or they move, or they simply command Shard power to add “facilitating” energy (Feruchemy and maybe non-Awakening Breath transfers).

Summoning Shard Power

I theorize the initial energy summons the magic’s actual fuel – Shard power – from the Spiritual Realm (or from the Cognitive Realm for the Dor). The lone exceptions IMO are Roshar’s spren-based magics because spren transform Stormlight into power rather than summon it. Brandon says, “almost every magic in the cosmere [including Feruchemy] is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it [italics in original].”

Focusing Power

Every known magic system except Surgebinding grants a single ability through a single Focus. Radiant spren act as a dual Focus for Surgebinders. I believe Cultivation transformed two “natural” spren, each with their own Focus, into Radiant spren.

Directing Focused Power

The magic user in every system directs the Focused power to produce some magical effect.

Application to Each System

Following are MY INTERPRETATIONS of these magic systems. I feel text and WoB support these interpretations, but they are still MY OPINION ONLY, not canon.

Allomancy – Body heat (or maybe stomach acid) “burns” metals to begin Allomancy. Preservation’s power, Focused by the metal, Invests the Allomancer. The Allomancer directs the Focused power to perform magic.

Feruchemy – Brandon’s clear that Shard power “facilitates” attribute conversion. The Feruchemist lessens an attribute (increasing entropy) by summoning Ruin’s power and regains the attribute (returns to stasis) by summoning Preservation’s power. The Feruchemist’s metalmind Focuses both powers.

Hemalurgy – Spiking is an act of entropy that summons Ruin’s power through the spike’s metal Focus. Ruin’s Hemalurgic power transfers a magic user’s sDNA to someone else. (Nightblood works the same way – killing is an act of entropy that summons Ruin’s power through Nightblood’s metal Focus. This power allows Nightblood to “destroy evil.”)

Awakening – I believe Awakening drains Investiture from colored objects, not color itself. “Color” is the eye’s perception of reflected light. IMO, Nalthis' electromagnetic radiation (EMR) holds Investiture. Colored objects absorb the Invested photons that aren't reflected as color. The drained Investiture provides the energy to summon Endowment’s animating power. I believe absorbed photons are Invested because the drained objects turn gray – like from a Shardblade cut, Azure’s Shardblade, and Nightblood’s drain on his holders, all of which involve Investiture loss. Awakeners Focus the animating power with a visualized command to the object they give Breath to.

Sand Mastery – Sand Masters begin by dehydrating. I believe Taldain’s water is Invested, as Autonomy’s Investiture radiates its oceans and circulates through the planet’s water cycle. IMO, Sand Masters consume this Investiture to summon Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm power. Khriss says this power forms a “brief Cognitive bond” between Sand Masters and the microflora that configure the sand. I believe the microflora detect and absorb Sand Master water as they dehydrate, and the bond is made through the water contact. Like Awakening, Sand Mastery’s Focus is the visualized command the Master sends the microflora through their bond.

Surgebinding – Surgebinders begin by inhaling Stormlight. Radiant spren transform Stormlight into the power they personify. Spren IMO are Roshar’s Focus. Roshar is the only known planet where Investiture converts directly into power, and spren are the reason. Through the Nahel bond, Surgebinders direct the Radiant spren’s power.

Fabrials – Fabrial magic also begins with Stormlight infusion. Like Radiant spren, the Fabrial’s captive spren are Focuses that transform Stormlight into the power the captive spren personifies – light, heat, gravity, etc. The Fabrial user directs that power (in the way artifabrians designed the Fabrial to be used) by turning the Fabrial on and off.

Voidbinding – Voidlight consumption begins Voidbinding. As Cognitive Shadows imprinted on Odium’s Investiture, the Fused IMO are Voidbinding’s Focus, each splinter giving access to a single power. Voidlight consumption summons this power from the Spiritual Realm. The Fused then direct their Invested power.

Sel’s Magic Systems – I lump these systems together because they were one system before Odium mashed Devotion and Dominion’s power into the Cognitive Realm. I believe Sel’s magic systems still follow the same steps despite their current diversity:

1. I think Sel’s ground holds Investiture like Roshar’s highstorms, Nalthis’ EMR, and Taldain’s oceans do. Evidence: (i) each system’s form is a map of the local topography; (ii) Khriss says, Sel’s “very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness,” (AU, “The Selish System,” Kindle p. 18); and (iii) Raoden needed to draw Aon Rao on the ground, not in the air, to make it effective.

2. Each Selish system begins with motion – drawing a form, or turning an essence stamp, or stirring a potion, or dancing.

3. Each Selish system summons the Dor with Investiture the food chain leaches from the ground. Shai’s essence stamp uses organic inks. Bloodsealers use their target’s blood. Dakhor monk bones hold this Investiture. Forton’s potions IMO use some organic ingredients. The “mostly Spiritual” Elantrians draw Aons from the Dor because Aon Rao amplifies the Dor in Elantris – but Aon Rao itself has to be drawn on the ground.

4. Each system’s topographic form Focuses the Dor into the desired power. Each magic user directs that power for some magical effect.

Conclusion

Not every magic system perfectly follows the predicted paradigm. Feruchemy and non-Awakening Breath transfers begin with commands for Shard power to fuel the magical transaction. Surgebinding and Fabrial spren transform Stormlight into power rather than summon it. But for the most part, the paradigm presents a uniform series of magical steps.

For Allomancy, Perservation gives you investiture to burn the metals.

I also think that there would be two uniforms systems of magic. Passive (environmental) magic systems and Active magic systems. The birds on First of Sun, dawnsingers transformations and fabrials? on Roshar, and the Shades on that one planet, don't behave like regular magic systems.

Edited December 12, 2018 by MountainKing
Adding stuff, like "that one planet"

[RShara]

14 hours ago, Confused said:

Awakening – I believe Awakening drains Investiture from colored objects, not color itself. “Color” is the eye’s perception of reflected light. IMO, Nalthis' electromagnetic radiation (EMR) holds Investiture. Colored objects absorb the Invested photons that aren't reflected as color. The drained Investiture provides the energy to summon Endowment’s animating power. I believe absorbed photons are Invested because the drained objects turn gray – like from a Shardblade cut, Azure’s Shardblade, and Nightblood’s drain on his holders, all of which involve Investiture loss. Awakeners Focus the animating power with a visualized command to the object they give Breath to.

Didn't we discuss this and conclude that any type of color from any planet would work as fuel for Awakening? The key point being Azure able to Awaken those bales of cloth in Shadesmar?

[Confused]

Magic Systems Off-World

A cosmere with unified laws IMO should have uniform magical processes (with some variation). Just because the magics themselves differ doesn’t mean their processes differ. The OP looks only at magic systems on their native planets. IMO, these are the best exemplars of a uniform process. My focus on these exemplars has apparently caused confusion.

To be clear, I believe

1. All magic systems except the Selish ones can theoretically make magic on any planet.

2. Mechanically, any Physical Realm investiture can convert to energy to start the magical process even if the Investiture is not from the Shard whose magic system it is. PR Investitures do not themselves make magic in the “people with magic” systems. Only Spiritual Realm Investiture (Shard power) IMO makes magic.

3, A magic user’s sDNA determines their ability to use an Investiture. The magic user generally must “hack” their sDNA to convert non-native PR Investiture into energy.

With that said, I’ll respond to your individual comments.

On 12/11/2018 at 9:06 PM, Calderis said:

Which I still don't understand. There is nothing g special about color on Nalthis. Awakening can be used anywhere, and would drain color anywhere. All it requires is breath, and available color. 

We agree: “There is nothing special about color on Nalthis.” How Awakeners make magic will be the same everywhere. But we disagree that “All it requires is breath, and available color.”

I feel your view ignores magic’s need for initial energy. “Color” holds no energy: “The color of an object is not actually within the object itself. Rather, the color is in the light that shines upon it and is ultimately reflected or transmitted to our eyes.” If “color” is not within the object, then draining “color” from the object adds nothing to the magic.

Awakening must require some fuel other than “Breath and available color” to work. The proof IMO is what Brandon says about using Rosharan gemstones to Awaken. Gemstones are made from Investiture (cut from animal gemhearts) or hold residual Stormlight like Rosharans themselves. When Awakeners drain “color” from the gemstone, they destroy the gemstone’s capacity to function. The gemstone turn “dusty gray.”

Turning “gray” means the person or object has LOST INVESTITURE. If objects only lost color, they’d turn black. No light reflects from a black object because it absorbs all the light. Yet black is the best color for Awakening because light-absorbing black objects also absorb the most Investiture. Light-reflecting white objects absorb the least Investiture, and white is the worst Awakening color.

Maybe there’s another explanation for these facts. But color ISN’T Awakening’s energy source.

On 12/11/2018 at 9:06 PM, Calderis said:

Voodbindi g should require Voidlight no further than Surgebinding requires stormlight. Yes, it may be the default, but similar investiture types are easily converted....

On 12/11/2018 at 9:06 PM, Calderis said:

Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy.

Which as I've stated many times, is one of the main reasons I do not believe we have seen Voidbinding used with Voidlight in a single instance yet.

Again, the Investiture that STARTS the magical process can come from any Shard (if the magic user has the right inborn or hacked sDNA). When Glys uses Stormlight to “Voidbind” (if Renarin does Voidbind), Glys does what all spren do – he transforms (converts) the Stormlight into power, using some Stormlight to energize the transformation itself.

The Fused are not spren and cannot transform PR Investiture directly into power. That means the Fused use Voidlight to summon Odium’s Spiritual Realm power – the same process as every non-spren magic system. The Fused are cloaked in Voidlight and IMO don’t use Stormlight even if they could. Honor’s Perpendicularity blows away the Fused attacking Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin in Shadesmar: “Fused screamed as a wind blasted them away, though Kaladin felt nothing.” (OB, Chapter 119, Kindle p. 1136.)

Spren ability to transform PR Investiture into Shard power is why Breath-fueled Windrunning should be “easy.” Magic users inhale both Breath and Stormlight. If a Breath holder can attract and bond a Radiant spren and speak the oaths, the Radiant spren could transform Breath into power, and off they go. (Expensive, though.)

On 12/11/2018 at 9:06 PM, Calderis said:

Per the WoB above, Sand can be charged through any type of investiture, and as far as we've been shown, if you have the ability to use sand, you could use that so long as it charged and you are not dehydrated.

Yes, lichen can be charged with any Investiture, but Brandon says lichen-charging “isn’t the magic.” Sand Mastery’s magic is forming the Cognitive bond with the lichen to configure the sand. Khriss is clear Sand Mastery draws Spiritual Realm power to make this bond.

A Sand Master could theoretically hack their sDNA to consume some other PR Investiture than Taldain’s to summon power. They would still have to transmit that power by water to the lichen to make their Cognitive bond.

On 12/11/2018 at 9:06 PM, Calderis said:

I don't even think there's a uniform process across the Metallic Arts and they develop on a shared world. 

Which one of these systems’ described steps do you disagree with? They seem pretty straight-forward to me and follow book and WoB descriptions.

On 12/12/2018 at 6:08 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

I don't think this is the way that Awakening works for a few reasons.  

1. This would mean that Awakening wouldn't work off-world, when we know that it can (e.g. Azure on Roshar)
2. This would mean that objects could be "reused."  Just put them back out in the sunlight to be recharged with Invested photons.  
3. This would mean that objects that have never been in the sun could not be used to Awaken (although I suppose we don't have any evidence as to whether or not this is the case, it seems odd).

1. Awakening CAN be used off-world. It just requires draining some other PR Investiture than Endowment’s. Rosharan Awakening runs on Stormlight. Awakening IMO needs “color” because Endowment’s “primal force,” her “means of access” to Investiture, is EMR. It doesn’t matter what PR Investiture activates that pathway.

2. Interesting point. Do we know they can’t? (I don’t remember one way or other.) If a colored object can be re-charged and re-drained, that doesn’t tell us much. But if it can’t be, Investiture loss must permanently change the object (like Rosharan gemstones). Mere color loss wouldn’t do that.

3. Un-Invested objects can’t be used, IMO. How the object becomes Invested doesn’t matter as long as the object can transmit the energy down an EMR pathway.

On 12/12/2018 at 6:53 AM, MountainKing said:

For Allomancy, Perservation gives you investiture to burn the metals.

What Investiture burns the metals? The Allomantic gene is sDNA. That gives Allomancers their magical ability, but they don’t use the Allomantic gene as fuel. Are you referring to something else?

On 12/12/2018 at 6:53 AM, MountainKing said:

I also think that there would be two uniforms systems of magic. Passive (environmental) magic systems and Active magic systems. The birds on First of Sun, dawnsingers transformations and fabrials? on Roshar, and the Shades on that one planet, don't behave like regular magic systems.

I agree with this, as first stated in my (over-starched) “Classification of Magic Systems” post. The OP’s first sentence limits its scope to “people with magic” systems the Shards created, not the pre-Shattering “interaction with nature” systems. In my “Magic System Components – General Theory” post, I propose “interaction with nature” systems have only Fuel and Focus as components.

On 12/12/2018 at 10:43 AM, RShara said:

Didn't we discuss this and conclude that any type of color from any planet would work as fuel for Awakening? The key point being Azure able to Awaken those bales of cloth in Shadesmar?

I concluded from our discussion that any type of PR Investiture (not color) from any planet could fuel Awakening and most other magics (if you hack your sDNA). Again, IMO these PR Investitures are the fuel to summon Shard power. They do not directly make magic. That is Shard power’s role.

For Movie and Music Buffs, Apropos of Nothing…

I posted The Magnificent Seven theme in the “Cosmere Magic Game” thread as the soundtrack for Szeth and Lift stealing the King’s Drop. If you like truly rousing music, I urge you to listen to this theme. Its main melody sounds like Szeth flying. A staccato counterpoint (Lift scooting) supports the main melody. About halfway through (the 2:30 mark?), the theme’s slow bridge conjures Szeth and Lift healing from Nightblood’s damage and then walking up to Dalinar. The main melody triumphantly returns to send the pair racing off again. They recover the ruby and give it to Dalinar at theme’s end.

The Magnificent Seven was a Hollywood remake of Akira Kurosawa’s Seven Samurai. Before cigarette commercials were banned from TV, the theme played as background to the “Marlboro Man” commercials. Some of us are old enough to remember them. I loved the music before I found out it came from a movie. The power of advertising…

[Calderis]

44 minutes ago, Confused said:

I feel your view ignores magic’s need for initial energy.

And I suppose the root of my objection is that this is not a rule stated anywhere in the books or WoBs to my knowledge.

Investiture is needed in some way shape or form. And the ability itself is needed. If you have access, and you have investiture, you have what you need, barring any specific hurdles of the specific system (metal on scadrial, color on Nalthis, etc.) 

[Energy Surge]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

We agree: “There is nothing special about color on Nalthis.” How Awakeners make magic will be the same everywhere. But we disagree that “All it requires is breath, and available color.”

I feel your view ignores magic’s need for initial energy. “Color” holds no energy: “The color of an object is not actually within the object itself. Rather, the color is in the light that shines upon it and is ultimately reflected or transmitted to our eyes.” If “color” is not within the object, then draining “color” from the object adds nothing to the magic.

Awakening must require some fuel other than “Breath and available color” to work. The proof IMO is what Brandon says about using Rosharan gemstones to Awaken. Gemstones are made from Investiture (cut from animal gemhearts) or hold residual Stormlight like Rosharans themselves. When Awakeners drain “color” from the gemstone, they destroy the gemstone’s capacity to function. The gemstone turn “dusty gray.”

Turning “gray” means the person or object has LOST INVESTITURE. If objects only lost color, they’d turn black. No light reflects from a black object because it absorbs all the light. Yet black is the best color for Awakening because light-absorbing black objects also absorb the most Investiture. Light-reflecting white objects absorb the least Investiture, and white is the worst Awakening color.

I think Awakening has more to do with molecules of pigment and dye than photons of light. I think the fact that black is the best and you leave behind a gray lends more to the idea of the subtractive color of dyes being the primary source of Awakening rather than the additive color of light. When you mix dyes together they get closer and closer to black as the different dyes absorb more and more of the visible spectrum of light. So black is stronger because there is more dye to fuel Awakening.

When Nightblood is finally sheathed or thrown down by the wielder the black tendrils that spread up the user's arm leave behind gray marks on the user. The pigment in their skin has been consumed and their skin is now a dead flesh zombie color. When the color in garments are used to Awaken they become a gray color because the dyes that gave them their striking colors have been consumed in the Awakening process. The Tears of Edgli flowers that are prized on Nalthis for their use in making striking dyes are thought to be named after Endowment's vessel and be sort of like the shard's God Metal or being somehow affected by a nearby shardpool.

I think there's a WoB that pretty much confirms light has nothing to do with Awakening. Someone asked if you could Awaken without light. He said it is possible. And a different WoB asked more about light: Someone asked if you shined red light onto a wall, could it be used to Awaken. But Brandon said the color would have been drained from the light bulb, not the wall. That's where the actual color on the wall comes from, the frosted glass that filters the other colors out from the light bulb's light. And that is what would lose color.

Quote

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

Can you Awaken in total darkness; no light whatsoever?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This is possible.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

If you shine a red light on a white wall, could you use the color from that to Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ooh, good question! I would say you would end up leeching the color out of the lightbulb that you were shining through.

source

Somehow dyes act as a visible fuel in Awakening. Since it works anywhere, the dyes presumably don't need any special investiture to function. Similarly to how metals don't need special investiture to fuel Allomancy or allow Feruchemy to utilize them.

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

On 12/12/2018 at 9:08 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

I don't think this is the way that Awakening works for a few reasons.  

1. This would mean that Awakening wouldn't work off-world, when we know that it can (e.g. Azure on Roshar)
2. This would mean that objects could be "reused."  Just put them back out in the sunlight to be recharged with Invested photons.  
3. This would mean that objects that have never been in the sun could not be used to Awaken (although I suppose we don't have any evidence as to whether or not this is the case, it seems odd).  

1. Awakening CAN be used off-world. It just requires draining some other PR Investiture than Endowment’s. Rosharan Awakening runs on Stormlight. Awakening IMO needs “color” because Endowment’s “primal force,” her “means of access” to Investiture, is EMR. It doesn’t matter what PR Investiture activates that pathway.

2. Interesting point. Do we know they can’t? (I don’t remember one way or other.) If a colored object can be re-charged and re-drained, that doesn’t tell us much. But if it can’t be, Investiture loss must permanently change the object (like Rosharan gemstones). Mere color loss wouldn’t do that.

3. Un-Invested objects can’t be used, IMO. How the object becomes Invested doesn’t matter as long as the object can transmit the energy down an EMR pathway.

1. So you think that Azure used Stormlight to perform her Awakening in Oathbringer?  I don't think that makes sense - isn't a key obstacle they have in the Shadesmar sequence a lack of Stormlight?  

 

2. There are a couple of scenes in Warbreaker that deal with the color-draining on the Returned palaces.  In one, Vasher drains color from the roof of God King's palace.  He then chuckles, thinking how upset the priests are going to be that the palace is messed up.  This wouldn't make sense if the sun would just "refresh" the color.  

Additionally, Lifeless stay grey, even when exposed to sunlight.  Also, having an Awakener-specific prison cell, made entirely out of white/grey things wouldn't be very effective if they could regain their color at any moment.  

As you say, Awakening has to permanently change the object, which mere siphoning off of Investiture wouldn't do.  I agree with @Energy Surge and others that Awakening permanently affects an objects pigments (i.e. the molecules that determine color).  I think this is inline with all of Brandon's WoBs

• The red light can't be used because the pigments are in the light bulb
• You can Awaken in darkness because the pigments are still there regardless of whether or not light's shining on them
• This mirrors Roshar where the pigments are what determine what "type" of gem it is

[Confused]

The question: What is Awakening’s fuel? It isn’t Breath or color. Can we agree Awakening drains the Investiture held in “pigment” as its fuel? Reasoning:

A. Nalthis is the world of color and light – electromagnetic radiation. Its Cognitive Realm subastral mirrors that perception. Its magic system is based on indivisible BioChromatic Breaths, quanta of Investiture. Photons are quanta of EMR. The Heightenings are the quantization of Breaths.

B. I infer Nalthis’ inherent Investiture resides in its electromagnetic field and disperses through EMR. This parallels how other pre-Shattering Shardworlds hold and distribute their inherent Investiture: Roshar’s highstorms, Taldain’s oceans (through its water cycle), and Sel’s ground.

C. I believe EMR-transmitted Investiture stays in an object even as the photons’ energy dissipates as heat. This Investiture sticks to pigment because pigment absorbs more EMR than pure white, and the darker the pigment, the more absorbed EMR. The pigment-adhering Investiture IMO is Awakening's fuel. I don’t see how pigment molecules alone fuel Awakening.

On 12/13/2018 at 11:42 AM, Ookla, the Hivemind said:

And I suppose the root of my objection is that this is not a rule stated anywhere in the books or WoBs to my knowledge.

Investiture is needed in some way shape or form. And the ability itself is needed. If you have access, and you have investiture, you have what you need, barring any specific hurdles of the specific system (metal on scadrial, color on Nalthis, etc.) 

The “unstated rule” is basic cosmere physics (ours, plus Investiture). In our world, energy begins a process. In the cosmere, Investiture can substitute for energy to begin a magical process. Since neither Breath (sDNA) nor color is Awakening’s fuel, I agree Investiture must supply it.

@Energy Surge:

Draining Rosharan gemstones of color undercuts your pigment argument. Gemstone color stems from the gemstone’s impurities. That shows “draining color” is purely a phenomenon of light, not pigment.

I read Brandon’s two WoBs differently from you. It is “possible” to Awaken in “total darkness” (under my theory) if the drained object already holds Investiture, and you Awaken using EMR other than visible light – for example, ultraviolet or infrared light, X-rays, or radio waves. The second WoB also works under my theory. “Leaching” the red bulb’s color means draining the Investiture the pigment absorbs and destroying the pigment’s ability to absorb EMR.

On 12/13/2018 at 0:32 PM, Energy Surge said:

The pigment in their skin has been consumed and their skin is now a dead flesh zombie color.

You think loss of skin pigment, not Investiture, puts Szeth and Lift at the edge of death? Nale warns Szeth to make sure he has plenty of Stormlight for Nightblood. When Nightblood runs out of Stormlight, he drains his holder’s Investiture. The Investiture drain destroys the pigment’s ability to absorb EMR, which is why Szeth and Lift are permanently gray-streaked.

On 12/13/2018 at 0:32 PM, Energy Surge said:

Somehow dyes act as a visible fuel in Awakening. Since it works anywhere, the dyes presumably don't need any special investiture to function. Similarly to how metals don't need special investiture to fuel Allomancy or allow Feruchemy to utilize them.

Metals don’t fuel Allomancy. An Allomancer’s internal body function (“burning”) provides the energy to cause metals to vibrate. This “resonance” summons Preservation’s Spiritual Realm power, which Invests the Allomancer. Marasi describes metal as Preservation’s “pathway to power,” and I believe EMR is Endowment’s pathway to her power.

Every magic needs some energy to start going. Even “end-neutral” Feruchemy gets energy from a “facilitating” Spiritual Realm power.

@Scion of the Mists:

1. I did not say Azure used Stormlight in Shadesmar. I did say, intending a general rule, “Rosharan Awakening runs on Stormlight.” A better rule is “Awakening needs Physical Realm Investiture, from whatever source, as energy to summon Spiritual Realm power down Endowment’s EMR pathway.”

2. YOU’RE the one who says Nalthis’ sun refreshes color, not me. I say Awakening drains Investiture. If color is leached from a Rosharan gemstone, for example, the gemstone turns into “dusty quartz” and loses its function. It can still hold Stormlight because of its unchanged molecular structure. Since a gemstone has no “pigment” and gains color solely from light striking impurities, something fundamental and Spiritual happens to the gemstone beyond mere color loss.

Siphoning off Investiture won’t permanently change an object? Szeth and Lift might disagree (as would the Rosharan gemstones).

Conclusion

I believe Nalthis’ electromagnetic field holds Investiture and transmits it through EMR. Pigment absorbs Investiture-carrying photons. That Investiture remains in the pigment even after the photons yield their energy as heat. “Draining color” means draining the Investiture now held in the pigment and permanently (Spiritually) changing the pigment’s capacity to absorb EMR.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Confused

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Confused said:

The question: What is Awakening’s fuel? It isn’t Breath or color. Can we agree Awakening drains the Investiture held in “pigment” as its fuel?

I don't agree. It's not the investiture in the pigment, anymore than it's the investiture in the impurities of a gem that designate what spren it is able to hold and how. 

19 minutes ago, Confused said:

The “unstated rule” is basic cosmere physics (ours, plus Investiture). In our world, energy begins a process. In the cosmere, Investiture can substitute for energy to begin a magical process. Since neither Breath (sDNA) nor color is Awakening’s fuel, I agree Investiture must supply it.

And as stated, I disagree here. The Investure involved in Awakening is the breath itself. A command is given, color is drained, and the investiture takes shape and acts. We don't know the mechanics of color drain beyond that it happens. Anything on the specifics of such is guesswork. 

19 minutes ago, Confused said:

An Allomancer’s internal body function (“burning”) provides the energy to cause metals to vibrate. This “resonance” summons Preservation’s Spiritual Realm power, which Invests the Allomancer.

This is an assumption. We don't know anything more specific about "burning" metal than we do about color drain. It provides more heat than the body produces per the descriptions in book. There's no mention of vibration anywhere to my knowledge. 

19 minutes ago, Confused said:

You think loss of skin pigment, not Investiture, puts Szeth and Lift at the edge of death? Nale warns Szeth to make sure he has plenty of Stormlight for Nightblood. When Nightblood runs out of Stormlight, he drains his holder’s Investiture. The Investiture drain destroys the pigment’s ability to absorb EMR, which is why Szeth and Lift are permanently gray-streaked.

Of course there's an investiture lose. But again, your making an assumption. 

A shardblade cut limb also turns gray, but there is absolutely no investiture consumption, or awakening occurring there. The limb has just been severed spiritually. So why the color drain per your model? 

When nightblood feeds, color is drained where his vein like growth attach to the host. The color is obviously not the focus of that drain as it takes stormlight or breath or whatever else being held, and then moves on to the spark of life. The color drain here is a side effect. And from everything we've seen of it, unlike a shard severed limb or color drained in Awakening, this recovers. 

I will reiterate. I see no evidence that there is any "initial energy" needed that we are not told about in books or WoBs.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Ookla, the Hivemind

[Confused]

@Ookla, the Hivemind (Cal), in the Broadway musical 1776, John Adams says to the Continental Congress, “Consider yourselves fortunate that you have John Adams to abuse, for no sane man would tolerate it!” You may consider yourself fortunate (or not) that I’m insane…

All Magic Has an Activation Cost

On 12/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, Ookla, the Hivemind said:

I see no evidence that there is any "initial energy" needed that we are not told about in books or WoBs.

Basic physics requires an outside force or energy to change a system in equilibrium. Brandon says the cosmere is our physics plus Investiture. (Do we agree on this or do I have to find the WoB?) In the real world, chemical reactions “will not occur unless a certain amount of activation energy is added first. In this sense, all reactions absorb energy before they begin…[bold in original].” Also, objects remain at rest or in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. (Newton’s First Law of Motion – Inertia.)

Investiture can substitute for cosmere energy or matter, but it doesn’t change the need for some “activation” force or energy. In King Lear’s terms, “Nothing will come of nothing.” To me, this is bedrock principle, here and in the cosmere.

Two Theories for Awakening’s Activation Cost

Theory 1: My favored theory is that Nalthis’ inherent Investiture transmits through EMR. “Every world created” has inherent Investiture. I believe Nalthis’ electromagnetic field holds its inherent Investiture the way highstorms hold Stormlight, Taldain’s oceans hold Autonomy’s Investiture, etc. (Where do you think Nalthis’ inherent Investiture is in a world of color and light?) An object’s pigment absorbs the Invested EMR. Draining color drains this Investiture.

Theory 2: Maybe “color draining” pulls in the Investiture that comprises a pigment’s Spiritual Realm aspect. Draining color seems to destroy an object’s ability to absorb EMR. Since pigment is Physical Realm matter, it has a Spiritual aspect. That Investiture may be enough to jump-start Awakening.

Allomancy’s Activation Cost – The Science of Metal Burning

On 12/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, Ookla, the Hivemind said:

This is an assumption. We don't know anything more specific about "burning" metal than we do about color drain. It provides more heat than the body produces per the descriptions in book. There's no mention of vibration anywhere to my knowledge.

These are NOT assumptions. Brandon says:

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The 'burning' of metals was chosen because it resonated with science--the basic way we gain energy is by ingesting things and breaking them down for chemical energy. I wanted something that felt like it had one foot in science, but was also very magical. (Source, bold added.)

Burning metals sounds so weird, but it was chosen for that same reason, because we gain a lot of our energy through metabolism. We eat something, we turn the sugars into energy, boom. So that’s actually a very natural feeling. (Source, bold added.)

Brandon equates metal burning with metabolism. While metabolism releases energy, it first adds energy to begin breaking food down. “Burning” metals releases Preservation’s power by adding the body’s energy.

Brandon says a metal’s “resonance” makes it a Focus:

Quote

[With Allomancy] you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. Source (bold added).

“Resonance” in metal refers to vibrational frequency:

Quote

Mechanical resonance is the tendency of a mechanical system to absorb more energy when the frequency of its oscillations matches the system's natural frequency of  vibration  than it does at other frequencies. It may cause violent swaying motions and even catastrophic failure in improperly constructed structures…. [Source (links in original).]

IOW, Allomancers’ metabolic function causes metals to vibrate at unique frequencies. Each unique frequency makes that metal a Focus for a specific Preservation power.

Awakening Needs More than “Breath, Command and Color”

On 12/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, Ookla, the Hivemind said:

The Investure involved in Awakening is the breath itself. A command is given, color is drained, and the investiture takes shape and acts. We don't know the mechanics of color drain beyond that it happens. Anything on the specifics of such is guesswork.

Where is the fuel? It’s not Breath or color. Awakeners recapture their indivisible Breaths, and “color” doesn’t exist. You seem to acknowledge Investiture’s role as fuel:

On 12/13/2018 at 11:42 AM, Ookla, the Hivemind said:

Investiture is needed in some way shape or form. And the ability itself is needed. If you have access, and you have investiture, you have what you need, barring any specific hurdles of the specific system (metal on scadrial, color on Nalthis, etc.) [Bold added.]

Agreed. If a magic user has “access” and Investiture, “you have what you need.” For Awakening, Breath supplies “access,” the ability itself, but Breath is the Awakener’s sDNA. Breath can convert to energy, but we know Awakeners don’t do that, since they get back 100% of their Breaths undiminished. If Breath and color are not fuel, then the Awakener needs Investiture (or other energy) to activate the magic.

Nightblood and Pigment Loss

The Nightblood comment was for @Energy Surge, who apparently believes Szeth and Lift nearly died from pigment loss.

On 12/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, Ookla, the Hivemind said:

A shardblade cut limb also turns gray, but there is absolutely no investiture consumption, or awakening occurring there. The limb has just been severed spiritually. So why the color drain per your model? 

When nightblood feeds, color is drained where his vein like growth attach to the host. The color is obviously not the focus of that drain as it takes stormlight or breath or whatever else being held, and then moves on to the spark of life. The color drain here is a side effect. And from everything we've seen of it, unlike a shard severed limb or color drained in Awakening, this recovers. 

A Shardblade-cut limb turns gray because the limb’s Connection to the person’s Spiritual Realm aspect severs. Investiture no longer extends into the Spiritually severed limb, just like blood no longer flows into a physically severed limb. The limb can’t be used again without Spiritual healing (like Kaladin’s arm after Szeth slices it). “Color draining” for Awakening is the same thing – an object loses its ability to absorb EMR when drained. Like a Shardblade cut, Investiture drain changes the object’s Spiritual Realm aspect. In both cases, “turning gray” associates with Investiture loss.

I don’t recall if Nightblood’s holders recover their color. When Szeth gets his orders from Dalinar, after Nightblood drains Szeth, Szeth’s face is still “streaked with grey.” Maybe he can Spiritually heal his gray streaks with Stormlight, like Kaladin did. As a Returned, Vasher can cover up pigment loss and, with enough Breath, can maybe heal it too.

Conclusion

Cal, I will eat Overlord Jebus’ other shoe (by whatever name he now goes by) if you’re right and Awakening is just Breath and color with no other Investiture or activation cost. Will you, if you’re wrong? Also, I wouldn’t be too quick to tar others for “unfounded” theory based on “assumption.” I can point to a number of your theories that suffer that defect. Most theorizing is speculation built on incomplete information. As long as a theory works on its own terms and doesn’t contradict known “facts,” it’s as good as any other. (And if a theory fits with other theories to explain the broader cosmere, even better.)

Edited December 17, 2018 by Confused

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Cal, I will eat Overlord Jebus’ other shoe (by whatever name he now goes by) if you’re right and Awakening is just Breath and color with no other Investiture or activation cost. Will you, if you’re wrong? Also, I wouldn’t be too quick to tar others for “unfounded” theory based on “assumption.” I can point to a number of your theories that suffer that defect. Most theorizing is speculation built on incomplete information. As long as a theory works on its own terms and doesn’t contradict known “facts,” it’s as good as any other. (And if a theory fits with other theories to explain the broader cosmere, even better.)

I am by no means perfect, and I don't claim to be. There are assumptions in my theories and I attempt to either address them with evidence or say that they are in fact assumptions. 

In the event that I do not address it, I expect people to call me out on it. That is the entire point of posting a theory. To have it exposed to scrutiny, which will either break it, or make it stronger. 

2 hours ago, Confused said:

Basic physics requires an outside force or energy to change a system in equilibrium. Brandon says the cosmere is our physics plus Investiture. (Do we agree on this or do I have to find the WoB?) In the real world, chemical reactions “will not occur unless a certain amount of activation energy is added first. In this sense, all reactions absorb energy before they begin…[bold in original].” Also, objects remain at rest or in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. (Newton’s First Law of Motion – Inertia.)

Investiture can substitute for cosmere energy or matter, but it doesn’t change the need for some “activation” force or energy. In King Lear’s terms, “Nothing will come of nothing.” To me, this is bedrock principle, here and in the cosmere.

There is another factor in the Cosmere. Capital I Intent. The way that Brandon uses it. This is the impetus for Awakening via the command. You have the Investiture of the breath itself, the color as the fuel which is consumed, and the command as the trigger of intent that breath are built to accept. 

2 hours ago, Confused said:

but Breath is the Awakener’s sDNA.

I very much disagree.

As to your arguments for metal, I think you are taking Brandon's analogies far too literally. Again, burning is sparked by Intent. The same with Feruchemy. And "Resonance" in this instance could be a Spiritual thing described however Brandon chooses, see as the metal determines the power in Feruchemy as well and there is again, no mention of vibration anywhere. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

It seems to me that color is a spiritual aspect like Feruchemical strength or speed. Would likely explain how it works as fuel and why Nightblood left permanent marks on Szeth and Lift, he damaged their spiritual Identities. I wonder what metal you would need to store it.

 

Edit for my crappy grammar.

Edited December 17, 2018 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Scion of the Mists]

On 12/17/2018 at 3:15 PM, Confused said:

Theory 1: My favored theory is that Nalthis’ inherent Investiture transmits through EMR. “Every world created” has inherent Investiture. I believe Nalthis’ electromagnetic field holds its inherent Investiture the way highstorms hold Stormlight, Taldain’s oceans hold Autonomy’s Investiture, etc. (Where do you think Nalthis’ inherent Investiture is in a world of color and light?) An object’s pigment absorbs the Invested EMR. Draining color drains this Investiture.

Two questions:

1. Doesn't Taldain's Investiture come from the sun?  Or is this not confirmed?  Wouldn't your model for Nalthis be basically the same (i.e. Investiture is radiated from the sun, and absorbed/stored by lichen/pigments)?  
2. I see you left Scadrial off of this list.  We know that Scadrian metals are not inherently Invested - the Investiture comes directly from Preservation in the Spiritual Realm, with the metal acting as a focus for that power.  Why couldn't "color" (whatever that ends up meaning) act in a similar way for Awakening?  

P.s. Completely agree with your point about Breath itself not being the fuel (that wouldn't make sense as it's not consumed).  

[Quantus]

48 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

1. Doesn't Taldain's Investiture come from the sun?  Or is this not confirmed?  Wouldn't your model for Nalthis be basically the same (i.e. Investiture is radiated from the sun, and absorbed/stored by lichen/pigments)?  

 

As far as I know the sand itself is special and contains microorganism responsible for the Investiture, which can be recharged by exposure to to the Sun or to any form of kinetic Investiture.  That could mean that the Sun contains Investiture that the microorganisms use, meaning it's the exact same mechanism as being charged by nearby Investiture.  Or it could be that they have a way to metabolize Investiture inside themselves (similar to how many rosharan creatures are creating gemhearts via an internal connection to the Spiritual Realm) and the sun is simply required for their internal process like a plant, which would then imply that exposure to Kinetic Investiture is bypassing their natural Investiture metabolism and skipping straight into the sand-microbes storage part of the process. 

In either case I think that Color is to Breaths as Water is to Sand Mastery, and also that White Sand has storage capability similar to Gems on Roshar.  As I understand it gem would charge if exposed to any perpendicularity, not specifically those of the Shards invested in Roshar and the Highstorm. 

[RShara]

4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Two questions:

1. Doesn't Taldain's Investiture come from the sun?  Or is this not confirmed?  Wouldn't your model for Nalthis be basically the same (i.e. Investiture is radiated from the sun, and absorbed/stored by lichen/pigments)?  
2. I see you left Scadrial off of this list.  We know that Scadrian metals are not inherently Invested - the Investiture comes directly from Preservation in the Spiritual Realm, with the metal acting as a focus for that power.  Why couldn't "color" (whatever that ends up meaning) act in a similar way for Awakening?  

P.s. Completely agree with your point about Breath itself not being the fuel (that wouldn't make sense as it's not consumed).  

Yeah, Taldain's investiture definitely comes from the sun. You can use it off-planet as long as the light reaches you.

Quote

swieczq

Would someone with enough knowledge be able to use Autonomy’s Investiture if Taldain’s star was seen from his world?

Brandon Sanderson

So I’m on a world and I see Taldain’s star, what you're asking if someone could use the Investiture? Oh, OK I see. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That’s good! You stumped me. I haven’t gotten that question before. I would say yes, if the light particles are reaching you. I mean technically you could use the light from one of those stars to power a solar sail so…

source

[Confused]

 

On 12/18/2018 at 1:45 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

Doesn't Taldain's Investiture come from the sun?  Or is this not confirmed?  Wouldn't your model for Nalthis be basically the same (i.e. Investiture is radiated from the sun, and absorbed/stored by lichen/pigments)?  

Yes, Autonomy’s Investiture comes from the Dayside sun. Khriss confirms this in AU. But I think most of the Investiture ends up in the ocean. The planet’s water cycle circulates the Investiture throughout the planet including Darkside. Sand Masters (and everyone else on Taldain) IMO drink Invested water and Daysiders absorb Invested solar radiation.

Nalthis’ sun does generate that planet’s EMR – though the lightbulb WoB confirms mechanical EMR sources. But would Brandon duplicate Taldain’s Invested solar radiation mechanic?

My doubt leans me toward my previous post’s Theory 2: “Color draining” Spiritually drains an object’s capacity to hold EMR. As you all say, that capacity resides in the object’s pigment. I think Awakeners drain the Investiture that comprises a pigment’s Spiritual Realm aspect. That Investiture activates Awakening. “Color draining,” IOW, destroys pigment in all three Realms just like Nightblood destroys “evil” people.

On 12/18/2018 at 1:45 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

I see you left Scadrial off of this list.  We know that Scadrian metals are not inherently Invested - the Investiture comes directly from Preservation in the Spiritual Realm, with the metal acting as a focus for that power.  Why couldn't "color" (whatever that ends up meaning) act in a similar way for Awakening?

I omit Scadrial because it’s not a pre-Shattering world. I focus on the inherent Investiture Adonalsium left on planets. Quantus asks a similar question to yours:

On 12/18/2018 at 2:43 PM, Quantus said:

In either case I think that Color is to Breaths as Water is to Sand Mastery, and also that White Sand has storage capability similar to Gems on Roshar.  As I understand it gem would charge if exposed to any perpendicularity, not specifically those of the Shards invested in Roshar and the Highstorm. 

I agree with both of you: Awakening’s color, Allomancy’s metals, and Sand Mastery’s water share a magical function. IMO, each is their Shard’s “pathway to power” down which Investiture transitions Realms. (Unlike color and water, metal is also a Focus and, Khriss says in BoM, a “catalyst.”) A November 2018 WoB describes cosmere “natural pathways.” I think water is Autonomy’s pathway generally and not just for Sand Mastery: Autonomy built Patji from the ocean, like Adonalsium built the Roshan continent (with Autonomy’s “assigned Investiture” IMO).

On 12/17/2018 at 2:25 PM, Calderis said:

As to your arguments for metal, I think you are taking Brandon's analogies far too literally. Again, burning is sparked by Intent. The same with Feruchemy. And "Resonance" in this instance could be a Spiritual thing described however Brandon chooses, see as the metal determines the power in Feruchemy as well and there is again, no mention of vibration anywhere. 

You ask a good question, why do Allomancers burn metals but not Feruchemists, when metal accesses Shard power in both cases. The “writerly” answer: Brandon wrote Mistborn before cosmere “laws” fully crystallized. He later regretted his end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative distinction because it “doesn’t scale well” to other worlds and magics. That WoB says almost every magic is end-positive, including Feruchemy. I think Brandon’s refined the cosmere’s rules since MB.

The in-world answer: The Allomantic gene just works differently from the Feruchemical gene. Allomancy requires activation energy like every known magic system except the two nominally end-neutral systems Feruchemy and non-Awakening Breath transfers.

Allomantic Intent does “spark burning” (a plus for your metaphor and a minus for your analogy). That’s like saying your decision to strike the match starts the fire and not the match itself. You still need the match’s activation energy. Besides, it doesn’t take a lot of energy to get a metal’s static molecular structure resonating. Lift’s metabolism transforms food into Stormlight, which I suspect takes a lot more energy than vibration – she’s awfully skinny.

You say, “And ‘Resonance’ in this instance could be a Spiritual thing described however Brandon chooses. [Italics added.]” I don’t believe Brandon would casually pick the very word that culminates his description: “the molecular structure of the metal…what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal…filters the power.” A metal’s resonance is a unique vibrational frequency – the perfect Focus. Metal absorbs the most energy at its resonance frequency (uncoincidentally IMO).

Here’s Brandon’s literal analogy: “Digestion is to Food” as “Burning is to Metal.” “Burning” food or metal lends the activation energy for a process that returns even more energy to the system. Just as digestion adds energy to us, “burning metal” adds Preservation’s power to the Allomancer.

Cal, our analytical differences often come down to this: I’m more willing than you to take Brandon at his literal word. Whether it’s “resonance” or “unified cosmere rules” or the mists fueling Allomancy “like a metal” or “pathways to power” or “primal force,” I accept and try to reconcile Brandon’s statements and the concepts that underlie them. When in doubt, I think it’s the side to err on.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Confused

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Confused said:

Cal, our analytical differences often come down to this: I’m more willing than you to take Brandon at his literal word. Whether it’s “resonance” or “unified cosmere rules” or the mists fueling Allomancy “like a metal” or “pathways to power” or “primal force,” I accept and try to reconcile Brandon’s statements and the concepts that underlie them. When in doubt, I think it’s the side to err on.

And I don't. Brandon has a team for a reason. He can't be an expert on everything. 

The vast majority of the time that he's at a signing he does not have his team with him. There's a reason we have conflicting WoBs, and ones where he states things that obviously conflict with the books. Brandon is amazing but he's not perfect. 

He makes mistakes in addition to not being perfect. 

Part of the issue, I agree, is that the rules have been refined as the story progresses. But taking the underlying mechanics to the literal definition of Brandon's word choices, when many things are done to serve the story first and foremost, is a good way to be disappointed in my opinion. 

[Energy Surge]

On 12/15/2018 at 9:27 PM, Confused said:

Draining Rosharan gemstones of color undercuts your pigment argument. Gemstone color stems from the gemstone’s impurities. That shows “draining color” is purely a phenomenon of light, not pigment.

Have we had a gemstone drained of color by Awakening? Are there any WoBs about using the color of a gemstone to Awaken? Just because there's another non-pigment way to produce color doesn't change the fact that all the Awakening we've seen on screen was draining pigment from things.

On 12/15/2018 at 9:27 PM, Confused said:

You think loss of skin pigment, not Investiture, puts Szeth and Lift at the edge of death? Nale warns Szeth to make sure he has plenty of Stormlight for Nightblood. When Nightblood runs out of Stormlight, he drains his holder’s Investiture. The Investiture drain destroys the pigment’s ability to absorb EMR, which is why Szeth and Lift are permanently gray-streaked.

I never said the pigment loss was a source of life threatening danger. I was merely pointing out another example of pigmentation loss around the use of Awakening. When non-sentient Awakened objects are created color is drained, when Lifeless are Awakened their color drains, and when Nightblood is drawn color is also drained. And interestingly enough, the flesh of Lifeless and Nightblood wielders are similar examples of losses of pigment. That's why I said, "dead flesh zombie color" to compare it to the affect Awakening has on Lifeless.

I believe that wielding Nightblood is an active form of Awakening. He is constantly trying to expend Investiture to destroy evil when he strikes things. He draws the Investiture to fuel this destruction from the user, but since this is Awakening, color is being drained in addition to the Investiture consumption. Obviously the Investiture draining component is what puts Vasher, Szeth and Lift at risk when wielding him.

I'm actually wondering if they're permanently gray-streaked. Vasher is never described as having streaks of gray on his arms, despite clearly suffering the same effect after wielding Nightblood. His Divine Breath may allow him to repair this damage if it is permanent. But I feel that in the amount of time that it takes natural skin cell replacement to occur, Szeth and Lift's bodies will replace the flesh that has lost it's pigment. However, if my theory is incorrect and the pigment loss is more permanent, they can probably use the healing powers of their Investiture.

On 12/15/2018 at 9:27 PM, Confused said:

Metals don’t fuel Allomancy. An Allomancer’s internal body function (“burning”) provides the energy to cause metals to vibrate. This “resonance” summons Preservation’s Spiritual Realm power, which Invests the Allomancer. Marasi describes metal as Preservation’s “pathway to power,” and I believe EMR is Endowment’s pathway to her power.

Every magic needs some energy to start going. Even “end-neutral” Feruchemy gets energy from a “facilitating” Spiritual Realm power.

I know the metals don't fuel Allomancy. I know that energy comes from Preservation. Unfortunately the definition of fuel is somewhat loose, and I'll use it when I mean to describe a reactant of a process. I was merely comparing something that is used up in the course of Allomancy to something that is used up in the course of Awakening. Even if they aren't the primary source of energy in either reaction, the fact that they're both required and subsequently consumed in the reaction makes one want to call them a fuel.

I think a lot of the magic systems get their kick start from the spiritual realm. Especially the genetically based ones that require you to be born with a connection to allow access to that jump starting process. Feruchemists have an inherited connection to Preservation and Ruin that allows them to access that Spirtual Realm power and begin the tapping or storing process. After it starts, the flow is completely between the Feruchemist and her metal mind. Likewise, I think a connection to Preservation allows for Scadrians to access Preservation and begin the metal flaring process.

However, Awakening works for anyone as soon as they have Breaths. Even if they aren't native to Nalthis. Awakening is Endowment's magic system, where do these foreigners get connection to Endowment's Investiture that allows them to perform an Awakenning command? The only commonality is the Breaths. Those Breaths are of Endowment. The Breaths themselves are the pathway to her power.

On 12/17/2018 at 3:15 PM, Confused said:

Nightblood and Pigment Loss

The Nightblood comment was for Energy Surge, who apparently believes Szeth and Lift nearly died from pigment loss.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Energy Surge