The Great Betrayal in the next book

[Diomedes]

In this theory I predict that the arc of the next installment of SA will resemble the arc of the Way of Kings: Dalinar trusts people he should not have have trusted and makes blatant political mistakes he should not have made. This will result in him and House Kholin getting betrayed in the last act, just like in Way of Kings. This time the fate of Roshar will be at stake.  

A lot of people are upset with the Kholins. The Vorin church despises Dalinar and Queen Jasnah for being heretics. They have every reason for betraying him. The Kholins have secured the loyalty of only a few Houses: Aladar, Roion and Sebarial who fought with them at the end of WoR. But they are weakened by those fights as is House Kholin. The other princedoms are at full strength.

We do not hear much about these guys in OB, because Dalinar shut them out of power. It used to be that all Highprinces discussed matters. In OB it is Dalinar who gives orders and they are supposed to follow them. We hear Dalinar keeps them in line by controlling the resources of Urithiru.

I am certain they do not like to be shut out from power and being treated like “servants”.

They will look for alternatives and find Ialai Sadeas and subsequently Odium. They will hail her as the new Queen and join Team Odium. Don`t forget the Ardents who will influence people to betray Dalinar. I argued here that a majority of Ardents constitute a cult of Odium already because they do not care about Honor: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/81893-a-cult-of-odium/. Most of Alethi high society does not care about Honor, which is the thing that got me thinking in this direction. They care about victory, the game, the thrill of battle. These values are closely tied to Odium. They value the destination not the journey. 

Taravangian should also play an important role. He is bound to Odium. He is in a perfect position to betray Dalinar in a key moment.  

I imagine a big battle at the end of the next book. Dalinar will be forced to rely on the soldiers of these guys. They will betray Dalinar by joining the other side and leave the fate of Roshar in the hands of Odium.

 

But there is a catch! I imagine some Parshendi to play the part of Bridge Four in WoK and save Team Honor from total destruction. Venli might play the part of Kaladin persuading them to help Team Honor.                   

Edited December 8, 2018 by Diomedes

[Steel Inquisitive]

I could see this happening.... But would rather that Brandon used a new plotline instead of recycling WoK.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Steel Inqusitive

[Kon-Tiki]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

Dalinar trusts people he should not have have trusted and makes blatant political mistakes he should not have made.

We've already seen Dalinar grow out of this. Dalinar's arc in WoR is all about him really nailing down who he can trust. He's inclined to trust Amaram, but he hears something really bad about him from Kaladin and, while it doesn't square with his image of the man, he goes to extraordinary lengths to find out the truth of the thing.

 

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

They will look for alternatives and find Ialai Sadeas and subsequently Odium. They will hail her as the new Queen and join Team Odium.

If its Ialai, is it really betrayal? And really, why Ialai? Brandon's spent a lot of time building Taravangian as a kind of foil to Dalinar, but I don't see Taravangian going Full Odium (never go Full Odium), since that kind of defeats the point of the Diagram. Ialai's been steadily growing less and less relevant since Sadeas died.

I think you're thinking in a lot of the right directions, Brandon's blurring the lines a lot between Humans=Honor=Good and Parshendi=Voidbringers=Evil cause frankly if it was just that it wouldn't be as interesting as its becoming. Humanity's perception of Honor has certainly changed since the days of the old KRs. This is reflected, in part, by the fact that the Honorspren have become more warlike recently (its why the other spren hate them). The Alethi have an entire system of dueling and wars dedicated to preserving their own (admittedly warped) sense of honor. And it isn't the Alethi who worship the Passions. By many other cultures they're seen as uptight and prudish. Writing off the Alethi and Vorinism as being inherently pro-Odium seems simplistic to me. 

The KRs and their oaths are fairly individualized and reliant on the perception of the individual who makes them. Teft's and Kaladin's 3rd Ideals are substantively different, despite being in the same order. Szeth is able to almost completely break with the Skybreakers in the way that he swore his 3rd Ideal. And I think that's the broad scheme of things too. I don't know that Voirinism is monolithic enough to just fall Odium or fall Honor. I think we'll see a divide within Vorinism. And within what remains of the Alethi (and probably within each Alethi kingdom, to some extent). And within the Parshendi. And within pretty much every nation and society on Roshar. We've done the "our allies turn against us on the field of battle" twice now, and it seems to me that we're looking more into the soul of the individual. Betrayals in the future will probably come more from trusted advisors and assassins and the like.

[Calderis]

34 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I could see this happening.... But would rather that Brandon used a new plotline instead recycling WoK.

Agreed. I have more faith in Brandon than to think he'll rehash his own plot lines. 

[+Ark1002]

I like the idea, but I'm also of the opinion that new stuff has to happen.

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Kon-Tiki said:

We've already seen Dalinar grow out of this. Dalinar's arc in WoR is all about him really nailing down who he can trust. He's inclined to trust Amaram, but he hears something really bad about him from Kaladin and, while it doesn't square with his image of the man, he goes to extraordinary lengths to find out the truth of the thing

No we havn`t. We see him doing lots of stupid stuff in OB: He antagonizes the ardents without a clear (political) reason. He pushes Amaram and Sadeas soldiers to Odium by thinking they will just follow his orders. 

1 hour ago, Kon-Tiki said:

If its Ialai, is it really betrayal? And really, why Ialai?

The Princes would betray the Kholins by defecting to Ialai. Why Ialai? Because she is a capable sceamer and the only major survivor of House Sadeas. Why not Taravangian? He is king of Jah Keved already. Yet, he is of course a possible contender for the throne.  

"but I don't see Taravangian going Full Odium (never go Full Odium)"

He is already full Odium because he is bound by oath to him. At least that is how I understood that scene near the end of OB.

1 hour ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I could see this happening.... But would rather that Brandon used a new plotline instead recycling WoK.

Think of it as a variation on the same theme. There would be major differences. the role of Odium , the Fused, the masses of Parshmen, the involvement of Jasnah. It would rhyme rather than repeat. Symmetries are a big thing in SA. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Diomedes

[Jace21]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

No we havn`t. We see him doing lots of stupid stuff in OB: He antagonizes the ardents without a clear (political) reason. He pushes Amaram and Sadeas soldiers to Odium by thinking they will just follow his orders.

A little harsh much?

Dalinar antagonises the Ardents by claiming Honor is dead and refounding the Radiants. This is absolutely necessary if he is to save Roshar. Sure, marrying Navani didn't help but the reason the Ardents hate him is both very clear and very necessary.

As for Amaram and the Sadeas troop, he didn't push them to Odium. He gave troops that were untrustworthy and poorly behaved some hard labor to do until he could trust them again, a perfectly reasonable and common cause of action. The fact they then were possessed by Voidspren (a feat previously thought to be impossible and so impossible to anticipate) was due to Sadeas and Amaram being traitorous lumps of crem (and Adolin didn't help), not Dalinar.

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

He is already full Odium because he is bound by oath to him. At least that is how I understood that scene near the end of OB.

This is something I am interested in seeing play out. I think that neither party is actually boumd by that Oath. At best Taravangian and Odium have to agree with their own interpretation of the oath, I have no doubt eventually they will oppose one another for that exact reason.

[Calderis]

As the Heralds show, a human cannot be bound by an oath in the same manner as a Shard. 

I fully believe that Odium is bound to his word, just as he is bound to the trial of champions that forced him to make his pact with Taravangian. 

T is in no way bound similarly. That's the whole point of the Diagram in my opinion. 

[Kon-Tiki]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

No we havn`t. We see him doing lots of stupid stuff in OB: He antagonizes the ardents without a clear (political) reason. He pushes Amaram and Sadeas soldiers to Odium by thinking they will just follow his orders. 

Re: the Ardents, he antagonized them simply by publishing the contents of his visions (during which Tanavast says "I'm the Almighty and I'm dead"), which is without question a necessary step to 1) winning the trust of non-Vorin nations like Azir and 2) getting correct information out to anyone who can help defeat Odium. I don't call that antagonism needless. Re: Sadeas' army and Amaram, @Ookla the Mind Sculptor covered that pretty well. In neither case is Dalinar handing out trust to people he has not vetted, which was your initial point anyway.

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

The Princes would betray the Kholins by defecting to Ialai. Why Ialai? Because she is a capable sceamer and the only major survivor of House Sadeas. Why not Taravangian? He is king of Jah Keved already. Yet, he is of course a possible contender for the throne.  

 

The Sadeas army was destroyed in detail at Theylan Field. Sadeas had two close allies before, Ruthar and Aladar, and Aladar is on Team Dalinar now. What exactly would the other highprinces be rallying behind? Ialai's name?

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

He is already full Odium because he is bound by oath to him. At least that is how I understood that scene near the end of OB.

Is he? He basically asked to stay out of the way and to let Odium do his thing if Odium would spare Kharbranth. That hardly seems Full Odium the way Amaram went before the end.

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

Think of it as a variation on the same theme. There would be major differences. the role of Odium , the Fused, the masses of Parshmen, the involvement of Jasnah. It would rhyme rather than repeat. Symmetries are a big thing in SA. 

This is also an era of New Things. The old rules are being broken all the time. HxC spren are bonding with Parshmen and voidspren are bonding with humanity. Heralds and Unmade are switching sides. Brandon's setting expectations with the deliberate intent to shatter them. Who knows what can happen?

Edited December 9, 2018 by Kon-Tiki
Typo

[Diomedes]

43 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Dalinar antagonises the Ardents by claiming Honor is dead and refounding the Radiants. This is absolutely necessary if he is to save Roshar. Sure, marrying Navani didn't help but the reason the Ardents hate him is both very clear and very necessary.

As for Amaram and the Sadeas troop, he didn't push them to Odium. He gave troops that were untrustworthy and poorly behaved some hard labor to do until he could trust them again, a perfectly reasonable and common cause of action. The fact they then were possessed by Voidspren (a feat previously thought to be impossible and so impossible to anticipate) was due to Sadeas and Amaram being traitorous lumps of crem (and Adolin didn't help), not Dalinar.

Is it necessary to claim the Almighty is dead to refound the KR? I do not think so. 

As for Dalinar`s political skills, we had a thread here, that devolved into discussions on the Ardents, 

@Calderis "As the Heralds show, a human cannot be bound by an oath in the same manner as a Shard. 

I fully believe that Odium is bound to his word, just as he is bound to the trial of champions that forced him to make his pact with Taravangian. 

T is in no way bound similarly. That's the whole point of the Diagram in my opinion." 

He might not be bound as Odium is, but he is bound to a certain degree. "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side? I would like to see your explantion. I guess you wrote a theory somewhere. Could you send me a link? The Heralds are immortal and have a lot of Investment of Honor. They are hardly a good comparison to the deal with Odium. Besides a good chunk of their souls were destroyed by breaking the pact.  

Edited December 9, 2018 by Diomedes

[Jace21]

16 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Is it necessary to claim the almighty is dead to refound the KR? I do not think so. 

Yes, as the Recreance, Heralds, Almighty and Desolations are inextricably linked. They need to accept and understand the past in order to face the future.

Ardents and Vorin mythology says that the Desolation ended, the Heralds left for the Tranquiline Halls amd that the Almighty, with his servants, triumphed over the Void. 

If Roshar is to be saved, everyone needs to understand that is a lie. A big part of tbat involves knowong that the biggest guy on your team is dead.

Ardents preaching that "The Almighty amd his Heralds will deliver us" will not help and needed to be nipped in the bud.

Dalinar's skills as a politician are irrelevant, I agree he is hardly the best when it come to diplomacy. But publishing his visions and spreading the idea the truth that the Almighty isn't able to save them was still the right move.

23 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As the Heralds show, a human cannot be bound by an oath in the same manner as a Shard. 

I fully believe that Odium is bound to his word, just as he is bound to the trial of champions that forced him to make his pact with Taravangian. 

T is in no way bound similarly. That's the whole point of the Diagram in my opinion. 

I agree with you Cal, I was a littlr unclear. I think Taravangian is bound only by his own deperation and sense of honor, so once he knows things will end badly anyway he can do as he wishes.

I think Odium should have been bound by his word, but I am not sure his conversation with T ticks all the boxes for a binding Oath. As I have mentioned previously, I think he has regretted binding himself before and wishes to avoid it. At most he only has to stick to his own interpretation of some vague, detail-free promises, leaving him plenty of wiggle room.

[Diomedes]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Yes, as the Recreance, Heralds, Almighty and Desolations are inextricably linked. They need to accept and understand the past in order to face the future.

I disagree. 

He needs to understand the past in order to face the future. Could he not tell a single lie by saying he belives the Almighty is there somewhere beyond the stars? That he believes Honor transitioned to a different mode of existance? That this was what Honor meant by "dying". This is the only thing Kadash asks of him: Not to deny the existance of the Almighty. But that would be to much for Dalinar Kholin. 

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Ardents preaching that "The Almighty amd his Heralds will deliver us" will not help and needed to be nipped in the bud.

Them being nipped in the bud is pushing them towards Odium. As is said in the thread:  "He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies."

Them being on Odium`s side is not helping anyone. 

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Dalinar's skills as a politician are irrelevant, I agree he is hardly the best when it come to diplomacy. But publishing his visions and spreading the idea the truth that the Almighty isn't able to save them was still the right move.

Of course his skills as a politicians are relevant! Any politician with an inch of skill would not claim to be an outright Heretic. Publishing the visions is OK, saying  everything in there is true is also OK. Supporting an interpretation that says the Almighty does not exist anymore is just foolhardy.  

46 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Is he? He basically asked to stay out of the way and to let Odium do his thing if Odium would spare Kharbranth. That hardly seems Full Odium the way Amaram went before the end

He did not ask to "stay out of the way", he asked for the Diagram to be his servant: "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side?

[Turtle373]

18 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

 

He did not ask to "stay out of the way", he asked for the Diagram to be his servant: "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side?

 

He isn't 100% on Odiums side because his top priority is trying to save as much as he can from Odium, and so he strikes the deal, but I think if T sees that Odium can lose and that his help could turn the tide I think he'll betray Odium

[Calderis]

The Diagram has steered events far to well and far to precisely to be at all what it appears. It's "misses" or "divergences" would make sense if it was what Taravangian thinks that it is, but in that case, it being detailed enough to include the events of Thaylen field in the words it gave him to speak to Odium makes no sense whatsoever. 

This has nothing to do with what Taravangian thinks he has sworn, or what he believes his goals are. He believes exactly what he's said, and that is by design because to do things differently would be to show the plan to Odium who can see the Diagram in its entirety. 

The Diagram is a breadcrumb trail to follow that gives false motives. It's doing exactly what T asked Cultivation/the Nightwatcher for. It's granting him the capacity to save the world. He may fully believe that he is serving Odium, but this will end badly for his "Master."

[Diomedes]

27 minutes ago, Turtle373 said:

He isn't 100% on Odiums side because his top priority is trying to save as much as he can from Odium, and so he strikes the deal, but I think if T sees that Odium can lose and that his help could turn the tide I think he'll betray Odium

That would mean breaking the pact. He would not do that until he is absolutly certain Odium will be defeated, if he joins Team Honor. I do not see any situation like that arise in the next book or maybe ever. For all practical intents and purposes he is fully on Odium`s side for now and will abide his command.  

Quote

The Diagram is a breadcrumb trail to follow that gives false motives. It's doing exactly what T asked Cultivation/the Nightwatcher for. It's granting him the capacity to save the world. He may fully believe that he is serving Odium, but this will end badly for his "Master."

@CalderisThis is probably true except for the last crucial part: We do not know who will win in the end. T. being the Diagram could have seen that this scenario is the best one he could hope for so he should persue it. That does not mean Odium losing, only him winning in the best way that the Diagram could see.   

Regardless he has sworn to serve Odium for now, which means he will betray Dalinar.   

Edited December 9, 2018 by Diomedes

[Turtle373]

2 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

That would mean breaking the pact. He would not do that until he is absolutly certain Odium will be defeated, if he joins Team Honor. I do not see any situation like that arise in the next book or maybe ever. For all practical intents and purposes he is fully on Odium`s side for now and will abide his command.  

he totally would, either he saves one City-state from Odium, or all of Roshar, he's going to pick the latter even if it isn't 100% guaranteed 

[Diomedes]

1 minute ago, Turtle373 said:

he totally would, either he saves one City-state from Odium, or all of Roshar, he's going to pick the latter even if it isn't 100% guaranteed

I do not even see a 10% chance arising in the next book. He made this deal because he knows how desperate their situation is. 

[Turtle373]

1 minute ago, Diomedes said:

I do not even see a 10% chance arising in the next book. He made this deal because he knows how desperate their situation is. 

yeah so if that situation changes he'll switch 

[Calderis]

I very much disagree. While he will follow commands, I believe this will have been accounted for. 

The diagram laid the groundwork for the coalition through Szeth's rampage through world leaders. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead to the circumstances which facilitated the Unity moment. And Dalinar's rejection of Odium in that moment was incorporated into the words that Taravangian spoke to Odium. 

Taravangian will continue to follow the Diagram, and in so doing, he will continue to indirectly aid the Radiants. 

[Jace21]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

I disagree. 

He needs to understand the past in order to face the future. Could he not tell a single lie by saying he belives the Almighty is there somewhere beyond the stars? That he believes Honor transitioned to a different mode of existance? That this was what Honor meant by "dying". This is the only thing Kadash asks of him: Not to deny the existance of the Almighty. But that would be to much for Dalinar Kholin. 

Except Dalinar never did deny the existence of the Almighty, he simply states that the Almighty (Honor), while powerful, does not match the attributes of a "God". So they were asking him to accept the Almighty as God, all-powerful, all-knowing etc, which yes, is a problem, as it implies someone is able to come and "save" them.

Because if Dalinar doesn't share the fullness of his visions and pretends the almighty is alive/changed then what are the Ardents going to say? "Oh look, a desolation is here. I know, let's do the same as we used to do, which is wait for the Almighty to send his Heralds to helps us so we can all fight against the void", which will never happen, and waiting for it to happen would doom humanity.

As it is while there is a fury aimed at Dalinar as a heretic and blashpemer, his attempts to restart the Knights Radiant and unify the varying kingdoms of Roshar has been successful, because the Ardents are opposing him and not his cause.

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

Them being nipped in the bud is pushing them towards Odium. As is said in the thread:  "He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies."

Again, that isn't what he is saying. He is telling them that the Almighty is not the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being they thought him to be and they can't rely on him to save them because he died. He isn't saying not to revere him, not to work toward's callings and glories, to stop helping people or to find better things to do with their lives. He is simply informing them of a fact pertinent to the crisis they are in. If you think that telling someone the truth and hoping they will understand, investigate and be the kind, understanding, impartial people they claim to be is the same as forcing them to become his enemies and "push them towards Odium" (which implies the strange idea that there are only 2 sides, Dalinar and Odium) then we just flat out disagree.

While knowledge of human nature makes anger a likely response, it is not unreasonable for Dalinar to hope that the fact he was right about other things will give him enough good standing to get some patience and time to investigate and explain. They never do, but that makes it a miscalculation, nothing more.

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Of course his skills as a politicians are relevant! Any politician with an inch of skill would not claim to be an outright Heretic. Publishing the visions is OK, saying  everything in there is true is also OK. Supporting an interpretation that says the Almighty does not exist anymore is just foolhardy.  

How can he publish and support the visions without claiming the Almighty is dead? It is the only reasonable explanation when taken in context of the Almighty saying he can do no more and that Odium has killed him?

A politician of any skill would know to focus on your main objectives and not hide things that will come out later (which did indeed become a problem). So clearly stating his view rather than let it be discovered later makes sense. It also resulted in a stronger alliance, one of his main aims. They know he doesn't believe the Almighty is God, so no part of the coalition rests on shared beliefs, if he hid it then the coalition could collapse when it eventually came out.

Like I already said, whether intentional or not, by focussing the Ardents on Dalinar as an individual he paved the way to refound the Knights Radiant and form an alliance of the Vorin nations with very little opposition by the church, accomplishing his two main aims. Score one for politician Dalinar.

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

He did not ask to "stay out of the way", he asked for the Diagram to be his servant: "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side?

Because Taravangian's obedience is conditional,"in exchange for the preservation of my people", voluntary, he can change his mind at any point, and based on something he himself doesn't understand, the Diagram.

That gives us many ways he could stop serving Odium:

1. Somehow his people are endangered or something happens to them that he is not happy with. Odium could see himself as keeping the Oath to "preserve them" in a way T doesn't approve of, causing him to break with Odium.

2. T, probably on a compassionate day, is supposed to do something for Odium that he can't bring himself to do, breaking the deal. Also possible, Smart T realises at some point in the future that the chances of the good guys winning has increased to the points that the increased risk is worth the possible gain, saving more people.

3. "The Diagram will sever you" is exactly the plan of Cultivation to begin with and will be Odiums downfall, meaining that Mr T keeps his part of the deal, but it winds up being bad for Odium anyway.

This may take a while to play out, but it seems unlikely that Brandon will have Mr T and the diagram play the faithful servants and just become boring henchmen. Either the Diagram isn't what it seems or Mr T changes his mind, I favor the former.

[Diomedes]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Except Dalinar never did deny the existence of the Almighty, he simply states that the Almighty (Honor), while powerful, does not match the attributes of a "God". So they were asking him to accept the Almighty as God, all-powerful, all-knowing etc, which yes, is a problem, as it implies someone is able to come and "save" them.

No they were not asking him to accept the Almighty as all-powerful etc., they are not expecting for somebody to save them. I`d like you to read chapter 16 of OB from Kadash`s perspective. He is in Dalinar`s eyes 

Quote

gentle understanding model of everything good about the Vorin church. (p.178),

and Dalinar manages to horrify even him. Kadash does not ask him to accept all of Vorin teachings or that the Almighty is going to come and save everybody. The book never says that the ardents believe that! Kadash merely asks 

Quote

"Recant your insistence that the Almighty is dead." p.178

   The only thing Dalinar needs to do is saying that he does not believe in the doctrin of omnipotence he does not believe that the Almighty is going to save everyone, but he does believe in his existance. This is btw. true, since shards like spren technically never die, they just transition between different planes of existance. 

9 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

Because if Dalinar doesn't share the fullness of his visions and pretends the almighty is alive/changed then what are the Ardents going to say? "Oh look, a desolation is here. I know, let's do the same as we used to do, which is wait for the Almighty to send his Heralds to helps us so we can all fight against the void", which will never happen, and waiting for it to happen would doom humanity.

As it is while there is a fury aimed at Dalinar as a heretic and blashpemer, his attempts to restart the Knights Radiant and unify the varying kingdoms of Roshar has been successful, because the Ardents are opposing him and not his cause

The book never states that the ardents would be that foolhardy. They would say: Oh look a desolation is here. Apperantly the Almighty does not deem us worthy of defending. Let us rally around the Knights Radiant, who can. Maybe we will be worthy again in the future. Dalinar`s attempts have been barely sucessfull, as I tried to show in this thread partly because the ardents are opposing him and his cause. The two are linked. We do not yet know of their machinations against his cause, but I have no doubts that they are there. Maybe they played a crucial role in convincing Amaram to betray Dalinar. This happens off screen, but it would be very likely that the religious zealot Amaram, who wants to restore the power of the Vorin church to its full glory, would listen to the ardents. 

 

9 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

How can he publish and support the visions without claiming the Almighty is dead? It is the only reasonable explanation when taken in context of the Almighty saying he can do no more and that Odium has killed him?

A politician of any skill would know to focus on your main objectives and not hide things that will come out later (which did indeed become a problem). So clearly stating his view rather than let it be discovered later makes sense. It also resulted in a stronger alliance, one of his main aims. They know he doesn't believe the Almighty is God, so no part of the coalition rests on shared beliefs, if he hid it then the coalition could collapse when it eventually came out.

Like I already said, whether intentional or not, by focussing the Ardents on Dalinar as an individual he paved the way to refound the Knights Radiant and form an alliance of the Vorin nations with very little opposition by the church, accomplishing his two main aims. Score one for politician Dalinar.

Well, by claiming he merely changed, which is somewhat true. 

A skilled politician makes sure he persuades people to his side, not give them good reasons to become his bitter enemies. 

How would such a thing come out? I guess that many Highprinces do not actually believe in the Almighty. They just claim they are that everybody is happy. This is the solemn arrangment of Alethi high society. You give the ardents what they want and they let you do whatever you want. Dalinar broke that arrangement, because he can`t bring himself to tell a single lie. 

10 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

This may take a while to play out, but it seems unlikely that Brandon will have Mr T and the diagram play the faithful servants and just become boring henchmen. Either the Diagram isn't what it seems or Mr T changes his mind, I favor the former.

This hinges on the assumption that Odium`s chances of winning decreace drastically in the next book. I don`t see that happening. He might change sides in later books. In the next book he is Odium`s servant. This is all that matters for my prediction.         

[Calderis]

I'm not able to agree with any argument that says that Dalinar having to lie is right. 

It may have been effective, but not right. 

[Turtle373]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not able to agree with any argument that says that Dalinar having to lie is right. 

It may have been effective, but not right. 

I agree with Calderis, it isn't part of Dalinar's nature to be one of the lying scheming politician, he is a blunt honest man who says what he believes, to do otherwise is to go against who he is as a person, so it isn't Dalinar's skill as a politician but his honest nature that drove the ardents away

[Diomedes]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not able to agree with any argument that says that Dalinar having to lie is right. 

Why? Is lying always a bad thing? 

I think the world is more complicated than that. Sometimes compromises have to be made.

 Are parents immoral for telling their children that Santa

Spoiler

 is real? 

At the end of WoK Dalinar resolves to treat the Alethi like children, and children don`t always deserve the full brutal truth. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Why? Is lying always a bad thing? 

Predominantly, yes. Obviously it's more nuanced than black and white, but I don't think this is one of those situations. 

3 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Are parents immoral for telling their children that Santa

  Reveal hidden contents

There is a vast difference between an imaginary figure who you are expected to outgrow and the figure worshipped as God who directly told you he was killed. 

5 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

At the end of WoK Dalinar resolves to treat the Alethi like children, and children don`t always deserve the full brutal truth. 

In matters of obedience. They're are being treated as children, because they behave like children. 

You can't expect those children to believe you if you intentionally mislead them though. 

Additionally, the visions were published originally without his knowledge. To deny part of them would be to invalidate all of them. Own it, and stand by it, or constantly have people question your sanity.

Dalinar did the right thing. The Vorin church is politically powerful, and inevitably going to be a problem. I don't see how that could have been avoided, only delayed, and that delaying action would have undermined Dalinar in the long run.