Non-Original Vessels

[Scion of the Mists]

We got a WoB at the recent Seattle signing that, in addition to Harmony, that are currently being held by someone other than their original Vessel.  Of the Vessels we know about, do we have confirmation that they are all original holders?  

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Questioner[PENDING REVIEW]

Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

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[RShara]

We don't, but I wouldn't read too much into t hat answer. Technically, for instance, Dominion and Devotion aren't held by their original Vessels, because they're Splintered, and no one is holding them.

[Steel Inquisitive]

38 minutes ago, RShara said:

We don't, but I wouldn't read too much into t hat answer. Technically, for instance, Dominion and Devotion aren't held by their original Vessels, because they're Splintered, and no one is holding them.

You just ruined my life..... All those theories screaming as they die

On the other hand, if that wasn't a trick answer, then I think Endowment would be a likely suspect. A shard of giving that gives its power to a new person every millennia or so. 

[Sandra]

The addition "besides Harmony" makes me read something into that

Wouldn't it be funny if Cultivation was held by another vessel, and let's say she died when Honor's vessel died. Romantic tragedy...

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Sandra said:

The addition "besides Harmony" makes me read something into that

Wouldn't it be funny if Cultivation was held by another vessel, and let's say she died when Honor's vessel died. Romantic tragedy...

I doubt it, but that's entirely based on how Hoid spoke of her as if his original acquaintance were still alive and filling that role, and there's no guarantee that he knows all the current events.  Though I could really get behind the idea that her schemes are all about Cultivating new Vessels for both or even all three of them, and that she does intend to Join Tanavast when she's settled matters in the Cosmere. 

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I doubt it, but that's entirely based on how Hoid spoke of her as if his original acquaintance were still alive and filling that role, and there's no guarantee that he knows all the current events.  Though I could really get behind the idea that her schemes are all about Cultivating new Vessels for both or even all three of them, and that she does intend to Join Tanavast when she's settled matters in the Cosmere. 

In addition to how Hoid speaks of her, it would be hard to imagine Cultivation having a new vessel since we know that Honor and Cultivation were lovers and we have a WoB that Cultivation in some ways thinks of the Stormfather in the same way as a certain person. That only makes sense if present-day Cultivation and the Vessel who held the Shard when Tanavast was alive are the same person.

But yeah, cultivating a future Vessel for her Shard seems like something she might do.

3 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

On the other hand, if that wasn't a trick answer, then I think Endowment would be a likely suspect. A shard of giving that gives its power to a new person every millennia or so. 

Alas, the letter that Endowment sends to Hoid in Oathbringer is clearly from someone who knew Hoid before the Shattering. She references some material we know refers to things in Dragonsteel and she calls him Cephandrius, just like Bavadin and Leras do. Otherwise, that would be a pretty cool idea for a Shard that impels its Vessel to endow its power to a new bearer every so often.

[Gavtyven]

5 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Alas, the letter that Endowment sends to Hoid in Oathbringer is clearly from someone who knew Hoid before the Shattering.

Could it be possible that another Yolenite that Hoid knew picked up Endowment? It's also possible it'd be another Shard, maybe the Shard that just wants to hide and Survive? I'd think it'd be a good choice to not be "stuck" to a certain Vessel if you wanted to survive. Narratively it could be interesting, as survival (if that's the actual intent) can be interpreted as hiding but also as taking initiative and taking down your threats before they can take you down. 

It's not an "official" theory, but I'm just thinking out loud. Who knows what Brandon has in store for us in this.

[Ripheus23]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

Technically

The questioner ought to have said, "Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are held by someone but not held by their original Vessel?" Lest Brandarn Sanderdarn, the genie of WoBs, striketh...

[Steel Inquisitive]

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

Alas, the letter that Endowment sends to Hoid in Oathbringer is clearly from someone who knew Hoid before the Shattering. She references some material we know refers to things in Dragonsteel and she calls him Cephandrius, just like Bavadin and Leras do. Otherwise, that would be a pretty cool idea for a Shard that impels its Vessel to endow its power to a new bearer every so often.

Rats! I knew there was a letter but couldn't recall what it said. That kills that. Well.... A case could be made that the vessels pass on their memories as well... But that's starting to stretch it...

I'm super hooked on the concept now tho.....

[Gasper]

Well, another possibility is Dalinar. He is technically bonded to the largest piece of Honor and Odium seemed to recognize him when he opened the perpendicularly. And given the amount of power invested by Honor and Cultivation in Roshar, I find it likely that this might be the Shard he is talking about.

[+Invocation]

19 minutes ago, Gasper said:

Well, another possibility is Dalinar. He is technically bonded to the largest piece of Honor and Odium seemed to recognize him when he opened the perpendicularly. And given the amount of power invested by Honor and Cultivation in Roshar, I find it likely that this might be the Shard he is talking about.

That would be possibility, yeah, I guess.

[Quantus]

I still think the Ire has one, or at least has witnessed one being passed.  They were too prepared when they showed up to capture one in Secret History.  But unless they have some amount of Ambition (still unaccounted for that Investiture, yes?) it would probably be one of the unrevealed ones.

 

 

[Scion of the Mists]

9 hours ago, Gasper said:

Well, another possibility is Dalinar. He is technically bonded to the largest piece of Honor and Odium seemed to recognize him when he opened the perpendicularly. And given the amount of power invested by Honor and Cultivation in Roshar, I find it likely that this might be the Shard he is talking about.

The Stormfather may be the largest piece of Honor, but he's nowhere near a majority of Honor.  Whether or not he temporarily Ascended is a matter of debate, but he is not currently ascended:

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kurvyyn [PENDING REVIEW]

If Dalinar actually brought Honor back together to summon the perpendicularity, and Odium said he Ascended. Dalinar did he actually hold the Shard Honor and is he now considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO! They are really waiting on this one. Let's just say, he is not Honor currently. But of course, you knew that.

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[Weltall]

11 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

A case could be made that the vessels pass on their memories as well... But that's starting to stretch it...

Harmony suggests otherwise. We know from WoB that a Vessel leaves no permanent imprint upon the Shard and Sazed only got a vague notion that his two Shards were once part of somehing much bigger called Adonalsium; There's no inbuilt memory-transfer mechanism. Sazed can figure some things out from the Spiritual Realm but that's a far cry from inheriting the memories of Leras or Ati.

[Steel Inquisitive]

13 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Harmony suggests otherwise. We know from WoB that a Vessel leaves no permanent imprint upon the Shard and Sazed only got a vague notion that his two Shards were once part of somehing much bigger called Adonalsium; There's no inbuilt memory-transfer mechanism. Sazed can figure some things out from the Spiritual Realm but that's a far cry from inheriting the memories of Leras or Ati.

Right. I wasn't talking about shards at large, but that if there was a shard that passes on its power every so often that it would leave its memories with the shard. But again, while plausible, it's a stretch.

[Helwar]

On 11/16/2018 at 6:24 PM, Weltall said:

Harmony suggests otherwise. We know from WoB that a Vessel leaves no permanent imprint upon the Shard and Sazed only got a vague notion that his two Shards were once part of somehing much bigger called Adonalsium; There's no inbuilt memory-transfer mechanism. Sazed can figure some things out from the Spiritual Realm but that's a far cry from inheriting the memories of Leras or Ati.

But Harmony himself knows what Rashek did with the power of Preservation instinctively upon picking it up. He actually writes (or makes appear already written) a book with all his findings. He knew exactly why and how did Rashek alter Scadrial and it's people. That suggests that shards do contain a "log" of what's been done with them and who did it...

[Weltall]

3 hours ago, Helwar said:

But Harmony himself knows what Rashek did with the power of Preservation instinctively upon picking it up. He actually writes (or makes appear already written) a book with all his findings. He knew exactly why and how did Rashek alter Scadrial and it's people. That suggests that shards do contain a "log" of what's been done with them and who did it...

This is more likely to be the result of a Vessel gaining a vastly expanded mind capable of looking into the Spiritual Realm with much greater clarity and a longer-term view than an ordinary human. Thus, Sazed who is now one with all the Connections made by Preservation has an easier time seeing things related to Preservation. However, his knowledge is still limited. Sazed doesn't get anything like Leras' memories (or he'd actually know what Adonalsium is, as opposed to having a vague idea that his powers were once part of something with that name) and even his knowledge of the magic system's he's empowering are imperfect; for example he says that hemalurgy always results in death but we know from WoB that this isn't actually the case.

Another example of this is that Sazed's writing claims that Preservation broke his agreement with Ruin. Sazed is careful to qualify other cases where his terminology isn't really precise (like how Ruin's 'prison' wasn't literally confining him spatially) but in this case he claims the agreement was actually broken. Leras himself tells Kelsier that he did not break the agreement, he just left a loophole that Ruin didn't notice.

[Toaster Retribution]

I think that all the currently known Vessels are original (with the obvious exception of Sazed). Tanavast, Rayse, Edgli, Aona, Skai, Bavadin, Ati, Uli Da and Leras are all mentioned in relation to Frost, Hoid and/or the Shattering. Cultivations holder seems to be original as well, given that Hoid comments on her age. 

[RShara]

What did I tell you?

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Theoretically, if Sel became a Shard...the biggest limiter on Shards is the Vessel's mind, would that be more limiting or less limiting?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

If the Dor were itself to become a Shard combining Devotion and Dominion, and were to pick up a Vessel? Because they're still Shards, they just don't have a Vessel.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So the land couldn't be Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The land itself? Of Arelon or of...?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Of Sel.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The land of Sel would not count as a Vessel. You would say in terminology right now that Dominion and Devotion do not have Vessels in the same way that other Shards do.

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[Quantus]

21 hours ago, Weltall said:

This is more likely to be the result of a Vessel gaining a vastly expanded mind capable of looking into the Spiritual Realm with much greater clarity and a longer-term view than an ordinary human. Thus, Sazed who is now one with all the Connections made by Preservation has an easier time seeing things related to Preservation. However, his knowledge is still limited. Sazed doesn't get anything like Leras' memories (or he'd actually know what Adonalsium is, as opposed to having a vague idea that his powers were once part of something with that name) and even his knowledge of the magic system's he's empowering are imperfect; for example he says that hemalurgy always results in death but we know from WoB that this isn't actually the case.

Another example of this is that Sazed's writing claims that Preservation broke his agreement with Ruin. Sazed is careful to qualify other cases where his terminology isn't really precise (like how Ruin's 'prison' wasn't literally confining him spatially) but in this case he claims the agreement was actually broken. Leras himself tells Kelsier that he did not break the agreement, he just left a loophole that Ruin didn't notice.

I think in general there might be some dangers to using Sazed and Rashek as the examples for two Reasons: "Copperminds" and "Preservation" itself.  The very nature of Preservation is to retain a sense of what was before, so that shard's perspective within the Spiritual Realm is going to be a lot more focused on what came before than others, which as shardic levels is likely enough to gain some tiny amount of awareness of the origins of the Shard (and certainly the ability to peer backwards in Time and find out themselves) and without really getting any "download" of the previous owner.  The other thing is that I would not be at all surprised to find that Rashek kept a lot of that sort of information in Copperminds and that Preservation (and especially Harmony) are able to brute force their way into copperminds, similar to how you can brute force your way past the Command phrases.

All that to say that there are several plausible ways for Sazed to have gained the knowledge he has that wouldnt imply all Shards pass suck knoweldge along by default.  Of course, I assume all shards could take willful steps to preserve something and pass it along, like Tanavast if nothing else.

 

[John Flamesinger]

On 11/16/2018 at 6:12 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

The Stormfather may be the largest piece of Honor, but he's nowhere near a majority of Honor.  Whether or not he temporarily Ascended is a matter of debate, but he is not currently ascended:

That's true, but at the end of Oathbringer, Dalinar asks Navini to close the curtains because "They're distracting me from the other light." I take this to mean that Dalinar might not be fully Ascended, but that he is partially Ascended. He can see the Spiritual Realm, I think. (And no, I'm not Sazed/Harmony).

[Helwar]

10 hours ago, John Flamesinger said:

That's true, but at the end of Oathbringer, Dalinar asks Navini to close the curtains because "They're distracting me from the other light." I take this to mean that Dalinar might not be fully Ascended, but that he is partially Ascended. He can see the Spiritual Realm, I think. (And no, I'm not Sazed/Harmony).

I thought that meant he was seeing into Shadesmar like all the other Radiants have done. It's always described with a small, distant sun, and I thought he meant that.

[John Flamesinger]

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:13 PM, Helwar said:

I thought that meant he was seeing into Shadesmar like all the other Radiants have done. It's always described with a small, distant sun, and I thought he meant that.

I never thought of that... Maybe he is looking into Shadesmar. I don't know. I think my theory makes more sense, but I'm biased.