Contrary to Conventional Wisdom…

[Confused]

This post spotlights perceived flaws in some widely held theories. I don’t necessarily have better answers, but IMO these theories don’t add up on their own terms. My analysis follows the statement of each theory.

Theory: Breaths are Awakening’s Fuel

Breaths are indivisible. Awakeners can’t use partial Breaths. If Breaths are the fuel, then Awakening should consume some portion of them, but it doesn’t. Something  about “color draining” instead fuels Awakening. (“End-neutral” non-Awakening Breath transfers analogize to Feruchemy and are fueled by “facilitating” Spiritual Realm Investiture.)

Theory: Water is Sand Mastery’s Focus

Consensus defines Focus as the magic system component that “shapes” the magic. Many posters view water as Sand Mastery’s Focus. But Sand Masters dehydrate no matter how they manipulate the microflora that configures the sand. The water instead “forges a brief Cognitive bond” between the Sand Master and the microflora:

Quote

Giving water to the tiny plant causes a chain reaction of sudden growth, energy, and Realmic transition. Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand.

(AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle pp. 369-370.)

Sand Masters use Spiritual Realm Investiture “to control the sand.” The “Cognitive bond” seems to give them this ability, suggesting Sand Masters’ thoughts “shape the magic” (much like Awakeners), not the water. Khriss says water causes uncontrolled growth. If it doesn’t “shape the magic,” water can’t be Sand Mastery’s Focus.

Theory: “The Nahel bond is obviously of both Cultivation and Honor, but not all Surgebinding is the Nahel bond”

I read this statement of common belief on Discord. It contradicts two WoBs that say HOW Shards access Spiritual Realm Investiture is the only magical difference among them: “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” 

A 2017 WoB confirms Honor – and only Honor – gives magic through bonds. “Bonds [are] an Honor thing”:

Quote

 What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go.

Source (bold added).

“Surgebinding” is the Nahel bond – by definition. Fabrials and Voidbinding also bind Roshar’s Surges, but they are not “Surgebinding” because these systems “obtain [their] magic” through different means than bonds. The means of access defines the system, not what the magic does. This is true even though Cultivation’s spren are part of Surgebinding.

“Bonds” on Roshar means a Spiritweb Connection between two people – mortal and Radiantspren. The Fused gain Voidbinding by replacing a Singer’s Spiritweb (filling that void). Fabrials use a captive spren to transform Stormlight into the power the spren personifies. All three bind Surges – manipulate Roshar’s fundamental forces – but they access their magic differently.

Theory: Investiture is limitless

This theory spins from Brandon’s frequent comment that Investiture is “Infinite.” “infinite” can mean either incomprehensibly vast OR endless. If there’s an endless amount of Investiture, then thermodynamics’ first law fails for want of a  constant sum of Investiture, matter, and energy. Since Brandon says it does apply, Investiture can’t be limitless. There’s just an incomprehensibly large amount of it.

Theory: The cosmere shares its Spiritual Realm Investiture with the larger universe of which it is a part

The issue here is thermodynamics’ first law – the sum of cosmere Investiture, matter, and energy is constant. But that law applies only if the cosmere is a closed, self-contained system. Brandon says the law does apply. Therefore, the cosmere is a closed system. The Spiritual Realm and its Investiture cannot extend beyond the cosmere.

Theory: Shard “intents” are divine personality traits

Brandon says Shards combine personality with some “primal force” like entropy and stasis. Posters commonly ignore the primal force component to focus on personality. I recently posted my thoughts on this subject. I think a Shard’s primal force converts the personality metaphor into workable magic mechanics.

Frost, for example, describes Odium as holding “God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.” To translate divine hatred into magic, I think we should look at what hate does. It corrodes relationships, divides people, and numbs feelings to justify bad behaviors. It makes sense to me Odium’s magic breaks people-to-people Connections as its mechanic, freeing a person’s basic instinctual drives from their cultural restraints.

This idea might be completely wrong. But it is equally wrong to ignore a Shard’s primal force altogether as so many do.

Until next time…

Edited December 3, 2018 by Confused

[Gasper]

Contrary to conventional wisdom, Iron and Steel allomancy are not using some weird form of magnetism or gravitation. As described in BoM when Wax and Marasi are holding the bands, humans and metals are the same thing. Given that they can both pull investure from the spiritual realm, I think that is what it means. It also means that pushes and pulls are the allomancer manipulating their inherent spiritual connection to the metal. Which might also explain why the line emit from a point higher than the center of gravity. The investure pulled through the focus forms a bridge between Allomancer and Metal, that bridge can then be manipulated to do things. This works with aluminum because aluminum is an investure sink, so the allomancer would just be pouring investure into it without forming the bridge. And a metalmind or hemalurgic spike resists because it is invested and there for the allomancer has a harder time forming and manipulating the bridge between themselves and the invested metal.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Gasper
spelling error

[Jace21]

@Confused

I am with you on most of these points, though I think most of what you are saying is the most common opinion and what you are refuting is in the minority, but either way you are still right.

I just want to point out though that some of your points seem to focus on your opinion of a word's definition rather than genuine misinformation. For example, you could easily argue Investiture is infinite, so long as infinite is defined as "can't run out", for example.

[Ripheus23]

Contrary to unconventional wisdom, the black sphere is a cleverly disguised mule in barn facade country.

[Bonus points for those who get the second and third reference.]

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

This post spotlights perceived flaws in some widely held theories. I don’t necessarily have better answers, but IMO these theories don’t add up on their own terms. My analysis follows the statement of each theory.

Theory: Breaths are Awakening’s Fuel

Breaths are indivisible. Awakeners can’t use partial Breaths. If Breaths are the fuel, then Awakening should consume some portion of them, but it doesn’t. Something  about “color draining” instead fuels Awakening. (“End-neutral” non-Awakening Breath transfers analogize to Feruchemy and are fueled by “facilitating” Spiritual Realm Investiture.)

Theory: Water is Sand Mastery’s Focus

Consensus defines Focus as the magic system component that “shapes” the magic. Many posters view water as Sand Mastery’s Focus. But Sand Masters dehydrate no matter how they manipulate the microflora that configures the sand. The water instead “forges a brief Cognitive bond” between the Sand Master and the microflora:

Sand Masters use Spiritual Realm Investiture “to control the sand.” The “Cognitive bond” seems to give them this ability, suggesting Sand Masters’ thoughts “shape the magic” (much like Awakeners), not the water. Khriss says water causes uncontrolled growth. If it doesn’t “shape the magic,” water can’t be Sand Mastery’s Focus.

Theory: “The Nahel bond is obviously of both Cultivation and Honor, but not all Surgebinding is the Nahel bond”

I read this statement of common belief on Discord. It contradicts two WoBs that say HOW Shards access Spiritual Realm Investiture is the only magical difference among them: “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” 

A 2017 WoB confirms Honor – and only Honor – gives magic through bonds. “Bonds [are] an Honor thing”:

“Surgebinding” is the Nahel bond – by definition. Fabrials and Voidbinding also bind Roshar’s Surges, but they are not “Surgebinding” because these systems “obtain [their] magic” through different means than bonds. The means of access defines the system, not what the magic does. This is true even though Cultivation’s spren are part of Surgebinding.

“Bonds” on Roshar means a Spiritweb Connection between two people – mortal and Radiantspren. The Fused gain Voidbinding by replacing a Singer’s Spiritweb (filling that void). Fabrials use a captive spren to transform Stormlight into the power the spren personifies. All three bind Surges – manipulate Roshar’s fundamental forces – but they access their magic differently.

Theory: Investiture is limitless

This theory spins from Brandon’s frequent comment that Investiture is “Infinite.” “infinite” can mean either incomprehensibly vast OR endless. If there’s an endless amount of Investiture, then thermodynamics’ first law fails for want of a  constant sum of Investiture, matter, and energy. Since Brandon says it does apply, Investiture can’t be limitless. There’s just an incomprehensibly large amount of it.

Theory: The cosmere shares its Spiritual Realm Investiture with the larger universe of which it is a part

The issue here is thermodynamics’ first law – the sum of cosmere Investiture, matter, and energy is constant. But that law applies only if the cosmere is a closed, self-contained system. Brandon says the law does apply. Therefore, the cosmere is a closed system. The Spiritual Realm and its Investiture cannot extend beyond the cosmere.

Theory: Shard “intents” are divine personality traits

Brandon says Shards combine personality with some “primal force” like entropy and stasis. Posters commonly ignore the primal force component to focus on personality. I recently posted my thoughts on this subject. I think a Shard’s primal force converts the personality metaphor into workable magic mechanics.

Frost, for example, describes Odium as holding “God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.” To translate divine hatred into magic, I think we should look at what hate does. It corrodes relationships, divides people, and numbs feelings to justify bad behaviors. It makes sense to me Odium’s magic breaks people-to-people Connections as its mechanic, freeing a person’s basic instinctual drives from their cultural restraints.

This idea might be completely wrong. But it is equally wrong to ignore a Shard’s primal force altogether as so many do.

Until next time…

I going to argue that the SR represents the whole universe, not just the collection of stars that is the Cosmere.

[Quantus]

9 hours ago, MountainKing said:

I going to argue that the SR represents the whole universe, not just the collection of stars that is the Cosmere.

I don think it can.  Unlike the more traditional fantasy Verses out there, the Cosmere if very specifically Finite.  There is a limited amount of Matter, Energy, AND Investiture.

 

Quote

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

source

 

 

[Kramerfarve]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

The Fused gain Voidbinding by replacing a Singer’s Spiritweb (filling that void).

What the Fused are doing is not necessarily  voidbinding. Many think it is merely a hack of surgebinding, and that voidbinding has not been seen in a large scale besides through Renarin’s weird situation.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I don think it can.  Unlike the more traditional fantasy Verses out there, the Cosmere if very specifically Finite.  There is a limited amount of Matter, Energy, AND Investiture.

 

 

this may hold for out own universe too. we're still not sure.

so, investiture being technically finite does not necessarily mean anything. no morre than matter in our universe being finite

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

this may hold for out own universe too. we're still not sure.

so, investiture being technically finite does not necessarily mean anything. no morre than matter in our universe being finite

It does when the topic under discussion is literally "Is investiture technically Finite?"  Which was the topic of the OP's 4th theory. 

[Ripheus23]

16 hours ago, Confused said:

Theory: Investiture is limitless

This theory spins from Brandon’s frequent comment that Investiture is “Infinite.” “infinite” can mean either incomprehensibly vast OR endless. If there’s an endless amount of Investiture, then thermodynamics’ first law fails for want of a  constant sum of Investiture, matter, and energy. Since Brandon says it does apply, Investiture can’t be limitless. There’s just an incomprehensibly large amount of it.

Theory: The cosmere shares its Spiritual Realm Investiture with the larger universe of which it is a part

The issue here is thermodynamics’ first law – the sum of cosmere Investiture, matter, and energy is constant. But that law applies only if the cosmere is a closed, self-contained system. Brandon says the law does apply. Therefore, the cosmere is a closed system. The Spiritual Realm and its Investiture cannot extend beyond the cosmere.

This might be true in one respect, quantity-wise. That is, Investiture is only manifested in a finite region of space. But the "Investiture field," for lack of a better term, has to span all of space simpliciter, so it would be indefinite. We'd say there were a finite number of excitations of the field, I guess. Moreover, degree-wise Investiture is potentially infinite: the Spiritual Realm is not divisible in space or time, so the simplicity of its power corresponds to infinity (as a unit, we'd say).

There's a reason Investiture has that word for its technical name. X has to Invest in Y, for there to be Investiture. The matter/energy analogue is a byproduct of this, I suppose. So there's Investiture per se (Spiritual degree, potentially infinite: if and only if X infinitely Invests in Y, that is) and then there are things that are Investiture-charged. The charge itself and the charged, maybe.

OMG I just got an image of... The Charged Ones ("The power of Sixteen will set us free!")

[MountainKing]

I don't see why investiture can't be throughout the universe, why must it only be in the Cosmere

[Quantus]

45 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I don't see why investiture can't be throughout the universe, why must it only be in the Cosmere

It's part of the definition, per WOB.  All Investiture is/was from Adonalsium pre-Shattering, and all Investiture was assigned to one of the 16 when it happened. 

 

Also, something to remember especially when talking about those Laws of Investiture Dynamics, there exists an Unrevealed 4th Law that "relates to Adonalsium" which is likely going to inform on most if not all of these questions.

 

Of course, it's all more or less moot, since per WOB Brandon has no intention of ever touching on or explaining things Outside the Cosmere.  Much like the God Beyond or the actual Afterlife, these are things he's said he prefers to leave each reader's own headcannon intact, allowing all this wonderful yet unending debate. 

 

[Embrisk]

18 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Contrary to unconventional wisdom, the black sphere is a cleverly disguised mule in barn facade country.

[Bonus points for those who get the second and third reference.]

The chronicles of narnia?

[MountainKing]

41 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's part of the definition, per WOB.  All Investiture is/was from Adonalsium pre-Shattering, and all Investiture was assigned to one of the 16 when it happened. 

 

Also, something to remember especially when talking about those Laws of Investiture Dynamics, there exists an Unrevealed 4th Law that "relates to Adonalsium" which is likely going to inform on most if not all of these questions.

 

Of course, it's all more or less moot, since per WOB Brandon has no intention of ever touching on or explaining things Outside the Cosmere.  Much like the God Beyond or the actual Afterlife, these are things he's said he prefers to leave each reader's own headcannon intact, allowing all this wonderful yet unending debate. 

 

I don't see where the wob says that investiture can't be outside the universe.

[Quantus]

10 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I don't see where the wob says that investiture can't be outside the universe.

"all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered"

Those two things say that All Cosmere Investiture was and still is in the closed system that it started as.  So if there is anything outside the Dwarf Galaxy that is the Cosmere which resembles Investiture, it doesnt interact with the Cosmere for both Doylistic and Watsonian reasons. At which point, if you prefer to think that there is another Adonalsium elsewhere with it's own allotment of Investiture, you certainly can.  It will not, however, become relevant in the story of the Cosmere.

 

[Calderis]

What follows are obviously my opinions. 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:29 PM, Confused said:

Theory: Breaths are Awakening’s Fuel

As you say, color is the fuel. It is consumed to fuel a command, which Awakens the breath to act. It may not be quite so simple though. If Brandon holds to this, then breath would also be consumed at a slow rate, and be the reason we don't see perpetual awakened tools wandering around. 

Spoiler

DavidB

Also, it seems to me like it would be more internally consistent if Awakened objects consumed Breath, to make all of these Breath-consuming powers in the last few chapters fit in better. So for example, if Vasher Awakened a shirt and left it Awakened and doing stuff for a day, then he might be down one-seventh of a breath when he took it back at the end of the day. (Of course, that mechanic requires it to be possible to transfer or Awaken with portions of a Breath, and if you could do that, then using the "putting the Breaths you don't want to transfer into a cloth until after the transfer" thing, you could feed the Returned by taking a tiny fraction of all the Halladren's breaths, instead of taking some people's entire Breaths and turning them into Drabs.)

Brandon Sanderson

Hum. I like that suggestion, actually. I think I'll use it. Though, what I'll do is say that if you leave the breath in for too long, one of them vanishes. If you can get them back quickly enough, however, there is no loss. That gives a bit of a better explanation of why there aren't a lot of awakened objects doing things all over the place. True, using the breath to make them would be initially expensive--but if you got a magic object that never winds down, then that might be worth the expense.

source

 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:29 PM, Confused said:

Theory: Water is Sand Mastery’s Focus

Water is a proposed focus because we don't know what Taldains focus is. I actually think that plants are the more likely of the too. The lichen are what Sand Mastery accesses and all Sand Master's have the same power. A power on darkside may be access through a different (or multiple) flora and provide a different power(s) 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:29 PM, Confused said:

Theory: “The Nahel bond is obviously of both Cultivation and Honor, but not all Surgebinding is the Nahel bond”

Except a Nahel bond is a means of access through a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, the spren themselves. 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:29 PM, Confused said:

Theory: Investiture is limitless

Limited per area. Just as Harmony only has access to the Investiture within his sphere of influence, and Autonomy is accessing Investiture beyond her sphere via the Avatars. 

The Cosmere itself is a set area, and the Investiture within it is limited... But the Cosmere is not everything. 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:29 PM, Confused said:

Theory: The cosmere shares its Spiritual Realm Investiture with the larger universe of which it is a part

Why would it not? The Spiritual has no location dependence. Why would it be confined by location? 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:29 PM, Confused said:

Theory: Shard “intents” are divine personality traits

As per our recent discord conversation, this is not one thing or the other. The intent are both. Personality and primal forces merged. The focus of theorizing has been mainly on the personality aspects, because we can attempt to figure that out in most cases from the way they have been described... But the forces that they are tied to? Even what when we have been told what they represent... Being bound by rules is a primal force for honor? What primal force is Autonomy, or Ambition, or Endowment? 

Disregarding either half is incorrect, but theorizing on the forces is much much more difficult. 

 

[Ripheus23]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Servillius said:

The chronicles of narnia?

Analytic philosophy. I don't remember the mule reference but the barn facade talk is from a thought experiment about the reliability of perception: suppose you are driving through a region with a lot of barn facades and one real barn. You see the real barn and conclude, "There's a barn here." Your judgment is based on a reliable form of knowledge-acquisition (perception) and it is a true belief, but it seems mere luck that you concluded, "There's a barn here," on the basis of the sole real barn in the area, so do you actually know that there's a barn there?

EDIT: Either that or you see one of the facades and judge, "There's a barn here," which is still technically true due to the non-facade, but... I think these are called "Gettier cases" or "Gettier examples."

Edited December 4, 2018 by Ripheus23

[MountainKing]

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

"all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered"

Those two things say that All Cosmere Investiture was and still is in the closed system that it started as.  So if there is anything outside the Dwarf Galaxy that is the Cosmere which resembles Investiture, it doesnt interact with the Cosmere for both Doylistic and Watsonian reasons. At which point, if you prefer to think that there is another Adonalsium elsewhere with it's own allotment of Investiture, you certainly can.  It will not, however, become relevant in the story of the Cosmere.

 

"all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered"

That doesn't say investiture can't exist outside of the Cosmere, it just says that all investiture got assigned to a shard.

[Quantus]

8 hours ago, MountainKing said:

"all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered"

That doesn't say investiture can't exist outside of the Cosmere, it just says that all investiture got assigned to a shard.

 

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

"all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered"

Those two things say that All Cosmere Investiture was and still is in the closed system that it started as.  So if there is anything outside the Dwarf Galaxy that is the Cosmere which resembles Investiture, it doesnt interact with the Cosmere for both Doylistic and Watsonian reasons.

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

At which point, if you prefer to think that there is another Adonalsium elsewhere with it's own allotment of Investiture, you certainly can.  It will not, however, become relevant in the story of the Cosmere.

[Ripheus23]

Yeah but there's a theory in-universe that Adonalsium created the entire universe, not just the Cosmere (I think). The Cosmere is the only region in which Adonalsium has specifically Invested, it would seem, but as Calderis notes:

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Spiritual has no location dependence. Why would it be confined by location? 

 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

Yeah but there's a theory in-universe that Adonalsium created the entire universe, not just the Cosmere (I think).

My understanding was that with In-world usage they had no concept of a distinction between Cosmere and Universe. 

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

The Cosmere is the only region in which Adonalsium has specifically Invested, it would seem, but as Calderis notes:

The questions in my mind are not whether or not the Spiritual Realm is location restricted (agreed it is not) but rather the more fundamental  "Is Cosmere<Universe?", If So, is there any Spiritual Barrier that is actively separating the Cosmere's Investiture from whatever may be outside (not a Location restriction, more a Connection one). I figure that if there exists Zero Connection between anything inside the Cosmere and Outside (and Im pretty confident in that assumption), then for all practical purposes they would have entirely separate Spiritual Realms, since what passes for geography there has no link or interaction between the two. 

[Ripheus23]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

My understanding was that with In-world usage they had no concept of a distinction between Cosmere and Universe. 

Well, there are only 100 solar systems maximum, in the Cosmere, so unless there are only a maximum of about 100 stars in any given sky (plus a few in cases of binary star systems)... But actually I think the AU star chart is confirmed to have non-Cosmere stars in it, or something like that.

EDIT:

Quote

Kurkistan

Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually-based?

Brandon Sanderson

The laws of physics in the cosmere are ours except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say yes.

source

So if the real universe is indefinite/infinite, so is the Cosmere universe, plus Spiritual power (which very likely would do nothing at all to deter the cosmos from being infinite!).

Edited December 4, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Well, there are only 100 solar systems maximum, in the Cosmere, so unless there are only a maximum of about 100 stars in any given sky (plus a few in cases of binary star systems)... But actually I think the AU star chart is confirmed to have non-Cosmere stars in it, or something like that.

damnation, I was taking him at the "Dwarf Galaxy" size descritpion, but you are right I see where he reduced that further to ~100 stars as a "cluster".  Granted, ~100 stars is likely what most of the US can see on the average night, with the current state of light pollution.  Could be that the in-world cultures are just used to less visible star than an earth contemporary culture? 

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

EDIT:

So if the real universe is indefinite/infinite, so is the Cosmere universe, plus Spiritual power (which very likely would do nothing at all to deter the cosmos from being infinite!).

Reasonable inference except that we have a specific WOB that the Cosmere is finite, no?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Reasonable inference except that we have a specific WOB that the Cosmere is finite, no?

We have one that says Investiture, like matter, in the Cosmere is finite. But that would be speaking specifically of the region, just like a Vessel can only access Investiture of which they are aware in their sphere of influence. 

I don't think that that excludes the universe also having Investiture, or limiting the Spiritual. 

As to the stars, they have enough to have a healthy splash of stars to create constellations however they expect to find them, like the Aon constellations on Sel. I don't think they have a limited starscape. 

[Ripheus23]

16 hours ago, Quantus said:

Reasonable inference except that we have a specific WOB that the Cosmere is finite, no?

Well there are a finite number of stars in the Cosmere, so yes. But the surrounding universe, if it is expanding, is indefinite in scale (although matter is thinning out then). It's probably not absolutely infinite since then there would be an infinite amount of matter in it (to fill all of its infinity---a finite amount of matter in an infinite universe would "thin out" to infinity, which is the Big Rip scenario). Is it expanding? If the physics of the Cosmere cosmos are the same as ours, "just" +Investiture, then presumably yes.