Vyre, Neshua Kadal

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

Ok, so my theory is that Vyre will become a Radiant of the Order of Skybreakers. 

In terms of Evidence to back this up, we have the fact that Vyre is very focused on Vengeance, and for bringing Justice to Elhokar for past crimes.

We Have the fact that when Kaladin was going to kill Amaram, Syl told him that he wasn’t a Skybreaker so he shouldn’t, however Vyre DID decide to kill Elhokar.

We have the fact that both Vyre and Nale came to the decision that the parshmen are the rightful rulers of Roshar, so Nale is set up perfectly to mentor Vyre.

Also, we have information in the Epigraphs that the Skybreakers and the Windrunners are always at odds, so adding this extra layer to the Kaladin/Vyre confrontation will be quite interesting.

Finally, Vyre is being set up as the new Assasin in White, so if he also became a Skybreaker it would make sense.

So what do you guys think? Is Vyre some other Order of Radiant?

[Kramerfarve]

While this would be interesting to see, I would be far more interested to see Moash gain the void forms of the Windrunner order, but this is still a highly viable theory. It would be great seeing a Windrunner at full power going up against Vyre with both the Windrunner surges from the honor blade along with division from the Skybreakers.

[Jace21]

1 hour ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Ok, so my theory is that Vyre will become a Radiant of the Order of Skybreakers. 

In terms of Evidence to back this up, we have the fact that Vyre is very focused on Vengeance, and for bringing Justice to Elhokar for past crimes.

We Have the fact that when Kaladin was going to kill Amaram, Syl told him that he wasn’t a Skybreaker so he shouldn’t, however Vyre DID decide to kill Elhokar.

We have the fact that both Vyre and Nale came to the decision that the parshmen are the rightful rulers of Roshar, so Nale is set up perfectly to mentor Vyre.

Also, we have information in the Epigraphs that the Skybreakers and the Windrunners are always at odds, so adding this extra layer to the Kaladin/Vyre confrontation will be quite interesting.

Finally, Vyre is being set up as the new Assasin in White, so if he also became a Skybreaker it would make sense.

So what do you guys think? Is Vyre some other Order of Radiant?

I don't think Moash has it in him to obey the Law long enough to become the law.

We don't know how the singers take over will effect the way the Skybreakers follow their oaths, but technically Elhokar didn't break any laws at the time so there is no way to exact justice.

I'm not convinced he will ever become a Radiant. Possible Voidbinder with an Honorblade is my guess.

[Kon-Tiki]

I'm not sure vengeance is even really a Skybreaker virtue. We certainly don't see Nale acting in a vengeful manner. If we did we'd probably see him acting more directly against Odium than we obviously currently do. And as to Moash/Vyre's and Nale's beliefs that the land belongs to the parshmen, they came to that conclusion using nearly opposite logic. Moash/Vyre believes that humanity doesn't deserve to control Roshar, through his own totally arbitrary interpretation of who deserves what. Nale, on the other hand, believes that the parshmen, as the original occupants of Roshar, are the law of Roshar. (The irony of Nale's interpretation, obviously, is that Odium is the interloper god here. Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar first, so supporting the killer of Honor is hardly upholding the Law. But this is sort of off topic).

The thing is, all ten KR Orders were more or less pointed in the same direction in their era. But all ten Orders also represent wildly different things, and would largely have come to similar conclusions using very different logic. Windrunners, is being tied to Honorspren, are all about right and wrong. Skybreakers, being tied to Highspren, are all about the letter of the law. Moash/Vyre's problem is that he has a very twisted sense of right and wrong, not that he's some sort of embodiment of legal justice coming onto Elhokar. I don't think that's very Skybreaker-ey at all.

[Hbal]

@Kon-Tiki, Nale explains that Odium has won the war by the Right of conquest. Without Honor present, law of the land reverts to the Dawnsingers, there is a heirarchy at work here. This is why Nale sought to prevent the Desolation by killing Surgebinders but now He and Skybreakers have no choice as He sees it to follow the law of actual owners.

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

23 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

I'm not sure vengeance is even really a Skybreaker virtue. We certainly don't see Nale acting in a vengeful manner. If we did we'd probably see him acting more directly against Odium than we obviously currently do. And as to Moash/Vyre's and Nale's beliefs that the land belongs to the parshmen, they came to that conclusion using nearly opposite logic. Moash/Vyre believes that humanity doesn't deserve to control Roshar, through his own totally arbitrary interpretation of who deserves what. Nale, on the other hand, believes that the parshmen, as the original occupants of Roshar, are the law of Roshar. (The irony of Nale's interpretation, obviously, is that Odium is the interloper god here. Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar first, so supporting the killer of Honor is hardly upholding the Law. But this is sort of off topic).

The thing is, all ten KR Orders were more or less pointed in the same direction in their era. But all ten Orders also represent wildly different things, and would largely have come to similar conclusions using very different logic. Windrunners, is being tied to Honorspren, are all about right and wrong. Skybreakers, being tied to Highspren, are all about the letter of the law. Moash/Vyre's problem is that he has a very twisted sense of right and wrong, not that he's some sort of embodiment of legal justice coming onto Elhokar. I don't think that's very Skybreaker-ey at all.

I believe that what a person views as Justice can differ from person to person, Moash wants Justice on Elhokar for murdering his grandparents; yes what he believes is twisted, but I think that one  highspren “might” see what Vyre does in a different light than another highspren.

Multiple people can have different interpretations of the Law, and Sanderson likes to show different views on the same subject.

Quote

“And what else am I supposed to do?” Moash asked softly. By now, he’d pulled right up to Kaladin. “What kind of justice can a man like me get on a king, Kaladin? Tell me”

See, Moash does want justice in his own twisted way.

 

Quote

“And Amaram? Can I kill him?” “Is that Justice?” Syl asked. “One form”

“One form.” There are multiple kinds of justice, Kaladin chose his, and Moash chose his, I think Highspren might just have different ideas of justice.

 

22 hours ago, Hbal said:

@Kon-Tiki, Nale explains that Odium has won the war by the Right of conquest. Without Honor present, law of the land reverts to the Dawnsingers, there is a heirarchy at work here. This is why Nale sought to prevent the Desolation by killing Surgebinders but now He and Skybreakers have no choice as He sees it to follow the law of actual owners.

Isn’t it ironic that Nale doesn’t see that the humans won by “right of conquest”.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Lord Mistborn Skybreaker

[Kon-Tiki]

3 minutes ago, Hbal said:

@Kon-Tiki, Nale explains that Odium has won the war by the Right of conquest. Without Honor present, law of the land reverts to the Dawnsingers, there is a heirarchy at work here. This is why Nale sought to prevent the Desolation by killing Surgebinders but now He and Skybreakers have no choice as He sees it to follow the law of actual owners.

That's a good point, but Nale still wants to have it both ways. Odium won by right of conquest, but humanity should to obey the law of the Parshmen because they were here first? Humanity has been running the show for a long time. Not Odium (who's a prisoner anyway, though Nale might not know that), and certainly not the Parshmen.

[Hbal]

1 minute ago, Kon-Tiki said:

That's a good point, but Nale still wants to have it both ways. Odium won by right of conquest, but humanity should to obey the law of the Parshmen because they were here first? Humanity has been running the show for a long time. Not Odium (who's a prisoner anyway, though Nale might not know that), and certainly not the Parshmen.

As i mentioned there is a order to this thing as per Nale. Oathbringer Chapter 116. Alone answers this. Here's a summary of sorts, Simple man < Citylord < Highlord < Highprince < King < God. I hope that gives context with my earlier message.

[Jace21]

2 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Isn’t it ironic that Nale doesn’t see that the humans won by “right of conquest”.

I think he did. That was why he upheld human law for thousands of years even though he knew the Singers were the original inhabitants. The humans had won by right of conquest.

Only after Odium kills honor, the other Heralds are broken and the Fused return does he consider the land retaken "by right of conquest" and follow Singer law.

2 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

I believe that what a person views as Justice can differ from person to person, Moash wants Justice on Elhokar for murdering his grandparents; yes what he believes is twisted, but I think that one  highspren “might” see what Vyre does in a different light than another highspren.

Multiple people can have different interpretations of the Law, and Sanderson likes to show different views on the same subject.

See, Moash does want justice in his own twisted way.

 

“One form.” There are multiple kinds of justice, Kaladin chose his, and Moash chose his, I think Highspren might just have different ideas of justice.

Justice actually has nothing to do with it, at least until the 3rd or 4th ideals. It is a "Divine Attribute" of Nale and by extension his order but is only tangentially related to the Oaths. It seems to me like most people who can follow the oaths have those attributes, not that you need them to swear the oaths.

So while Moash may have his own valid view of justice, does he have the right attitude to swear the 2nd ideal and uphold the law above all else? I would say he definitely does not, so he could never become a Skybreaker.

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

20 hours ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

I think he did. That was why he upheld human law for thousands of years even though he knew the Singers were the original inhabitants. The humans had won by right of conquest.

Only after Odium kills honor, the other Heralds are broken and the Fused return does he consider the land retaken "by right of conquest" and follow Singer law.

Justice actually has nothing to do with it, at least until the 3rd or 4th ideals. It is a "Divine Attribute" of Nale and by extension his order but is only tangentially related to the Oaths. It seems to me like most people who can follow the oaths have those attributes, not that you need them to swear the oaths.

So while Moash may have his own valid view of justice, does he have the right attitude to swear the 2nd ideal and uphold the law above all else? I would say he definitely does not, so he could never become a Skybreaker.

You may not remember this, but the Skybreakers actually name their oaths.

The Second Ideal is called the oath of Justice. 

The Third is the oath of dedication.

The Fourth is the oath of Crusade.

The Fifth is the oath of Law.

See the Copermind: https://coppermind.net/wiki/

And Oathbringer Chapter 90 

 

Moash is dedicated, and has his own sense of justice, so I see no problem with this theory.

Also, Justice has nothing to do with the Oath of Justice?

 

22 hours ago, Hbal said:

As i mentioned there is a order to this thing as per Nale. Oathbringer Chapter 116. Alone answers this. Here's a summary of sorts, Simple man < Citylord < Highlord < Highprince < King < God. I hope that gives context with my earlier message.

Are you implying that Nale cares only about Justice on the Scale of Shards? One would think that he would care about Justice for the darkeyes, and for the lighteyes.

[Kramerfarve]

Hey Lord Mistborn skybreaker, please don’t double post, as it is against forum rules, if you need to add something just edit the original post.

[Hbal]

9 minutes ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Are you implying that Nale cares only about Justice on the Scale of Shards? One would think that he would care about Justice for the darkeyes, and for the lighteyes.

Caring doesn't come into it mate, Nale no longer feels emotion. Nale only sees the rule of law as Ookla excellently explained, Nale follow status quo until he comes to the decision in Oathbringer. He explains the logic to Szeth of how without Honors ultimate authority the laws revert to the original owners.

[Calderis]

"Vyre" has given up all semblance of his own wants and needs and desires. He's a dog on a leash. 

I don't think he's exhibiting any qualities that would attract a spren. He is obedient, but not brave (he's hiding from everything. Pure cowardice). So no dhstbringers. He may want Justice but he has no confidence, so no Skybreakers...

I don't see an order that a spren would be drawn to him. He's thrown all self determination out the window, and attracting a spren is all about living in a manner that they find appealing. 

[Jace21]

3 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Moash is dedicated, and has his own sense of justice, so I see no problem with this theory.

Also, Justice has nothing to do with the Oath of Justice?

Because what the Skybreakers name their Oaths is irrelevant, what matters when attracting a Spren is the personality of the person and the Oaths to be sworn. They do not swear to follow their own sense of justice, the justice they uphold is justice according to the law. 

If it were not so, there would be no need for Nale to leave and follow the Singers. Odium winning doesn't change the subjective definition of "Justice", it merely changes the Law.

Moash has no concern for the Law and never has, making Skybreakers unsuitable.

I agree with @Calderis by giving up his individuality/emotion/responsibilities I think Moash has actually made attracting a Radiantspren impossible. Voidbinding could work though once we learn more about it.