Scadrian Blades and Plate

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

The real limiter is the number of people good with bendalloy. If your time speed ratio was only 8, and you had 11 overlapping bubbles, you could do about a million years in an hour of real-time. 

Medallions are going to reduce that limiter more and more as things move toward Era 3.  I tend to think that wealth is going to be the barrier to the metallic arts far more than geneology, before long.  Actual Ferrings and Misting are going to be more along the lines of Prodigies with natural talent, but not required.  Unless we get more specific limitations on medallion use, similar to how Fabrial surges are more restricted than Radiant surges. 

[Calderis]

Have a ring of sliders so that their bubbles overlap over a central point. Put your item in said point... Done. 

Not that I think it would work out the way people want it to... But still. The time passage thing isn't really that hard. 

[HSuperLee]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Have a ring of sliders so that their bubbles overlap over a central point. Put your item in said point... Done. 

Not that I think it would work out the way people want it to... But still. The time passage thing isn't really that hard. 

I have to be honest, I did not think of that. Though I agree, all this setup would basically be a crapshoot, but if you were rolling with d20's. For all we know, the bubbles themselves will just gain sentience, and then Scadrial will have to deal with angry time bubbles. It just doesn't seem like a good idea.

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

For all we know, the bubbles themselves will just gain sentience, and then Scadrial will have to deal with angry time bubbles. It just doesn't seem like a good idea.

I gave you a +1 just because I loved the line 'angry time bubbles'. 

Of course, when we were developing the atomic bomb, scientists considered the possibility that the atmosphere would catch on fire, and concluded that it probably would not happen. Time bubbles, angry or otherwise, sounds down right responsible in comparison. 

Of course, just because you can grant sentience, doesn't mean you will get a useful personality. The sword might end up being a pacifist. 

[Quantus]

11 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Of course, just because you can grant sentience, doesn't mean you will get a useful personality. The sword might end up being a pacifist. 

I wonder about that: given how much personal Identity and Intent impact the manifestation of such things, especially when it happens naturally.  I mean, sword is fundamentally, conceptually a weapon.  I mean, a TypeIV could be just about anything based on the Command (overpowering any innate definitions).   But a naturally emergent Sapience would be, I think, something of a slave to the core concept of whatever it actually is.  A naturally emergence sapience (or a forced but unguided one) that was a Pacifist sword would be as impossible as a placid&timid Stormfather; you couldnt be the embodiment of the Storm while manifesting it's opposite traits.

 

And as I write that, I feel it has implications on the heralds...

[Gasper]

15 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Of course, when we were developing the atomic bomb, scientists considered the possibility that the atmosphere would catch on fire, and concluded that it probably would not happen. Time bubbles, angry or otherwise, sounds down right responsible in comparison. 

Of course, just because you can grant sentience, doesn't mean you will get a useful personality. The sword might end up being a pacifist.

I am not sure that I want a angry time bubble with Wayne's personality running around. 

[HSuperLee]

Y'all have no idea how much I want an excuse to say, "I warned you about angry time bubbles bro." now.

I guess I have to hope Brandon reads this thread between now and Mistborn Era 4, and has Khriss try some experiments at some point.

[Jace21]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

I wonder about that: given how much personal Identity and Intent impact the manifestation of such things, especially when it happens naturally.  I mean, sword is fundamentally, conceptually a weapon.  I mean, a TypeIV could be just about anything based on the Command (overpowering any innate definitions).   But a naturally emergent Sapience would be, I think, something of a slave to the core concept of whatever it actually is.  A naturally emergence sapience (or a forced but unguided one) that was a Pacifist sword would be as impossible as a placid&timid Stormfather; you couldnt be the embodiment of the Storm while manifesting it's opposite traits.

I wonder if the way said sword was created would have an effect on it's personality though. After all, it has "grown up" in isolation for millions of years with no interaction of any kind. Depending on how the bubbles interact with the cognitive realm then it may not know it is a weapon.

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

I wonder if the way said sword was created would have an effect on it's personality though. After all, it has "grown up" in isolation for millions of years with no interaction of any kind. Depending on how the bubbles interact with the cognitive realm then it may not know it is a weapon.

Interesting thought.  I think it would know what at it's time of physical creation, before the time bubble experiment was brought into play.  Even while mundane it would have enough of a cognitive and spiritual aspect to be repaired by surges, and I would think (based on nothing in particular) that any act of conscious Creation/Crafting is going to imprint some amount of Intent/Identity/purpose.  If that didnt do it, a group outpouring if Investiture targeted at it would, I think, force some bit of their opinion/definition onto the object along with their Investiture (assuming there isnt some way to scrub that from investiture the way you can with personal Identity). 

Everything needs a spiritual and Cognitive aspect, I dont think anything can exist without thinking itself is something.  Closest I come up with is if the sword/focal object is a other shape/object that could be used as a weapon.  So if it thought is was say just a large shard of obsidian, but would consider itself a weapon until used that way; put another way, a naturally sharp stick (or coincidentally sharp curtain-rod) isnt going to become a spear until it stabs somebody.  

[Jace21]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Interesting thought.  I think it would know what at it's time of physical creation, before the time bubble experiment was brought into play.  Even while mundane it would have enough of a cognitive and spiritual aspect to be repaired by surges, and I would think (based on nothing in particular) that any act of conscious Creation/Crafting is going to imprint some amount of Intent/Identity/purpose.  If that didnt do it, a group outpouring if Investiture targeted at it would, I think, force some bit of their opinion/definition onto the object along with their Investiture (assuming there isnt some way to scrub that from investiture the way you can with personal Identity). 

Everything needs a spiritual and Cognitive aspect, I dont think anything can exist without thinking itself is something.  Closest I come up with is if the sword/focal object is a other shape/object that could be used as a weapon.  So if it thought is was say just a large shard of obsidian, but would consider itself a weapon until used that way; put another way, a naturally sharp stick (or coincidentally sharp curtain-rod) isnt going to become a spear until it stabs somebody.  

I'm inclined to agree, I just thought it was an interesting idea. If the bubble does serve as a cognitive barrier it would be fun to see. After all, a few hours of being thought of as a weapon isn't much compared in millenia long life. 

A sickle or something would be ideal. Does it think it's a weapon or a farm tool?

[SwordNimiForPresident]

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Mind Sculptor said:

I'm inclined to agree, I just thought it was an interesting idea. If the bubble does serve as a cognitive barrier it would be fun to see. After all, a few hours of being thought of as a weapon isn't much compared in millenia long life. 

A sickle or something would be ideal. Does it think it's a weapon or a farm tool?

I don't believe that inanimate objects think that they are anything. Instead they merely echo the thoughts of the sapient things that think about them. Can't be sure about how this relates to sapient Investiture but there it is.

As to the topic of storing plate and blade in a metal mind, I do not think it is possible. You can only store your own Investiture in a metal mind. I don't see how this could translate to storing something external. Additionally, I don't think you can store physical Investiture in a metal mind or Hemalurgic spike. The term Investiture seems to relate to two things in the Cosmere. First is physical Investiture such as Atium, the Mists, plate & blade or BioCroma. Second is spiritual (I guess? can't think of another way to describe it) Investiture. This is the thing inside of a person that lets them access the different magic systems. As an example, Stormlight is physical Investiture. The ability to use storm light to control the Surges granted by the Nahel Bond is spiritual Investiture. I think a safe measure of what can be stored in a nicrosil metal mind is "what can be stolen with a Hemalurgic spike?".

Using Bands of Morning as an example. Massive plot spoilers. Completely ruins the ending.

Spoiler

When Marasi & later Waxillium use the bands, they still need to swallow metal in order to use Allomancy. They can use Feruchemy because Kelsier left a huge amount of unkeyed aspects in it (including the aspects in the nicrosil portion that make him a Fullborn), but as far as Allomancy goes they only gained the ability of a Mistborn to burn metal.

This actually makes me wonder about the machanics of spiking a breath. I'm sure there's a massive post about that somewhere here but I'm to lazy to look.

 

As to the question of what the scythe thinks its. I imagine that depends on whether or not there is a peasant rebellion in the region.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

This actually makes me wonder about the machanics of spiking a breath. I'm sure there's a massive post about that somewhere here but I'm to lazy to look.

The mechanics are that you can't... Because they're to much in the physical realm. 

Quote

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

source

Storing a plate or blade (totally missed that part of the discussion) by extension is absolutely a no. 

[Jace21]

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't believe that inanimate objects think that they are anything. Instead they merely echo the thoughts of the sapient things that think about them. Can't be sure about how this relates to sapient Investiture but there it is.

Stick would beg to differ!

I think inanimate objects do "think" of themselves as what they are, we see this implied when Shallan and Jasnah interact with Cognitive beads and Shai when speaking of Forgery in Emperors Soul.

The distinction is that they only think of themselves that way because others have thought them into that. So perception does make a difference but after that, they themselves wish to be what they are.

We have several WoBs referencing an objects self-perception, such as the one about something half in half out of a time bubble (on phone, will find later)

If the above is correct, I was wondering how much of a cognitive imprint a few hours/days would have on an the mind of a sentient object that existed for millenia in isolation.

I had not thought about it that way, but I think you're right about Hemalurgy and Feruchemy. The storeable attributes are spikeable and vice versa. Likewise if you can't spike it then you can't store it. Have an upvote!

Edited December 5, 2018 by Ookla the Mind Sculptor

[Quantus]

13 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't believe that inanimate objects think that they are anything. Instead they merely echo the thoughts of the sapient things that think about them. Can't be sure about how this relates to sapient Investiture but there it is.

Adding to what @Ookla the Mind Sculptor said, from the scene with Dalinar repairing stone, they definately have their own opinion of themselves, something that changes over time, such that there's a window where the chunks still remember being one piece.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Quantus

[+Doomstick]

Aren’t people forgetting that there would have to be a human inside compounding?

[HSuperLee]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the boombox said:

Aren’t people forgetting that there would have to be a human inside compounding?

So far the model, as I understand it, is to merely use compounding to create a highly invested sword, then let the sword sit inside the time bubble for an eon. The compounding would happen before the bubbles are even created.

[Jace21]

36 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

So far the model, as I understand it, is to merely use compounding to create a highly invested sword, then let the sword sit inside the time bubble for an eon. The compounding would happen before the bubbles are even created.

Precisely, the sword would be imvested then left inside the time bubble to develop sentience. Once the sword was invested there would be no need to continue compounding.

[+Doomstick]

Okay, I saw a WoB on this:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367-skyward-release-party/#e11577

(55th entry)

[HSuperLee]

For future reference, this is the WoB mentioned:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can a metalmind be made into a sentient object?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's already got Investiture in it? Yes.

source

 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

On 12/4/2018 at 9:59 PM, Calderis said:

The mechanics are that you can't... Because they're to much in the physical realm.

I guess I could have explained myself better. I didn’t mean spiking the actual BioChroma, but rather the effects of having breath.

For example. Let’s say you spike someone who is of the 5th heightening. Could you take their immortality? Their breath would obviously be lost because you killed them with a spike to the heart, but near as I can tell the effects of holding breath don’t actually come from the breath. The breath isn’t fuel. It’s more like a key. While you have it, your spirit has access to new abilities. And since Hemalurgic spikes tear off a piece of your victims soul, it may be possible to steal things like perfect pitch or immortality. Another thought. Could you spike the royal locks out of someone like Siri or Vivenna? 

I’m sure there’s some glaring hole in my theory here, but it’s a fun thought experiment.

 

Also, sorry that this isn’t really on topic.

[Weltall]

23 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I guess I could have explained myself better. I didn’t mean spiking the actual BioChroma, but rather the effects of having breath.

For example. Let’s say you spike someone who is of the 5th heightening. Could you take their immortality? Their breath would obviously be lost because you killed them with a spike to the heart, but near as I can tell the effects of holding breath don’t actually come from the breath. The breath isn’t fuel. It’s more like a key.

Except that the effects aren't discrete like that, they're inseperable from you having a certain number of Breaths. It's why you need a certain number to reach a given Heightening and will lose that heightening if you give away enough of your Breath through one method or another. The same fact is also why Breath-granted powers are a continuum and the Heightenings just represent when some given power reaches its maximum. Even if there was a particular combination of metal and bindpoints that you could use to steal something like the sense of hearing or sight specifically, you wouldn't get perfect pitch or perfect color recognition from spiking an Awakener because those are directly linked to having hundreds of Breaths, which hemalurgy can't steal.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Ookla the Gralsritter

[ZenBossanova]

While I think we can use Scadrian magics to give a sword life, is there any other magic (or combinations of magics) where we can make a Shard blade and/or plate? 

I would say the essential aspects are:

1) Access to Surges OR other powers. 

2) Magic-enhanced sharpness

3) Ability to Summon & Dismiss

4) Intelligence / Life

 

 

[HSuperLee]

Just now, ZenBossanova said:

While I think we can use Scadrian magics to give a sword life, is there any other magic (or combinations of magics) where we can make a Shard blade and/or plate? 

I would say the essential aspects are:

1) Access to Surges OR other powers. 

2) Magic-enhanced sharpness

3) Ability to Summon & Dismiss

4) Intelligence / Life

 

 

Just in regards to Scadrial:

1. We definitely could see a Scadrian sword that granted access to the metalic arts. Basically just the Bands of Mourning in sword form.

2. This depends. I've already stated that I don't think there's a way in the metalic arts to cut any material, but we certainly could have a spike sword that killed in a single blow by severing the spirit.

3. Unlikely.

4. Yes

[ZenBossanova]

Taldain: unclear. We know too little. I don't see a way to use it, as it is. 

Sel: 1, 2. I would not rule out a rudimentary form of 3, perhaps summoning something from a particular Aon that you wore. 

Nalthis: 2, 4 Nightblood seems to be his own thing. 

Others: We know too little 

Am I forgetting anything? 

[Gasper]

11 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Just in regards to Scadrial:

1. We definitely could see a Scadrian sword that granted access to the metalic arts. Basically just the Bands of Mourning in sword form.

2. This depends. I've already stated that I don't think there's a way in the metalic arts to cut any material, but we certainly could have a spike sword that killed in a single blow by severing the spirit.

3. Unlikely.

4. Yes

I agree, I doubt that Scadrian Blades would have the cutting ability of a Rosharian blade. Rosharian blades were designed to kill things like Thunderclasts and heavily armored foes, A scadrian blade would most likely be a counter to such blades while giving the user an ability or set of abilities from allomancy or feruchemy. I still think that summoning and dismissing is possible through creative use of nicrosil. Intelligence, likely.