WTD!!!?!!?

[Ripheus23]

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I have a theory that Hoid is actually, perhaps not the good guy *inaudible*? I think he's going to be the big bad guy.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Hoid would, perhaps, agree with you. He says [that] to Dalinar very clearly.

source

I was looking for a WoB about the meaning of the word "Nahel" and found the above along the way!

*Squawk!*

Spoiler

 

[Quantus]

Argument that Hoid is the Protagonist:  Umm....He seems a decent fellow?

Argument that Hoid is the Antagonist:  HE WARNS EVERYONE NOT TO TRUST HIM!!!

 

 

[imriel452]

One side shattered Adonalsium for a reason after all, and uniting the Shards could be seen as a step to undoing all of that.

Odium may be killing vessels to prevent all that...maybe splinters can never be remade into Shards....

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, imriel452 said:

Odium may be killing vessels to prevent all that...maybe splinters can never be remade into Shards....

Per Word of Brandon, Odium is killing Shards and not absorbing their power because he's inherently selfish and wants to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere, he's only using the idea that some of the Vessels violated whatever agreement they had as a pretext, given that he went after Ambition first because he saw her as a personal threat. We know that splintering can be reversed.

[imriel452]

Well damnation I had missed those.

i stand corrected *bows head in supplication*

[Rainier]

The best that Hoid can do is run behind the boulder of time and nudge it one way or another. He's not getting in front of it for anyone else's sake, even if it means letting that boulder crush people. 

So it's not just Dalinar he's warned, it's Shallan, too. He's not a good guy, even if he's opposed to Odium, which we don't know for sure.

[insert_anagram_here]

The question is how bad can someone really be when they even warn you of their own actions?

[+Invocation]

44 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The question is how bad can someone really be when they even warn you of their own actions?

Depends on if he's voluntarily warning them. Depending on how deep the no harm thing Hoid has going on runs, he may have to warn them or risk the unpleasant consequences, if something he has or will do may come to harm a major player like that.

[Jace21]

10 hours ago, Rainier said:

He's not a good guy, even if he's opposed to Odium, which we don't know for sure.

We can be reasonably sure he is opposed to Odium at least for now in SA. I am more sure of that than a lot of things that are outrighted stated.

That said, I could totally see Hoid as a future antagonist. Not that he is secretly evil, or even that what he wants is bad, just that his goals will be in opposition to one or more future protagonists.

After all, we have been warned.

[Leyrann]

I think we already know the antagonist of MB4, no matter who it is. Is it Hoid? Perhaps. Maybe it's a tri-Shard Dalinar. Or Kelsier. Elantris. People will clash, and Brandon will certainly try to get us as invested as possible, and what better way to do that than to pitch those we love against one another, on the assumption it makes sense they're opposed?

[+robardin]

I wouldn't say he's "bad" for admitting he has ultimate goals that allow for things like the destruction of Roshar, when he says to Dalinar:

Quote

 "...our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen. ... I cannot risk too much, because if he finds me, then I become nothing... The one you fight, Dalinar Kholin. The father of hatred."

So we can infer a few interesting things:

He's willing to "watch this world crumble and burn" (presumably, the victory of Odium - in the scenario he's imagining, he's a passive bystander) in order to "get what I need", yet he's in mortal danger from Odium.

So what is it that he "needs" from Roshar that would still be possible, if not actually facilitated, by Odium's getting free from the Rosharan system, even if Odium would move to destroy him on sight? He's not on Roshar to prevent Odium from getting free? Or... Is that actually what's at stake for Odium?

We actually don't know, do we?

Dalinar says that Odium would still be trapped and "unable to leave" even if he destroyed humanity with this Desolation as incentive for Odium to accept the contest of champions, but Odium accepts that offer without admitting or denying that that statement was true. It seems like logically that can't be true... If winning a Contest of Champions was the only way Odium could break free of the Oathpact, wouldn't he be the one pursuing the option the hardest?

Hoid's goals/motives:

- Are opposed by Frost and the 17th Shard, who believe in non-intervention, where Hoid's pursuit involves a lot world-hopping and cameo-style meddling in world events

- Are rejected or dismissed by all the Shards who we've seen respond to him with a Letter, except for Harmony, who is intrigued by what Hoid's unknown missive suggested and Wants To Know More Before Making A Decision

- Are irrelevant when it comes to Odium, who just wants to destroy him

- His goal is something Odium doesn't want to happen, and Frost mentions it as appearing to be an extension of a pre-existing grudge against Rayse (Odium) and Bavadin (Autonomy)

- That letter to Frost and the other Shards appears to be specifically an appeal for help in dealing with Odium

And yet, Hoid is willing to watch Roshar crumble to "get what he wants".

So... Is (one of the ways) for Odium to be defeated still going to result in Roshar's destruction? Is THAT the secret that caused the Recreance?

Or is Hoid speaking of a pan-Cosmere goal that goes beyond defeating Odium and/or Autonomy as a Stage Two?

Edited November 28, 2018 by robardin

[What's a Seawolf?]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

I think we already know the antagonist of MB4, no matter who it is. Is it Hoid? Perhaps. Maybe it's a tri-Shard Dalinar. Or Kelsier. Elantris. People will clash, and Brandon will certainly try to get us as invested as possible, and what better way to do that than to pitch those we love against one another, on the assumption it makes sense they're opposed?

I think this is the probable course of MB4.  Brandon will pit the surviving fan favorites against each other, and give each faction a legitimate reasoning for their beliefs and methods.

There may or may not be a 'big bad' lurking somewhere amongst them, but I think it's likely we see the equivalent of Dalinar v. Kelsier v. Sazed v. Khriss v. Nightblood.  (Not necessarily those characters, but that general idea.)

[The Invested Beard]

He might not be good, but the actual big bad? Don't see it.

[tmnsquirtle]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:02 PM, Ookla the Bearded said:

He might not be good, but the actual big bad? Don't see it.

I actually agree. Being a proper villain, in my mind, would require the ability to actually harm others.

Then again he could be a puppetmaster-style guy who just hides in the shadows. Maybe he facilitates events that nobody else wants, but that further his own ends. Could be anything and I have no doubt in my mind that Sanderson will make it surprising whatever it is.

[Leuthie]

He's currently neither.  His final status depends entirely on the perspective the stories where he is a major player are told.  He doesn't know exactly how his plans will play out for specific individuals in the Cosmere, so he doesn't know whether specific individuals should trust/help him - so he warns them.

His words and actions, so far and based on current perspectives, show good intentions.  However, his actions could all be perfectly selfish and ultimately detrimental.  

I can imagine him being both in different future stories and neither/inconsequential in the ultimate plot.

[nenya740]

4 hours ago, Leuthie said:

He's currently neither.  His final status depends entirely on the perspective the stories where he is a major player are told.  He doesn't know exactly how his plans will play out for specific individuals in the Cosmere, so he doesn't know whether specific individuals should trust/help him - so he warns them.

His words and actions, so far and based on current perspectives, show good intentions.  However, his actions could all be perfectly selfish and ultimately detrimental.  

Agreed.  Our SA characters in particular can’t trust him because he’s playing a long game - a very long game - and the battle for Roshar is one he’s willing to let them loose if it helps him towards his goals; “loose the battle, win the war” sort of idea. 

So far I see too much compassion in Hoid to really see him as a proper villain - see his interactions with young Shallan, Renarin, and Kheni and Cob at the end of OB. But then again this is Branderson: that’s what will make it so painful/ compelling if Hoid turns out to be an antagonist. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by nenya740

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Hoid is just trying to fix the mess he made of the Cosmere when he orchestrated the shattering. He doesn’t like the evil he set loose but is willing to let some people die (or whole planets it seems) in order to see that evil destroyed or contained.

[Argent]

Also, remember that Hoid would not describe himself as a good person

[Fezzik]

6k @Argent, Congrats! 

[Embrisk]

This is a theory that I have.

In a thousand years, a good man can be corrupted by the shard he holds. In the same way, a good man holding a shard taints the shard with a little, tiny portion of his goodness. This isn't enough to change the intent of the shard, but if balanced, (such as harmony,) it makes it easier for the balanced god to do good things.

Hoids role is to oversee the recreation of Adonalsium with shards that have been held by otherwise good people for thousands of years, so that the end result is a god who is a good man who finds it easier to do things for the benefit of people.

[Weltall]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Servillius said:

This is a theory that I have.

In a thousand years, a good man can be corrupted by the shard he holds. In the same way, a good man holding a shard taints the shard with a little, tiny portion of his goodness. This isn't enough to change the intent of the shard, but if balanced, (such as harmony,) it makes it easier for the balanced god to do good things.

It's an interesting idea but unfortunately it's contradicted by Word of Brandon that the influence of Shard on Vessel is strictly one-way

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

source

 

[Embrisk]

Ah well. Another wonderful theory down the drain.

[goody153]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:32 PM, robardin said:

So... Is (one of the ways) for Odium to be defeated still going to result in Roshar's destruction? Is THAT the secret that caused the Recreance?

For some reason this sounds so much more interesting/intriguing possible circumstances for Roshar and Stormlight Archives in general than whatever common bigger scale plan Hoid has(which probably just involves the shards or creation itself).