Magic System/Shard Correlations

[TheEdgedancer]

Sorry for the semi-misleading topic name, but, I've been confused by magic systems in Roshar. As far as I know, magic systems are a natural outgrowth in a world of a Shard's Investiture being well, Invested in the way it is, it's influences with other types of Investiture, etc. Surgebinding, I believe has been confirmed to come from both Honor and Cultivation. Do bi-Shardic magic systems draw an equal amount of influence from both Shards, as I assumed? If so, why does Surgebinding seem to be more of Honor? If Voidbinding is solely from Odium, and there is a 'Cultivationbinding' solely from Cultivation, why doesn't Honor have his own, separate magic system? I'd appreciate it is someone would help me out if they know the answer, or if not, ask Brandon at an event. (I can't make any of the upcoming ones, as I live on the other side of the U.S.)

[Ixthos]

This alludes to a few other Cosmere stories, namely Mistborn and Elantris, and White Sand:

Spoiler

Brandon has said that - with regards to the metallic arts from Mistborn - that a lot of the rules the characters think apply to the systems are not necessarily accurate, just what seems to be the case. This probably applies to other systems as well. It could be that how a system forms might not be fully consistent, and might depend on the world, as Sel seems to have one system even though there is more than one shard present, though that situation is rather complicated, and White Sand might have one system or it might have several, and there is a single shard present. 

I think, and I think this is also what the general consensus is, but I could be mistaken on this, that the following arrangement relates to Roshar:

• Surgebinding - Honour and Cultivation 
  • adhering to oaths and cultivating oneself (edit: and the spren) to make more oaths
• Fabrials - Cultivation and Odium
  • trapping spren for an effect, feeding it stormlight to produce an effect
• Voidbinding - Odium and Honour
  • unknown, but alludes to some form of bonding, so possibly Honour

Basically, I think that - unless there are more hidden systems, such as something relating to the Old Magic - each system on Roshar is based on two shards.

 

Edit: added to explanation of cultivation in surgebinding

Edited November 3, 2018 by Ixthos

[Calderis]

I've gone off about this before... But I don't think you can use Mistborn as a model for the way magic systems develop, because Scadrial was built by its shards and is a blank slate. 

A new shard coming to Scadrial would, in my mind, insert its metal into the Metallic Arts and add an effect into them without creating a "new magic system." I think any shard coming to a world with an already existing magic system will expand upon them. There are some caveats to this, and I'll explain. 

I think Roshar's magic center around bonds and the surges. This, by necessity, typically involves the spren, which are in large part Cultivation. I think this is why Honor and Cultivation were drawn to Roshar in the first place. 

So as it stands, I think that Surgebinding, the manipulation of the surges in the way we are used to is "Honor's system" not because of the spren, but because of the Honorblades. Honor created them of his own accord and tapped into that specific usage of the surges. 

The spren themselves are a mixture of Cultivation and Honor, and they mimicked what honor created. So the primary usage of Honor's system isn't the magic he intended but a hac by the spren themselves, and their nature containing Cultivation created the mix that we see. 

Cultivation magic system, in my mind, is Fabrials. It is an expansion of the natural system of gemhearts and spren bonds that the natural Fauna of Roshar, including the singers, utilize. It works by harnessing spren in much the same way as you would harness an animal. This analogy is even made in OB by Taravangian. 

Void binding.... Well we don't really know anything about it yet, but we do know that it typically involves the unmade somehow. 

Quote

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

source

And to reiterate a point I've made many times, I don't think the fused are using it. I think they're using one system, the natural favrial system of the singer gemhearts, to hack into surgrbinding. 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Calderis

[TheEdgedancer]

As a reply to Ixthos, Sel has more than one system and, I'm not sure fabrials is a magic system...but rather another, 'hack' of Surgebinding. Hm, interesting theory?

As a reply to Calderis, hmm, I never really thought about Surgebinding that way, and I didn't say that the Fused were Voidbinding. Though, I think it should be confirmed before we make any assumptions. Uless it's stated in the text or a WoB, we don't actually know that what the fused are doing isn't related to the Unmade, but I digress.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, TheEdgedancer said:

As a reply to Calderis, hmm, I never really thought about Surgebinding that way, and I didn't say that the Fused were Voidbinding. Though, I think it should be confirmed before we make any assumptions. Uless it's stated in the text or a WoB, we don't actually know that what the fused are doing isn't related to the Unmade, but I digress.

If you'll look over the thread I linked, I think I found it on more than just an assumption. 

[Kramerfarve]

Personally I thought that most magic systems predate the shattering, and that shards were drawn to some rather than others by their intents. Scadrial is a definite exception, in that the shards created the planet itself so they obviously created systems according to their own intent. The belief however that systems predate shardic intervention is well founded considering we have already seen a planet with a natural investiture pool (sixth of the dusk), know that spren predate the shattering, know the parish are natives of roshar, and they together can access the surges.

[TheEdgedancer]

Ah, but magic systems changed after the Shattering. I imagine they were probably slightly similar, but it seems they magic systems usually now naturally derive from the Investiture/Intent of one to two Shards (like AonDor form Devotion on Sel)

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, TheEdgedancer said:

Ah, but magic systems changed after the Shattering. I imagine they were probably slightly similar, but it seems they magic systems usually now naturally derive from the Investiture/Intent of one to two Shards (like AonDor form Devotion on Sel)

FYI Sel only has one magic system with regional variations, all of them draw on the Dor and consequently are a combination of Devotion and Dominion. There's no 'regional' difference in the Dor's Investiture. Brandon's even mentioned that the programming-esque nature of Selish magic is a combination of the power being contained in the Cognitive Realm, the personalities of the Vessels and Sel's focus. The last of these is not something the Shards have control over.

The nature of a given Shard influences how you become Initiated into a magic system but they don't really have any effect on what you can do with the magic after that point. If Honor and Cultivation had settled on Sel instead, the magic would still likely be form-based and do similar things, but you'd get access to it via oaths/cultivation rather than expressing some variety of devotion/domination.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Weltall