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***Spoilers for the Mistborn series, Words of Radiance, Wax and Wayne series, and Mistborn: Secret History.***

So my friend and I (who host a nerd podcast and talk about Branderson's work about once a month) have talked for a while about this theory:

Kelsier is the missing shard. He is the shard Survival/ Immortatlity/ Endlessness or whatever Sanderson is going to call that aspect of god.  When Adonalsium was shattered, Survival tore memories of him from the other shards AND FROM HIMSELF, then he hid himself on another invested planet to hide his powers should they manifest. He chose to hide with Preservation and Ruin because he knew they would be in conflict, and that would help hide him. 

Kelsier's survival is too continual. Life on the streets. Fighting the inquisitor. Literal DEATH at The Lord Ruler's hands (pun pun pun). The Well of Ascension. His final appearance at the end of The Bands of Mourning.

PLUS: "There's always another secret." I mean COME ON. Sanderson loves to use the narration trope of "The Unreliable Narrator" (see Writing Excuses episode 13.45) or just look at EVERY TIME HE USED A CHARACTERS THOUGHTS OR WORDS TO CONVINCE YOU OF AN UNTRUTH. MY favorite example is Shallan Davar thinking [paraphrase] "They must have dragged Jasnah's body up onto the deck." I think most of us bought that as truth and were shocked when Jasnah appeared at the end of the book.

Anyway, what do you think? is Survival/ immortality a shard? is that shard kelsier? is that Brandon's deepest secret? HIT ME WITH YOU FACTS AND THEORIES.

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Survival isn’t a shard- there is a shard who wants to survive... to quote from the Coppermind:

The one hint to its existence is a cryptic quote that Brandon signed in a book. Responding to the question "Give us the name of a Shard's intent we have not seen before," he wrote, "there is one who just wants to hide and survive."[1] This is likely referring to surviving Odium's onslaught against the other Shards.

The Shard's intent is only tangentially related to its desire to hide. The desire comes from its knowledge of events in the Cosmere.[2] This desire to not be caught is "quite intelligent".[3]

 

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35 minutes ago, imriel452 said:

The Shard's intent is only tangentially related to its desire to hide. The desire comes from its knowledge of events in the Cosmere.[2] This desire to not be caught is "quite intelligent".[3]

 

Thanks imriel452, I knew I'd seen this quote somewhere before.

I think this quote actually makes me think that it is MORE likely that Survival is shard.

Examples: What does preservation want more than anything? to preserve. Ruin? To destroy. Harmony? To find the balance between intervention and non-intervention. So it makes sense to me that survival would want to survive as his main attribute.  

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If Kelsier was a Shard it would basically preclude him from taking part in any future story directly. When Shards take direct action it’s a planet ending kind of cataclysm. I’m pretty sure Kelsier is going to be showing up in future Mistborn books, so it would surprise me if he was in fact a Shard. I also don’t see a timeline for when he could have ascended a second time. Secret history and Bands of Mourning lay out what he has been up to pretty well and certainly don’t give any indication of Shardliness.

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I get what you’re saying President Sword Nimi, but I think he has been ascended (kind of) this whole time. I think he hid the powers of Survival (or whatever) deep inside himself or maybe somewhere on the planet,  and kept just some basic investiture for himself. He wove himself into existence in an already established world and family so that no other shard would be suspicious.

Kelsier, having given up the powers (temporarily), let’s him interact with future stories and characters without the planet ending cataclysms you mentioned taking place. 

Again, just my thoughts! I love hearing the counter points! 

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Given that it’s the Cosmere I can’t say definitively that something isn’t possible. One thing I like to do is take other stories and explain in my head how they fit in the Cosmere. So while what you suggest is certainly possible, I find it unlikely. Kel’s great accomplishment of “Surviving” was really accomplished at the hands of Preservation. Without his intervention Kel was going to stretch out into the beyond and become part of The One. I also think it would be weak writing. If Kel is going to end up as a Shard, it would be far more interesting to read about how he gets there than for it to just be retconned into his back story.

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Kelsier is not a shard, he is an agent of Harmony and sort of a sliver. Sorry to burst your bubble.

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I think agent of Harmony is an overstatement.  Harmony's particular beliefs that tend to make it difficult for him to act give the vessel enough cover to get away with letting his old friends act however they want. Like when Marsh says he is encouraging Wax because he is doing Kelsier's work, and Sazed's beliefs don't allow him to restrict Marsh even though he disagrees with giving out Spook's hemalurgy journal. 

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@the OP, you have it entirely wrong, or you see, Adonals is but a Shard of Kelsierium.

Spoiler

Image result for absurd funny

 

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13 hours ago, prayingforsuperpowers said:

***Spoilers for the Mistborn series, Words of Radiance, Wax and Wayne series, and Mistborn: Secret History.***

So my friend and I (who host a nerd podcast and talk about Branderson's work about once a month) have talked for a while about this theory:

Kelsier is the missing shard. He is the shard Survival/ Immortatlity/ Endlessness or whatever Sanderson is going to call that aspect of god.  When Adonalsium was shattered, Survival tore memories of him from the other shards AND FROM HIMSELF, then he hid himself on another invested planet to hide his powers should they manifest. He chose to hide with Preservation and Ruin because he knew they would be in conflict, and that would help hide him. 

Kelsier's survival is too continual. Life on the streets. Fighting the inquisitor. Literal DEATH at The Lord Ruler's hands (pun pun pun). The Well of Ascension. His final appearance at the end of The Bands of Mourning.

PLUS: "There's always another secret." I mean COME ON. Sanderson loves to use the narration trope of "The Unreliable Narrator" (see Writing Excuses episode 13.45) or just look at EVERY TIME HE USED A CHARACTERS THOUGHTS OR WORDS TO CONVINCE YOU OF AN UNTRUTH. MY favorite example is Shallan Davar thinking [paraphrase] "They must have dragged Jasnah's body up onto the deck." I think most of us bought that as truth and were shocked when Jasnah appeared at the end of the book.

Anyway, what do you think? is Survival/ immortality a shard? is that shard kelsier? is that Brandon's deepest secret? HIT ME WITH YOU FACTS AND THEORIES.

Sorry, but Kelsier is going to feature in Era 3, and also hasn't even figured out a way to get off of Scadrian space, so he definitely isn't a Shard.

And as others have stated, Survival is not a Shard. There is a Shard that wants to survive, but survival is only tangentially related to its intent.

Scadrial didn't even exist when the Shattering occurred. Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial afterward by themselves.

Kelsier being a Shard would be a very bad idea, anyway, since there's no way he would be able to stop himself from meddling and screwing around with things.

Have you read Secret History? We get lots of information about him and what he's up to during Era 1, and there's absolutely no hint that he has any kind of Shardic power except for the very specific events that happened therein.

It's a fun theory, but sadly, I don't think that it holds water.

 

Supplementary WOBs

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

source
Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Kelsier is bound to Scadrial the same way that a spren is bound to Roshar, because of the level of Investiture and the type and the way it happened. It is possible to get offworld but he does not know what it is.

source  

 

Edited by RShara
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Thanks for all the responses everyone! I love the back and forth. 

I have read Mistborn: Secret History several times, and I think that doesn't do anything to change my mind about this theory. BUT what I have realized is the argument I'm making could be infinite. ("well he has the power of survival, so he can do anything to survive" which is not how Brandon's magic systems work).

That being said the quotes from Brandon (per the norm) put an end to this theory.  Thanks again everyone for your responses!

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Shards have the ability to move worlds on their own, and holding one I. Truth carries enough Investiture that the body of the Vessel is disincorporated and subsumed within the power itself. 

Kelsier was a man, and would have been drawn to the Beyond if not for the power of the well anchoring him and turning him to a Cognitive Shadow. A shard would never have had that issue. 

He is sustained now by the power of Preservation. He may become a Shard in the future, and he was one while holding Preservation, but he isn't one now. 

If he had been a dual shard while holding Preservation, he'd have stomped Ruin, body or no.

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As a general statement, there are some Shard theories (such as the Quadrant theory that I love to advocate whenever possible) that do call for a "Survival Shard" as one of the 16, but specifically not the "Shard that Wants to Survive" (which in that theory is more likely the Knowledge/Wisdom shard (on the theory that it's know so much about whats actually going on across the cosmere that it's making the Smart Move and hiding).

 

On 12/3/2018 at 7:53 AM, Calderis said:

He is sustained now by the power of Preservation. He may become a Shard in the future, and he was one while holding Preservation, but he isn't one now.

I agree completely at Now=Era1, I probably should agree but secretly dont want to at Now=Era2. Is there any evidence yet either way in Era 2 given the other shenanigans?  If we're right about Trell's identity, there might be a Local that is waking up as an avatar, if not full shard.

 

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I wonder if Brandon is setting Kel up to take Autonomy. The self reliant nature of the Shard feels like it matches Kel pretty well. Lone wolf who’s only charge to his followers is “Survive”. I think Brandon has said in the past that Shards could have a slightly different name if they had a different vessel. Maybe once the Scadrians kill Autonomy Kelsier will claim the Shard & give it his own little personal touch.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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Kelsier can't even get out of Scadrial in the current era and apparently he tried extremely hard to do so. And where in the Scadrial is he gonna find a vessel-less shard (a vessel succession and vessel replacement plot has already been overdone in the mistborn franchise)

Unless Kel is also Sanderson's pet character like Hoid or that he is really setting him up as a Foil against Hoid then it might be possible but i think his story might actually end at Scadrial

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On 2018-12-02 at 6:58 PM, RShara said:

Kelsier being a Shard would be a very bad idea, anyway, since there's no way he would be able to stop himself from meddling and screwing around with things.

You mean like Bavadin and in a different sense Rayse?

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7 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

You mean like Bavadin and in a different sense Rayse?

Probably worse than Autonomy, maybe not as bad as Rayse.

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2 hours ago, RShara said:

Probably worse than Autonomy, maybe not as bad as Rayse.

Probably. But my point was just that the fact that he would probably meddle is irrelevant to whether he might eventually become a Shard or not, as there’s precedent for that among Shards already.

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But considering that the Shards now know what a bad idea it is to have some personalities take up Shards, why wouldn't the free ones, and whatever other forces are out there, prevent something like that from happening?

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2 hours ago, RShara said:

But considering that the Shards now know what a bad idea it is to have some personalities take up Shards, why wouldn't the free ones, and whatever other forces are out there, prevent something like that from happening?

How would they stop it? At least most of them are heavily invested in planets presumably light years away from Scadrial, and thus would not be able to go there without withdrawing their power, possibly with catastrophic results to their Shardworlds. For the record, I don’t think Kelsier will become a Shard, I’m just playing devil’s advocate here.

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Shards reside in the Spiritual Realm, and unless they're bound somehow, can focus their attention in many places, even if they're Invested in a planet. I'm sure a number of them would be willing to Beyond-stomp Kelsier before he managed to gain that power. Not to mention groups like the 17th Shard. and the like.

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

Shards reside in the Spiritual Realm, and unless they're bound somehow, can focus their attention in many places, even if they're Invested in a planet. I'm sure a number of them would be willing to Beyond-stomp Kelsier before he managed to gain that power. Not to mention groups like the 17th Shard. and the like.

Then why did Odium need to ‘physically’ (for lack of a better term) travel to Sel, Threnody and Roshar in order to kill Devotion, Dominion, Ambition and Honor? Presumably the other Shards would need to actually go to Kelsier-Shard if they wanted to splinter him.

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Travel for Shards is complicated, and not exactly physical. It's mostly shifting your attention to places. Note the descriptions that Vin gives of "traveling" while she was holding Preservation.

Quote

She followed. Speed wasn't an issue. In fact, she didn't even really feel like she was moving. She "followed" because that was how her mind interpreted the experience of instantly moving her consciousness to the place where Ruin had focused his.

 

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@RShara I'm with @Fanghur Rahl here. The Shards power may reside Spiritually, but the Vessels mind is in the Cognitive.

If they could reach out anywhere, shards wouldn't be limited to a sphere of influence in the first place. 

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Eh. I mean we know of at least one Shard that's not Invested in a planet, and another that is moving all over the place. There's motives for all sorts of beings to keep someone like Kel from Ascending with a Shard he'd be compatible with.

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