"Real Life" Allomancy or How the second Trilogy might work

[Pathfinder]

So I want to say upfront, I don't know nor fully understand genetics. All I am about to say is literally based on googling and logical deductions extending from that information. It sounds like to me, that allomancy and feruchemy are recessive traits given that they can skip a generation. Recessive genes are MUCH harder to breed out of a population than dominant as they can remain "hidden" through generations. I believe this was manifested when the Lord Ruler tried to breed feruchemy out of the terris men. So in my opinion, based on these thoughts, in a society now open and accepting of allomancy and feruchemy (as of the AoL time), there would be an increase in intermingling which would increase the chance of a recessive gene manifesting. Over a long enough time line this could result in greater and greater portions of the population becoming mistings and maybe even manifesting mistborn traits. So assuming anything I have said is correct, and not a complete misunderstanding of basic genetics, it would be very possible that by the time of the second mistborn trilogy (not referring to the Alloy of Law trilogy, I mean the "present day" trilogy), that a significant portion of the population would be mistings/ferrings. If anyone has a degree in genetics or is more knowledgeable please ring in because I would be very interested to learn more about the potential genetic consequences of allomancy/feruchemy. 

Edited May 13, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Swimmingly]

Well, it's definetly a survival trait. So long as Hemalurgy isn't a widely practice's thing as well. However, I'm not sure it actually works like real world genetics, because, you know, magic.

[Pathfinder]

Well, it's definetly a survival trait. So long as Hemalurgy isn't a widely practice's thing as well. However, I'm not sure it actually works like real world genetics, because, you know, magic.

Lol true it is magic, but isn't referred to as literally spiritual DNA? Strafe is a tineye misting, and has numerous mistresses resulting in Elend with no abilities, a few mistings, and one mistborn. That would support the idea of recessive genes. That Elend's mother did not have the recessive gene, some of the mistresses did have one allele, and Zane's mother might have had both Alleles. Again VERY rudimentary understanding here, so I could be completely butchering the terminology.  

[king of nowhere]

clearly allomancy and feruchemy are much more complex than dominant/recessive genes. they are likely the result of several genes, just like height is (you don't just have a gene for tall or short). Also, we're dealing with spiritual dna here, which may have different rules of passing out.

Well, it HAS different rules of passing out, because allomancy got diluted from passing to the original mistborns to the later ones, while genes don't work that way.

[Pathfinder]

At least on some level it seems sDNA works like regular DNA so trying to understand it by extension is possible. I have a quote below of Brandon confirming this with the link to the page:

 

"

CHAOS

Since the dawn of Scadrial, why was Feruchemy isolated in a single distinct population in the world, namely the Terrismen? Allomancy, while rare within the population of Scadrial, at least was not isolated to one population, it was spread evenly, it seems. What is special about the Terrismen that only they get the power of Feruchemy? Does it have something to do with the previous Ascensions before Rashek, with the guardian keeping the power for a time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's all in the spiritual DNA, which is passed on like normal DNA. However, they are a separate people. They've kept themselves isolated, similar to the jews in our world. When I asked he said there have been some Feruchemical-mistings in the past, but they are very rare."

 

emphasis mine. The link is shown below:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#6

 

I also found another quote from another site and different person (not WoB) regarding the different rules:

 

"In Hero of Ages, Sazed's notes explain that before the rise of the Lord Ruler, mistings existed, but not mistborns. The first mistborns were created by the Lord Ruler by ingesting pieces of Preservation's body. Somehow, this power was transferable through lineage (genetics are not necessarily involved) and, as a thousand years passed, its strength decreased.

The natural state of allomancers seems to be that of the simple misting, having only one power. This seems to be how Preservation wanted it. The Lord Ruler changed that, however, and the noble families, having more of Preservation's power through lineage, have better chances to produce mistings, the natural occurence of allomancy. Sometimes, though, because of this meddling, Preservation's power is more concentrated in an individual, giving them the power of a mistborn."

 

The link to that is shown below:

 

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/20627/how-do-the-inheritance-of-allomantic-powers-work

 

edit: the way I interpret the above explanation is like a pool of pink water that has pink water flowing in and pink water flowing out. The beads of lerasium is like someone taking an eye dropper of pure red dye, and putting a few droplets in the pool. You get concentrated red for a time, till that becomes diffused, and you go back to having pink water. The pink water being mistings, and the red being mistborn that is. 

 

How do genes regarding height function? I do agree with you, I would imagine it is more complex than dominant/recessive, but given the extent of my knowledge in the field, it was the best application I could perscribe. Could you elaborate on your height example?

Edited May 13, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Pathfinder]

Oh, and separate thought, hence the double post. People have been posting about allomantic, feruchemical, and hemalurgic machines. I assumed you all were referring to people with the abilities powering them (example brass feruchemist, sitting in vat of water, using brass to make it boil creating steam to fuel a power plant), but from the sounds of it, you are referring to machines separate from the allomancer/feruchemist. How does this work? It is the first time I have heard of it. Thanks!

[Left]

Since TLR took the power at the Well of Ascenension and moved Scadrial closer to the sun the equatorial area became incredibly dangerous. So during the history of the Final Empire the northern and southern halves of the world have been seperated. The Southern continent has way fewer Allomancers/Feruchemists, but they have figured out how to make machines that emulate those powers. Brandon let slip that you can infuse spikes using the mists, so it is my assumption that the machines are powered using the spikes.

[WeiryWriter]

Oh, and separate thought, hence the double post. People have been posting about allomantic, feruchemical, and hemalurgic machines. I assumed you all were referring to people with the abilities powering them (example brass feruchemist, sitting in vat of water, using brass to make it boil creating steam to fuel a power plant), but from the sounds of it, you are referring to machines separate from the allomancer/feruchemist. How does this work? It is the first time I have heard of it. Thanks!

 

We have absolutely no idea how they work.  All Brandon has said is that the Southern Peoples access the Metallic Arts mechanically/technologically instead of genetically:

 

Nepene

You've said you want to write a book set in the southern continent. I did enjoy The Emperor's Soul a lot, so I am curious about you writing that future book. How do they use magic differently, and why should we be excited about reading a book set there?

Brandon Sanderson

The southern continent is where people have discovered how to harness the metallurgic arts in a more mechanical method. (I've hinted several places that this is possible. I've been holding off doing it until we go here.)

Nepene

Ooh, cool, ferugolems? Do you have any hints for us where we should look for these hints of how you can use it in a mechanical fashion? I haven't reread the Mistborn books in a while.

Brandon Sanderson

The hints are things I've said in interviews, not so much in the stories. (Sorry for not being clear about this.)

Chaos2651

About the southern continent, would it be possible for other Scadrians to discover this method of using the Metallic Arts, or is it unique to the southern Scadrians?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology-based rather than genetics based.

 

(source)

 

Chaos has a theory about this that I espouse.

[Pathfinder]

Oh wow, I had no idea about any of this. Thank you both, and this is why I love this forum! lol. So then that leads to the question, would an human allomancer/feruchemist using their abilities interfere with an allomantic/feruchemal machine? Like if you hold a magnet to a computer? I do like how Chaos uses fabrials as templates to try and figure out how allomantic/feruchemal machines work. We have yet to see radiants actively using fabrials (except for Nale the herald), so I wonder how would a healing fabral interact with an edgedancer for instance? 

[king of nowhere]

How do genes regarding height function? I do agree with you, I would imagine it is more complex than dominant/recessive, but given the extent of my knowledge in the field, it was the best application I could perscribe. Could you elaborate on your height example?

 

Well, I'm not a great expert in that specific field, but from what I know there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of genes that, among other things, will change your height, and they also interferes with each other and environmental considerations. Say, several genes will each make you a couple cm taller, and you can have all of those, or none, or something in between; another gene maybe will make you taller if you live in a cold climate but shorter in a hot climate, another will make you taller if you have another specific and apparently unrelated gene, another will make you grow more during adolescence if you eat certain kind of food... I don't think anyone has the complete map of that. And then much of it will depend on how much you eat as a kid.

 

I figure allomancy and other magics that are somewhat genetical but not predictable would work in a similar way. maybe there are 20 genes associated with allomancy and you need at least 15 to get a power. maybe you need some specific combination.

[Pathfinder]

Thank you for the additional information king of nowhere. I still disagree that based on that premise alone and the idea that it is magic is enough to imply allomancy/feruchemy could not be prevalent in a modern version of Scadrial's society. However, yes we all could go back and forth as to whether or not a significant portion of the population end up having these abilities, but this wasn't what the core of this thread I had hoped would be. I kind of wanted it to be more a "what if" than a "what its not". Basically focus on what modern day would be like with allomancy/feruchemy, and if it ends up giving us ideas what the new trilogy might have, all the better. So in an effort to keep this thread going in innovation, if you are of the camp that allomancy/feruchemy is a small percentage, then feel free to ring in on how you feel it would affect the society and manifest. If you are of the camp that allomancy/feruchemy would be a large percentage, then feel free to ring in on how you feel it would affect society and manifest. Since I am of the camp it will be a large percentage, I came up with a few more fun ideas below:

 

1. Building on the sports ideas, what if there are coinshot/lurcher leagues? Basically coinshots stand in front of a anchor, ref holds up a coin between them, then yells "begin!" and they both try to push the coin. Pugilism would go from a bunch of rounds to possibly countless. Or with the inclusion of aluminum burners (i forget the names but the ones that can eliminate all your metal reserves), prior to a bout, they burn away all metals. The  participators are then each given a vial of one metal in a certain amount, and then it is up to them how they burn that amount. Some fighters may not burn any pewter till a decisive punch at the end of the match at which point they flare it. Others might burn it low the whole match to help them have a bit extra oomph to work with throughout. Electrum chess players could become all the rage for the same idea. Choosing when to burn it, and how much to anticipate your opponent. 

 

2. Themed bars/inns. The Coinshot's Corner. Lurcher's Lane. The Thug's Tea Time. Could segregation pop up at some point? Allomancers only. Only norms allowed. In warbreaker, people without breath are called dunns, I forget what are people without allomantic abilities called? Was there ever a name for them?

 

3. Soothers and Rioters a part of every theater troop to help plays get that extra hit to the heart.

 

I had more but I am blanking on them at the moment. Looking forward to hearing others thoughts!

[signspace13]

Aluminum never becomes a common metal like it is for us today, instead the methods to make it are always kept secret meaning it retains a value greater than gold.

 

This seems plausible basically because if aluminum was everywhere allomancers would be in trouble, if aluminum was as plentiful as it is today than every gun in scadrial would be loaded with aluminum ammunition, and this would not be good, it would mean the main combat uses for coinshots and lurchers become useless, so i see a main S.W.A.T team of guys carrying aluminum ammo, simply because they will probably be made to fight mistings (modern day hazekillers?).

 

How would this affect the modern world? i think it would have quite an impact we wood need to use other metals or find workarounds. Remember everyone in this world would believe that Aluminum is some unobtainable metal, so no one would be trying to make it.

[Swimmingly]

In Warbreaker, the majority of the population seems to have Breath. The drabs are named for being that - drab, without breath. Only in Allomantic circles would there be names for people without. In addition, gold, duralumin, and aluminum are more or less useless to the common person, the first being prohibitably expensive as well as impractical and the last two being absolutely useless in a misting for purposes other than getting 'em spiked out of you. These ones would be almost mocked for their efforts.

And Aluminum is not going to be prohibitably expensive by the time the modern trilogy rolls around. It's even more useful on Scadrial then on Earth, and the entire society has an almost religious fascination with metal. Aluminum is by no means expensive today, compared with gold for instance.

[Pathfinder]

Well if aluminum is treated the way it is on earth, then it would be a very common metal. What would be interesting is if a group (whether allomancers or not), ended up doing to aluminum what De Beers did to diamonds. Diamonds are very common, but they rigged the market in order to make millions. Would also be interesting to see aluminum regarded in the same light as diamonds. For the upperclass, aluminum engagement rings and wedding bands. "Show the special lady in your life, the timelessness of your love with aluminum. Rust proof, and allomantic proof, just like your devotion."

[Cstryon]

I agree with parts of the two posts above me, but here's how I see it. Aluminum can be abundant, but would be very expensive. Pretty much everyone wanting an edge against the sneaky mistings using there powers to gain over others, will be buying and hording aluminum. However if the aluminum isn't allomantically pure enough, would it still be inert? Would it be all "aluminum" that is expensive, or would it just be the aluminum made pure enough?

Edited May 15, 2014 by Cstryon

[PorridgeBrick]

"Show the special lady in your life, the timelessness of your love with aluminum. Rust proof, and allomantic proof, just like your devotion."

With how easily aluminum breaks, I'm not sure that's the ideal symbol for a good marriage. (Then again, we use gold rings, which are hardly better).

[Pathfinder]

With how easily aluminum breaks, I'm not sure that's the ideal symbol for a good marriage. (Then again, we use gold rings, which are hardly better).

 

Maybe its on purpose so they can charge an arm and a leg for "repair" lol. Just had another idea! Symbols of their legal system be cast in aluminum, or using the symbol for aluminum itself. So for instance instead of the statue of justice with the scales, either have that made of aluminum, made to LOOK like its made of aluminum or have the allomantic symbol of aluminum outside every court to symbolize the law's "incorruptability" (I know cynically the law is FAR from uncorruptable, but we still have our symbols after all). 

[Pathfinder]

I know this is thread necroing AND  double post, but I just had to write this thought down. Steel compounders could be paid to run on treadmills that produce electricity for cities. Hows THAT for green energy? lol

[Moogle]

Since the thread was necro'd...

 

Well if aluminum is treated the way it is on earth, then it would be a very common metal. What would be interesting is if a group (whether allomancers or not), ended up doing to aluminum what De Beers did to diamonds. Diamonds are very common, but they rigged the market in order to make millions. Would also be interesting to see aluminum regarded in the same light as diamonds. For the upperclass, aluminum engagement rings and wedding bands. "Show the special lady in your life, the timelessness of your love with aluminum. Rust proof, and allomantic proof, just like your devotion."

 

The situation that lets De Beers hoard diamonds wouldn't apply to aluminum. For one, we can produce diamonds in the lab that are better and cheaper, but this has a social stigma to it. "Natural" diamonds are perceived as being better. Aluminum, however, is not found naturally - it has to be manufactured (bauxite + electrodes as I recall being the cheapest known way).

 

The expensive sort of diamonds have no real utility to most people (wearing a diamond is done as a sign of status/aesthetic). Aluminum, however, has actual utility, since everyone would want aluminum for its Allomancy-blocking properties, rather than as a sign of status.

 

So, I fully expect aluminum to be very common and cheap on Scadrial. Rioters/Soothers: time to be sad. Of course, this could lead into situations where Rioters/Soothers are used in situations where you can get your opponents without any clothes on. Sordid spy novels would probably be a well-selling genre.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Moogle

[Cstryon]

I think, even though aluminum is common, it wouldn't be cheap considering how more useful it would be on Scadrial. Law Enforcement for allomancy related crimes, shielding from emotional allomancy, public safety regarding coinshots and lurchers flying around. I could see it becoming a controlled material, or even companies getting monopolies on it.

[Pathfinder]

I am with Cstryon on it becoming a controlled material/monopolized. I would hazard the restrictions would even be greater than diamonds BECAUSE of how useful it is. Admittedly this is a rather cynical view of life, but if something bestows power, there will always be those seeking to hold it for themselves, and themselves alone. Prime example being the Lord Ruler and compounding. I could put it even further that, if as the Set (this is hypothetical since what their goal is has not be explicitly stated) they wish to breed a mistborn, then it would also stand to reason they would want to be in control of the one substance that said mistborn cannot affect. Thereby you make sure your mistborn is effective against everyone else, but ineffective against you. 

[Kobold King]

I know this is thread necroing AND  double post, but I just had to write this thought down. Steel compounders could be paid to run on treadmills that produce electricity for cities. Hows THAT for green energy? lol

 

Brass Compounders could do the same thing. Really, Compounding produces energy practically out of nowhere. The only question is, which energy outlet can be harvested with the most efficiency?

[Pathfinder]

That is an excellent point. So assuming the brass compounders sit in a vat of water, which they boil into steam which turns a turbine for electricity (is that what you were going for?), vs steel compounders running on a treadmill, vs pewter compounded turning a giant crank. Please tell me there is an engineer out there that could calculate this lolol. 

[Kobold King]

That is an excellent point. So assuming the brass compounders sit in a vat of water, which they boil into steam which turns a turbine for electricity (is that what you were going for?), vs steel compounders running on a treadmill, vs pewter compounded turning a giant crank. Please tell me there is an engineer out there that could calculate this lolol. 

 

Something like that, yeah.

 

Hmm. What if you exposed a Gold Compounder to a new virus? Would his body quickly develop antibodies to combat the infection? Could you use the antibodies from a Gold Compounder to create vaccines?

[Pathfinder]

And that is another excellent point. Wow Scadrial really lost out in Miles Hundred lives. He could have SAVED a hundred lives, instead of preserving only his own and taking others. 

 

Oh wow I thought of a kinda twisted use for cadnium bubbles. Have them as back ups for emergencies. For instance if a building catches fire, or a gunpowder store room is about to explode, send a runner to get help, then burn cadnium. It will mean you might die as it is normal time for you, but it could result in firefighters and response teams getting there that much sooner and preventing the fire/explosion from getting out of hand. Oh! oh! they could be part of every bomb squad! Bomb ticking down, set up a cadnium bubble, evacuate the surrounding area, and then disarm it.