Power Level Reform

[I think I am here.]

With the Spiking, something similar happened with Alask, because he was also a Hemalurgic experiment where he was basically a normal guy until they kidnapped and Spiked him. My reason for why he can’t get it removed is pretty much because that would Shed blood, so even if you got the spikes out, you’d then have to deal with an enraged Shade which would probably kill him along anyone else present. So he’s pretty scared of that, which is why he feels he can’t remove it.

[MacThorstenson]

I think that @Ookla the Foxed's suggestions for rules is a good base guide for designing character. 

I personally agree with all of them, but what do other people think? I know that some people have raised objections about the law of power increase, namely that it feels too restrictive. I would suggest that maybe we have different bars for community approval, as in getting a character that may break one of those rules has a different number of people needed to approve it compared to getting a shardblade.

I do agree with what others have said about the law of power plausibility and spiking.

However, I also see the side that a being of Honor/Cultivation would have an issue with someone who unrepentantly keeps their spike in. Either because it interferes with the oath, or simply because of the interference because of Ruins investiture. Not many spren would like bonding with someone who is connected to Ruin. Interference with another shard is an issue, but also the fact that Hemalurgy makes the recipient a little insane.

[+Sorana]

I like the suggestions, as they offer a good guideline, but I can understand why some feel too restricted by them.

I think, if we as a comunity approve of a character, maybe with the mods (and Archer?) to have the final say, or a poll if it seems like we have different opinions around, we should be able to balance it.

In the end, I feel like we have different images in our heads when we talk about powerlevels, so maybe we could pick a few existing characters as examples, so that everybody has something for orientation.

[Gancho Libre]

7 hours ago, Sorana said:

In the end, I feel like we have different images in our heads when we talk about powerlevels, so maybe we could pick a few existing characters as examples, so that everybody has something for orientation.

2

That's a good idea. Perhaps one of my own characters, Fred, could be an example of the low end of the spectrum?

He's pretty skilled in Pewter burning, and a relatively good fighter, but he was a major weakness (namely, the loss of both arms).

[Vargo Seldon]

On 12/8/2018 at 8:54 PM, Silva said:

You can't force a person to create a character with morals. For some people that's rather difficult and to restrict their abilities seems unfair. But if we say that they're simply too powerful for Era 3, then that solves the issue entirely.

Sorry for dredging up the old channeler argument, but I believe that channelers to have awesome potential.  They just need to reign in their powers a bit.  

[Archer]

I'm pretty sure everything that can be said about channelers has already been discussed. While I don't like to stifle debate, if it's just going to be repetitive there's better uses of our time. Unless new arguments or information is available, it would be better to just put the question to vote or some other form of final decision. 

16 hours ago, Sorana said:

I like the suggestions, as they offer a good guideline, but I can understand why some feel too restricted by them.

I think, if we as a comunity approve of a character, maybe with the mods (and Archer?) to have the final say, or a poll if it seems like we have different opinions around, we should be able to balance it.

In the end, I feel like we have different images in our heads when we talk about powerlevels, so maybe we could pick a few existing characters as examples, so that everybody has something for orientation.

We've established that how powerful a character is depends on how they're RPed. However, limiting what they've got to work with seems like a good way to reduce how powerful someone can be. The best proposal so far for creating a baseline has been the points system. The other option would be what we have now, where approvals are based on a general sense of how powerful they would be compared to others. But it's hard, for example, to determine how someone with no arms stacks up against someone with a different weakness. We could make a baseline test (could this person beat a lion in hand-to-hand combat?) but magic systems have different strengths and weaknesses.

I'm a fan of considering how prevalent something is in cannon/ how plausible it is when choosing powers, because in general, the rarer it is, the more powerful it is. A baseline of 'as likely as [eg. a steel misting]' could work. I can't think of a planet offhand where the average citizen is extraordinarily powered. Having powers is often the exception, not the rule. 

To make this easier, I recommend we establish what should be considered too powerful in each magic system.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm cool with the points system, if anybody's wondering. 

[Darth Woodrack]

It just seems to restrictive and seems to slide it more towards DnD and away from freeform fun,

[Sherlock Holmes]

DnD is awesome, so I don't see the problem.

[+Ark1002]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Meme-Thief said:

DnD is awesome, so I don't see the problem.

Part of the point of FFRP is to avoid things like that.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Argh. I still feel that a points system would keep people from making too-powerful characters.

[+Ark1002]

Not really. It would make it harder to get rid of complicated OP characters.

[Sherlock Holmes]

My ideas and categorization for a points system is as below, inspired by @Ookla the Ring. (As above, so below! -Kvothe)

Let's assume a fifty-point starting area.

Quote

Sel

Elantrian: Can access the Dor at all times on Sel and the Alleyplanet. -35 points for experienced, 5 less for inexperienced

Full Dahkor monk: Can access the Dor at all times on Sel and the Alleyplanet. -30 points for experienced, 5 less for inexperienced

ChayShan: Can access the Dor at all times on Sel and the Alleyplanet. -15 points for experienced, 5 less for inexperienced

Forger: Can make and use Soulstamps. -25 points for experienced, 5 less for inexperienced

Bloodsealer: Can make and use Soulstamps. -25 points for inexperienced, 5 less for inexperienced

Quote

Scadrial

Misting: Can Burn one Allomantic metal. -5 points

Mistborn: Can Burn all Allomantic metals. -40 points

Ferring: Can store one Attribute in the correlating Feruchemical metal. -5 points

Full Feruchemist: Can store all Attributes in the correlating Feruchemical metals. -35 points

Twinborn: Can Burn one Allomantic metal and store a different Attribute in a different Feruchemical metal. -15 points

Compounder: Can Burn one Allomantic metal and store the correlating Attribute in the same Feruchemical metal. -25 points

Fullborn: Can Burn all Allomantic metals and store all Attributes in the correlating Feruchemical metals. -150 points

Quote

Nalthis

Awakening: Can Awaken nonliving objects with BioChromatic Breath. -10, add 5 for every Heightening

Quote

Roshar

Knight Radiant: Can breath in Stormlight to access the Surges. Is bound by Oaths. -15, add 5 for every Oath

Singer: Can change Forms in an Invested storm. -10

Voidbinder: Can breath in Voidlight to access the Surges. -25 points

Nightwatcher boon and bane: Has asked the Nightwatcher for a boon and bane and been given them. -10, depending on the consequences

Quote

Taldain

Sand Mastery: Can command Invested sand. -10 for experienced, 5 less for inexperienced

Quote

First of the Sun

Aviar: Can use a various ability. -5 points

Quote

Whatever Planet Aether of Night is From

Amberite Bond: Can grow Amberite. -20 points, add 10 for powerful Bond

Verdant Bond: Can grow Verdant vines. -15 points, add 10 for powerful Bond

Bestarin Bond: Can regrow body parts as animal features. -10 points

Ferrous Bond: Can become a Corpate. -0 points (seriously, this Bond is worthless)

Quote

Detritus

DDF Pilot: Can pilot a DDF fighter. -5 points, depending on abilities

I think that's all the important Shardworlds, including what I know of the non-cosmere books. The above recommendations are entirely my opinions, but I think they apply to some extent to our characters. I'm not going to get into non-Investiture-related abilities for now.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Ookla the Meme-Thief

[old man moomba]

I had one of those for WoT. Its unfinished, though.

[Darth Woodrack]

The problem with DnD is that you need one story teller modding everything. Nobody wants to do that, and you can't have any secrets. Someone would know.

Again, I don't like that system, because then good old Archer has to come up with how any points the weaknesses give you, and then work with the abilities. Also, If you don't know what your doing, are OP, but are non-combative, you can't make a character, because of a point buy system. ide not: 70 points for a fullborn dude? Seriously? should be 150.

[old man moomba]

I did 80 points for an above average channeler.

[Sherlock Holmes]

But a point system would regulate how much power people stuff into their characters. Tena has an astounding seventy-five points on her tab, while Archer's character Mace has an unbelievable one hundred eighty points. 

Weaknesses would have to be in place, of course. Mace hardly ever uses his powers for combat, and is a generally chill guy, while Tena uses the crap out of her powers.

[Furamirionind]

I like the concept of a points system, if for no other reason than being able to objectively OOC analyse how powerful your charecter is compared to others. (Especially useful for making new charecters, though not a hard limit of how many point to use)  However, I think that creating this is a big task as compounding Zinc, is significantly less dangerous than compounding Gold, so point values may need to be customized for each possibility. (Or someone could make some sort of algorithm, though I would need to brainstorm how that would work)

Edited December 13, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Darth Woodrack]

I just don't like it, and I'm sorry, but, nothing you could say can convince me. I just don't think it will work, and it is just a lot of wor, that I don't want to have to do when I'm kaing a character for a free form rpg that I do in my spare time.

1 minute ago, Furamirionind said:

Gold

Or chromium, or steel, or pewter.

[old man moomba]

Does Twinborn stack with compounder?

If so: 

Dwig has 40 points, plus whatever a Shardblade would be. Lets say 7. 

So, 47 points? Pushing the limit, but not over the starting 50.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm assuming that if you were a Compounder or Twinborn, then got spiked, the power you got spiked with would making you a Misting/Ferring of that power.

[Furamirionind]

It was a single example, I was not saying gold was the only one.

1 minute ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I just don't like it, and I'm sorry, but, nothing you could say can convince me. I just don't think it will work, and it is just a lot of wor, that I don't want to have to do when I'm kaing a character for a free form rpg that I do in my spare time.

I don't think there should be a limit, but I will volunteer to create a points system and post it so no one else has to do the work. (I may need to talk to others and brainstorm though)

Again, this should purely be an analysis tool so that we can objectively understand how powerful our charecters are.  I have seen several arguements over how "so and so is basically god-like and too strong" or something like that.  This would eliminate ALL of that.

[old man moomba]

No, what I was saying is that if you were a compounder, do you also have to subtract points for twinborn.

[Darth Woodrack]

No. The compounder would be an alternate option.

47 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Again, this should purely be an analysis tool so that we can objectively understand how powerful our characters are.  I have seen several arguments over how "so and so is basically god-like and too strong" or something like that.  This would eliminate ALL of that.

No it wouldn't. There would still be arguing, because people don't like how things are scored, and the think that their weaknesses make up for it. It will not remove the arguments, it will just make people go after the system, instead  of the actual reasons why. In my opinion this system will not remove arguments,  it will make them worse.

[Voidus]

50 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I just don't like it, and I'm sorry, but, nothing you could say can convince me. I just don't think it will work, and it is just a lot of wor, that I don't want to have to do when I'm kaing a character for a free form rpg that I do in my spare time.

Here's the thing, as soon as we agree to place an upper limit on PC power we are using this system. All coming up with these lists is doing is precisely quantifying it so anyone can know that their character is reasonable or not. If we didn't have these numbers the calculations would still be done, they'd just be vaguer, less precise and prone to difference of opinion.