Jump to content

Gavilar, Amaram in League with Odium?


Soby

Recommended Posts

So in the chapter “the weight of it all” in OB, we see this excerpt: 

“Meridas held up the gemstone, inspecting it, then glanced toward Dalinar Kholin. “So, you’ve been speaking to him all this time too?”
“Even longer than I’ve been speaking to you.”

The question is, how long had Amaram been interacting with Odium? Prior to the war on the shattered plains? I do not think the deal Amaram made with odium was recent as Odium says “even longer than you,” which leads me to wonder if Gavilar was also in league with, Odium, believing that Odium using a desolation was the best thing for Alethkar and humanity. He thought Eshonai would be “excited” that he had learned how to bring back the Parshendi “gods” which leads to his assassination. It makes me think that while many believe Gavilar was on the same path as Dalinar, that their end goals are very different. I believe that they had similar tactics and strategies while being used by 2 different powers—Gavilar in league with Odium and Dalinar unwittingly being used by him, but also Cultivation. 

Its why she tells him that it is good for her to have a piece of him even if he ends up belonging to him (Odium). I believe that Cultivation sent the Almighty to Dalinar afternoon he visited the nightwotcher. 

Thoughts? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that Gavilar and the Sons of Honor were in league with Odium. They wanted to restore the Power of the Vorhin church, bring back the Heralds. Maybe influenced by Gavilar's visions. I think Gavilar and Dalinar hat similar goals (unite them!) but very different strategies and tactics.

Dalinar received the first vision a couple of months before we experienced the visions first hand in his POV in WoK. Long after he visited the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. However, it seems he had curious "dreams" during Highstorms before that:

Quote

"Dalinar came to himself, gasping, in the cabin of a stormwagon. Heart pounding, he spun about, kicking aside empty bottles and lifting his fists. Outside, the riddens of a storm washed the walls with rain. What in the Almighty’s tenth name had that been? One moment, he’d been lying in his bunk. The next, he had been … Well, he didn’t rightly remember. What was the drink doing to him now?" Oathbringer, ch. 114 

Though this scene was right before he went into the Nightwatcher's valley. I still can't explain, what exactly he experienced there. It sounds like a vision. But there is no further evidence that he experienced visions at this time or any time between his visit to the Nightwatcher and his story in WoK. Thus, the timeline doesn't really fit your theory that Cultivation pointed the Almighty (do you mean the Stormfather?) towards Dalinar right after she gave him her pruning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey! 

Yes, my apologies, I mean the stormfather, not Honor. 

I guess I’m curious as to how long amaram had been having conscious interactions with Odium. I know that the stated goal of the Sons of Honor was to restore strength to Vorinism, but it’s clear that Gavilar was willing to use utilitarian means to do so—he wanted to bring back the heralds and the gods of the Parshendi in order to bring about a desolation—this is utilitarianism at its most basic form (the ends justify the means), which I think Brandon is arguing against in this series—that in real morality, the end does not justify the means, but that the means must be honorable as well. Hence, journey before destination. 

If Amaram had been having conscious interactions with Odium prior to the battle of Thaylen Fields, I would argue that the sons of honor were bringing about the will of Odium consciously even if that wasn’t what they were doing prior to Gavilar’s death. 

But those who hold the utilitarian viewpoint in the series seem to end up making deals with Odium: ie, Amaram (from what is implied by his conversation with Dalinar and Kal at Thaylen Fields) and Taravangian at the end of OB. 

Lastly, if Gavilar was privy to the same visions Dalinar was, it seems strange that his true intent in bringing about a desolation was to restore vorinism since the revelations of the visions contradicted orthodox Vorinism in the first place? 

Thanks for the reply! 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram was not actively in league with Odium until somewhere around OB.

Do we have WoB on that? I didn't find anything. 

Members of the Sons of Honor seem to fall easily for Odium. Wasn't Queen Aesudan also somehow involved with them? However, Amaram's turn was somehow disappointing for me. I seem to have missed all foreshadowing that he is in line with Odium. Sadeas' troops I could understand. They were angry. Fell under the influence of the Thrill. But Amaram? With all his knowledge (thinking back to the Shallan-infiltrarion scenes in WoR, his "capture" of Taln, etc.)? I am somehow missing a piece on that one... Thus, I somehow understand where the OPs arguments came from - even though I don't agree with the initial assumption that Gavilar was in league with Odium all along.

Edited by equinox
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odium was "speaking" to Dalinar without Dalinar knowing it was Odium, he realized once he realized what the thrill is, so Odium could have been speaking to Amaram without Amaram knowing or being in league with Odium.

and the vision thing was after Galivar's death so maybe that was the stormfather trying to pick a new bondsmith, though I'm not sure why they stopped coming for a while, maybe because the Stormfather didn't know what Cultivation had done, and so waited to find out?

Actually maybe he gave the vision to Dalinar realized what a mess he was and started to give the visions to the beggar ( there was a death rattle that mentioned a beggar who had seen visions during the storms I dont have time to find it right now) who died so he gave the visions back to dalinar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, turtle373 said:

Odium was "speaking" to Dalinar without Dalinar knowing it was Odium, he realized once he realized what the thrill is, so Odium could have been speaking to Amaram without Amaram knowing or being in league with Odium.

I agree that Odium May have spoken to people without them knowing it was him. But I think Amaram had knowing interactions with Odium as well. The reason I say this is the following quote: 

“And what is this?” Meridas asked.
“The fulfillment of my promise to you,” Odium said. “Swallow it.”
“What?”
“If you wish for the promised power, ingest that—then try to control the one who follows. But be warned, the queen at Kholinar tried this, and the power consumed her.”
Meridas held up the gemstone, inspecting it, then glanced toward Dalinar Kholin. “So, you’ve been speaking to him all this time too?”
“Even longer than I’ve been speaking to you”

It seems like Odium and Amaram struck a previous deal where Amaram was promised power and that Amaram displays a level of jealousy when he realizes that Odium has been dealing with Dalinar in addition to himself. I mean this all could have just taken place literally at Thaylen Fields and that’s it...but it’s curious. Especially when Taravanagian strikes a deal with Odium and knows how to contact him to have a negotiation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Soby

good point. So Amaram was working with Odium previous to the battle, but what about Galivar? I dont see how he would have figured out how to return the fused without outside help, perhaps a spren similar to the one that had been working with Venli, I cant remember his name right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@turtle373 I’m not sure about Gavilar—hence the topic start. I’m curious about your and others thoughts on it. 

What makes me question Gavilar apart from everything already discussed is that he expected an assassination attempt but was utterly surprised that it was the Parshendi that sent Szeth. Why? Because he thought they wanted his help in bringing the fused back to Roshar to seek vengeance on humans for their displacement on Roshar, but Eshonai and the 5 made it clear they assinated him to keep their gods from returning. 

So I guess the question is who did Gavilar expect to assassinate him? The answer to that might reveal who’s ultimate goals Gavilar was pushing to achieve apart from his own. 

Edited by Soby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, equinox said:

Do we have WoB on that? I didn't find anything. 

Members of the Sons of Honor seem to fall easily for Odium. Wasn't Queen Aesudan also somehow involved with them? However, Amaram's turn was somehow disappointing for me. I seem to have missed all foreshadowing that he is in line with Odium. Sadeas' troops I could understand. They were angry. Fell under the influence of the Thrill. But Amaram? With all his knowledge (thinking back to the Shallan-infiltrarion scenes in WoR, his "capture" of Talk, etc.)? I am somehow missing a piece on that one... Thus, I somehow understand where the OPs arguments came from - even though I don't agree with the initial assumption that Gavilar was in league with Odium all along.

We don’t have a WoB either way. Personally, I think Amarams POV at the end of WoR points toward him not being in league with Odium at that point. He seems to be 100% Son of Honor at that point. And his prime motivation as a Son of Honor was always to bring the Vorin religion back to power, which had nothing to do with Odium. 

My theory is that his guilt, along with the loss of his good rep made him very upset and filled with hate, both toward himself and others (mostly toward himself, probably) and that when Odium then came and told him of the Heralds and their betrayal, he turned because there was, in his mind, no point in keeping fighting for the false church. I headcanon this at his time in Thaylen City, but that is my pure subjective opinion. 

Edit: I defenitely agree though, Amaram needed more page-time. Not giving him POVs is a mistake in my opinion. I would have cut Sigzil and/or Skars chapters to give some time to Amaram, but that is just me.

Edited by Toaster Retribution
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Soby said:

this is utilitarianism at its most basic form (the ends justify the means), which I think Brandon is arguing against in this series—that in real morality, the end does not justify the means, but that the means must be honorable as well. Hence, journey before destination. 

Good catch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Edit: I defenitely agree though, Amaram needed more page-time. Not giving him POVs is a mistake in my opinion. I would have cut Sigzil and/or Skars chapters to give some time to Amaram, but that is just me.

I wouldn't have cut any POVs because I think its important to see how bridge 4 is developing and more info on squires and Radiants and stuff. But yeah Amaram POVs would have been a really good idea, cause we can only guess at what happened to change his mind. You know what would be really cool is to get a POV for Odium, cause we haven't had a shards POV except for Vin and Kelsier but I dont count that because we didn't get to see a shards intent affecting their way of thinking

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Soby said:

So I guess the question is who did Gavilar expect to assassinate him? The answer to that might reveal who’s ultimate goals Gavilar was pushing to achieve apart from his own. 

Gavilar first assumes that Thaidakar, a leader of the Ghostbloods, was behind his assassination:

Quote

The King coughed. "You can tell ... Thaidakar ... that he's too late."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Gavilar first assumes that Thaidakar, a leader of the Ghostbloods, was behind his assassination:

Ooooohhh good catch! I shoulda reread that part before opening my big mouth! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the answer to this question is tied to the answer of "how is the return of the Radiants tied to the return of the Voidbringers?" Everyone seems to think that the two are connected somehow, but to the best of my knowledge this question hasn't yet been answered. Gavilar knew he was supposed to refound the KRs, but seemed to think that the best way to do that was to bring the old Listener gods back. Why? What did he know (or think he knew) that led him to do that? Until we know more about what he thought and why he thought it, I think we'll be in the dark on his motivations. He was still in a position where he saw things as being about the Alethi and Vorinism (very much the way Dalinar thought his job was to unite the Alethi highprinces until most of the way through WoR), so he may have been acting without full information, though clearly more information than Dalinar ever had and at least some information we do not yet have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

before desolations the Radiants would get a huge jump in numbers, the spren can tell somehow that a desolation is coming so they go and bond men to help both species(spren and Human) survive the desolation, you can see it happening in all of the SA books but especially Oathbringer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, turtle373 said:

I wouldn't have cut any POVs because I think its important to see how bridge 4 is developing and more info on squires and Radiants and stuff. But yeah Amaram POVs would have been a really good idea, cause we can only guess at what happened to change his mind. You know what would be really cool is to get a POV for Odium, cause we haven't had a shards POV except for Vin and Kelsier but I dont count that because we didn't get to see a shards intent affecting their way of thinking

I kinda disagree. I feel that we get enough info on the Squires and Bridge 4 as it is. But if you dont want to cut those, you can trim the Kholinar parts, or Moashs story. 

And an Odium POV would be cool. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I kinda disagree. I feel that we get enough info on the Squires and Bridge 4 as it is. But if you dont want to cut those, you can trim the Kholinar parts, or Moashs story. 

And an Odium POV would be cool. 

yeah I would trim the kholinar parts probably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I kinda disagree. I feel that we get enough info on the Squires and Bridge 4 as it is. But if you dont want to cut those, you can trim the Kholinar parts, or Moashs story. 

And an Odium POV would be cool. 

I agree that we definitely should've gotten to see why Amaram came to the decisions he did. The turn to Odium just seemed super rushed and didn't make sense given everything we've seen of his character up to the battle at Thaylen. 

As for an Odium POV, I would love one too, but we've literally never gotten a shard POV before so I wouldn't hold your breath - if we do ever get one, it probably won't be until the end of Stormlight. I'm not counting Sazed since we only gotten his POVs pre-ascension.  Kelsier is the only one that somewhat qualifies, but even then he only held Preservation for a very brief amount of time and his mind was still expanding when he gave it up to Vin. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odium wasn't speaking to Dalinar until the vision in which he appeared and Dalinar at first mistook him for Honor. 

Amaram makes it clear at the end that he turn because of learning of the Heralds betrayal. 

I don't think this is any more complicated than it appears. 

Edited by Calderis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...