LiquidBlue

Odium+Ambition

10 posts in this topic

I've been think about counterfactual shard combinations. How things might be if the story takes a different direction.

Odium+Ambition seems like a really dangerous combination. They are not at cross purposes, so there is not the tendency towards inaction that Harmony experiences. Of all the known shards, it seems like this would be the one that would dilute Odium's intent the least. (So as an aside, maybe Rayse' disinclination to pick up other shards isn't just his own desire, but is also an expression of odium's antipathy of other shards.)

Anyway, back to Odium+Ambition, I was trying to think of a single other shard that if added to these 2 would make the combination less malign towards the rest of the cosmere.

Ruin: This would be a very, very bad addition.

Preservation: I think that this is also a bad combination. You end up with a shard that hates changes and is highly motivated to make sure it never happens. This is a shard that probably concludes that life shouldn't exist.

Dominion: This would be a bad addition.

Devotion: Maybe a good addition. Devotion seems like the most diametrically opposed shard to odium, so it should temper the shard, and maybe lead it to inaction.

Endowment: Maybe a good addition. This is also a somewhat opposed shard to odium, so it might temper the shard.

Honor: Not a good addition. Honor is how you achieve your ends, but says nothing about what those ends are. Adding this shard just adds to the shard's power.

Cultivation: Maybe a good addition. Takes the long view and encourages growth.

 

What do you think?

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20 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Devotion: Maybe a good addition. Devotion seems like the most diametrically opposed shard to odium, so it should temper the shard, and maybe lead it to inaction.

Unless the vessel becomes devoted to hating things...

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18 minutes ago, I think I am here. said:

Unless the vessel becomes devoted to hating things...

Good point. I struggled a bit on this one. It is hard to really know how the intent would manifest.

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Ill Play:

 

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

 

Ruin: This would be a very, very bad addition.

 

Maybe, though adding such an innate Destructive Drive on top of Divine Anger might make him a lot less efficient and/or controlled, and almost certainly reduce his available options and/or behaviors.

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Preservation: I think that this is also a bad combination. You end up with a shard that hates changes and is highly motivated to make sure it never happens. This is a shard that probably concludes that life shouldn't exist.

Concur

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Dominion: This would be a bad addition.

Acutally, this might help, as it would make him far more prone to settle on and/or Invest in his own Shardworld, as opposed to his current untainted goal of Seek and Destroy.  I dont think he'd be capable of being as blase as he currently is about abandoning Roshar and ripping his essence from it so destructively.

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Devotion: Maybe a good addition. Devotion seems like the most diametrically opposed shard to odium, so it should temper the shard, and maybe lead it to inaction.

Best currecnt candidate for a polar balance as I see them, so this might get him to a Harmony-like inability to act.  But it will be equally as fragile Id expect.

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Endowment: Maybe a good addition. This is also a somewhat opposed shard to odium, so it might temper the shard.

I dunno, I feel like this shard is the most compatible with ANY of the others, as it is more base Augmentation, so it wouldnt have much in the way of specific conflict with the desires of the others. It is specifically Augmentation of Others, so it would mostly make him more prone to Investing in a world similar to Dominion (Investing in the People rather than the Place).

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Honor: Not a good addition. Honor is how you achieve your ends, but says nothing about what those ends are. Adding this shard just adds to the shard's power.

I dont know about that, Honor as interpreted is mostly about Rules which if nothing else would make the conflicts more organized.  But there's strong evidence that the Honor shard can be re-interpreted as Unity, which is another that might fundamentally opposed, or at least temper, Rayse's interpretation of Odium

18 minutes ago, LiquidBlue said:

Cultivation: Maybe a good addition. Takes the long view and encourages growth.

 

Oh dear god NO.  Cultivation is IMO the worst possible addition to Odium. She encourages Development but has no innate drive to protection, nurturing, or anything like that.  You'd be taking Ultimate Hatred and adding Ultimate Mastermind Planning: the result would be unstoppable.  Setting aside the probably new MO of cultivating World-ending Plagues, you be taking the God of Hatred and making them also the God of Foresight and Careful Planning.  Good luck opposing THAT...

 

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35 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Acutally, this might help, as it would make him far more prone to settle on and/or Invest in his own Shardworld, as opposed to his current untainted goal of Seek and Destroy.  I dont think he'd be capable of being as blase as he currently is about abandoning Roshar and ripping his essence from it so destructively.

Dominion, combined with Odium and Ambition would probably form something like Tyranny, or a shard that's very much inclined to tyranny.

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38 minutes ago, Gavtyven said:

Dominion, combined with Odium and Ambition would probably form something like Tyranny, or a shard that's very much inclined to tyranny.

Oof.  Didnt consider that but I think if you combined Dominion with Ambition you'd get something very expansionist, Imperialism or Manifest Destiny: The Shard.  Add Odium on to of that and I think it would just become more innately antagonistic, especially toward the concurred. 

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Ambium, Ruidium, Odervation, Ovotion, Odinion, Endodium, Odivation, Odonomy, Honodium... They all sound terrible ;)

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If you want more ideas, look here:

Especially look into the spreadsheet ;)

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5 hours ago, Quantus said:

Ill Play:

Thanks, I really appreciate your contribution

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

[Re: Odium+Ambition+Ruin] Maybe, though adding such an innate Destructive Drive on top of Divine Anger might make him a lot less efficient and/or controlled, and almost certainly reduce his available options and/or behaviors.

I like this thought. I was really looking at it through the lenses of blunting or tempering the shard's intent. You are suggesting to also look at what could make him a less effective threat. I can see where you are going with this, but Ati/Ruin could play the very long game. He isn't just about destruction, but also about inevitable decay and entropy. I think that adding Ruin to the mix wouldn't be enough to destroy his careful control and planning (unless the combination of Ruin+Ambition, or Ruin+Odium, is just much more innately out of control.)

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

[Re: Dominion+Odium+Ambition] Actually, this might help, as it would make him far more prone to settle on and/or Invest in his own Shardworld, as opposed to his current untainted goal of Seek and Destroy.  I dont think he'd be capable of being as blase as he currently is about abandoning Roshar and ripping his essence from it so destructively.

 

4 hours ago, Gavtyven said:

Dominion, combined with Odium and Ambition would probably form something like Tyranny, or a shard that's very much inclined to tyranny.

This is a good point. Adding Dominion to Odium+Ambition isn't going to turn it to a benevolent or benign intent, but it might make it less innately dangerous. I think Tyranny is a good description, and the point is, the shard is going to want to have something to rule over.

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

[Re: Cultivation+Odium+Ambition] Oh dear god NO.  Cultivation is IMO the worst possible addition to Odium. She encourages Development but has no innate drive to protection, nurturing, or anything like that.  You'd be taking Ultimate Hatred and adding Ultimate Mastermind Planning: the result would be unstoppable.  Setting aside the probably new MO of cultivating World-ending Plagues, you be taking the God of Hatred and making them also the God of Foresight and Careful Planning.  Good luck opposing THAT...

I may have underestimated things in the original post, but I'm not sure that it is quite that bad. I don't think that odium has any particular issue with non-shadic beings. He doesn't specifically want to destroy them. His part in the desolations and support of the fused seems more likely a reaction to his imprisonment to Roshar. Adding cultivation to mix certainly would make the shard a more dangerous enemy, but it wouldn't necessarily make it into one that wants to end worlds. I think it more likely that it would want to cultivate hatred on a mass scale. There isn't much hatred (or passion) if there isn't anyone around to feel it.

 

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

If you want more ideas, look here:

Especially look into the spreadsheet ;)

Thanks, it is a really nice resource. I'm looking at the odium+, and ambition+ suggestions now. Unfortunately, there aren't any ambition triple shard suggestions yet.

 

FYI, the context of this speculation was that I was thinking about the situation where Ambition is largely reconstituted and sneaks into Roshar during the chaos of the Stormlight Archive and finds an opportunity to kill Rayse and take up Odium. I was wondering what the vessel could do if they wished to avoid becoming an even bigger threat to the cosmere than Odium was. Ambition+ isn't going to splinter away most of their power or self-shatter, so I thought the most obvious solution would be to seek out another shard to combine with the 2. 

 

Edit: Autonomy thoughts.

I left autonomy out of the original post. This was unintentional.


I think that adding autonomy might be a bad thing. Ambition+autonomy seems like a good combination for a shard that thinks that they should be the only shard that exists. Mixing Odium into the mix would seem to only increase the antagonism the shard would have for the other shards. A triple shard would also have the power to really threaten the others.

Edited by LiquidBlue
Added Autonomy thoughts
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This is a great post.  I agree with the thought that adding ruin to the mix would be bad, because ruin isn't just about blind destruction.

4 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

but Ati/Ruin could play the very long game. He isn't just about destruction, but also about inevitable decay and entropy. I think that adding Ruin to the mix wouldn't be enough to destroy his careful control and planning (unless the combination of Ruin+Ambition, or Ruin+Odium, is just much more innately out of control.)

Most definitely^

I think adding dominion to it would make it try to protect it's shardworld.  Think about it, none of those shards have any inclination towards destruction.  Two of them, however, have an inclination towards power.  Add Odium to the mix, and you get an evil dictator.

I feel like cultivation is most oriented towards checks and balances.  After all, in nature, everything has checks and balances, and with the whole old magic thing, I'm inclined to believe this even more.  I get the feeling that cultivation came to roshar to act as a mediator to Odium and Honor.  So adding cultivation to the mix would just make the entire shard compelled to furthering the goals of it's people.  One is devoted to power, one is devoted to growth, and one is devoted to hate.  They build an evil army, then take over the cosmere. 

Also, thoughts on honor:  Acting with honor just means that you act on a specific code of self-set morals.  Also some inclination to fairness.  I actually think honor would make odium more focused to achieve his ends.  However, it also might temper odium, as he'll be limited to what kinds of things he'll be able to do, in the face of morals.  I might even go so far as to say that it would make odium a protecter.  Possibly fill him with hate for enemies of his people.  Wait... about face!  His people are the voidbringers, honor will just make him more focused to take down the rosharans.

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