Dalinar restoring the Honorblades

[Ciridae]

The idea is pretty simple. Honorblades used to be directly fueled by Honor, making it irrelevant that they Stormlight consumption was inefficient and allowing the Heralds to use the surges in a far more powerful manner. Could Dalinar directly fuel the Honorblades again? I don't think this is outside of reason, they were especially designed to function this way after all, and we've seen Dalinar being able to act as, or on behalf of Honor several times.

Right now they are inferior to what Radiants are capable of, they don't grant instinctual familiarity with the surges and are inefficient in their stormlight consumption. But if Dalinar managed to hook them up with unlimited investiture, they'd be good for a lot more than turning someone into a weak radiant. The biggest problem I see is that Dalinar has to figure out how to do it, and he has to somehow get his hands on an Honorblade again. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Ciridae

[Calderis]

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but considering the fact that charging just Kaladin left him exhausted, I think it's probably impractical. 

[Ciridae]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but considering the fact that charging just Kaladin left him exhausted, I think it's probably impractical. 

I thought about that too, but I think the difference is that the Honorblades were created as a means of channeling Honor directly. When Dalianar charges Kaladin, he's doing what the Honorblades are meant to do. They are meant to be a conduit for Honor's investiture in the spiritual realm to someone who can utilize that Investiture. The Honorblades were specifically built for that task, Dalinar wasn't. 

I'm assuming that it wouldn't take a constant effort on his part to make the Honorblades be able to draw upon investiture. I'm thinking he has to reconnect them to whatever source of investiture he tapped into when he charged Kaladin and they will resume doing what they were built to do. 

[StormblessedSurvivor]

I assume that if Dalinar could, then, because the Shard of Honor has been Splintered, the Honorblades may be less powerful.

[Argent]

I think I am with Cal on this one. Honorblades are a... wire to the reservoir of power in the Spiritual Realm, and anyone who wields them can tap into that power at will. What I think Dalinar is doing is building his own wire whenever he wants, and then plugging it into someone else (though he could probably charge himself too). I think it is this act of holding the door open that's exhausting to him. He could probably do the same for an Honorblade, but I don't see why it would be any less tiring.

[+Child of Hodor]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but considering the fact that charging just Kaladin left him exhausted, I think it's probably impractical. 

2 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I thought about that too, but I think the difference is that the Honorblades were created as a means of channeling Honor directly. When Dalianar charges Kaladin, he's doing what the Honorblades are meant to do. They are meant to be a conduit for Honor's investiture in the spiritual realm to someone who can utilize that Investiture. The Honorblades were specifically built for that task, Dalinar wasn't. 

I'm assuming that it wouldn't take a constant effort on his part to make the Honorblades be able to draw upon investiture. I'm thinking he has to reconnect them to whatever source of investiture he tapped into when he charged Kaladin and they will resume doing what they were built to do. 

2 hours ago, Argent said:

I think I am with Cal on this one. Honorblades are a... wire to the reservoir of power in the Spiritual Realm, and anyone who wields them can tap into that power at will. What I think Dalinar is doing is building his own wire whenever he wants, and then plugging it into someone else (though he could probably charge himself too). I think it is this act of holding the door open that's exhausting to him. He could probably do the same for an Honorblade, but I don't see why it would be any less tiring.

I agree with Calderis and Argent, Dalinar can only fuel an Honorblade for a short time. The advantage of the Honorblades was that they allowed a continuous feed of investiture straight from Honor and Dalinar isn't capable of providing a sustained feed, yet. 

We don't see him re-fuel Kaladin, but I assume it was done by doing the last clap, merge the realms trick which Dalinar can't hold for very long. Or did smack Kaladin with whatever Dalinar used to open the Oathgate in Chapter 100 of OB and supercharge him that way? Are hose effectively the same idea, grabbing the spiritual realm and yanking it into the physical? 

There is a lot we don't know: 

Do the Honorblades no longer work because Honor no longer has a Vessel or because Honor was splintered?

What did Dalinar actually do when he "Ascended" as Odium put it? Did he briefly unsplinter the Shard Honor or did he hold a large enough piece of it to create a perpendicularity which refueled the gems?

Dalinar isn't Honor's vessel currently, so whatever Dalinar did temporarily, Honor went back to being splintered and Vesseless which means the direct fuel line won't work when Dalinar isn't actively doing whatever he's doing which he can't do for very long. 

Bottom line: Dalinar needs to work on his cardio, run steps up Urithiru. Get that endurance up buddy!

Quote

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

#20 

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Quote

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)
#2 

kurvyyn [PENDING REVIEW]

If Dalinar actually brought Honor back together to summon the perpendicularity, and Odium said he Ascended. Dalinar did he actually hold the Shard Honor and is he now considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO! They are really waiting on this one. Let's just say, he is not Honor currently. But of course, you knew that.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Argent]

6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

We don't see him re-fuel Kaladin, but I assume it was done by doing the last clap, merge the realms trick which Dalinar can't hold for very long. Or did smack Kaladin with whatever Dalinar used to open the Oathgate in Chapter 100 of OB and supercharge him that way? Are hose effectively the same idea, grabbing the spiritual realm and yanking it into the physical? 

 

New headcanon says Dalinar supercharges Radiants by slapping them.

[Ciridae]

Hmm ok, I think I see where you guys are coming from. To run with your analogy Argent, I think that both Dalinar and the Honorblades are the wire to the reservoir of investiture. If I understood you correctly we agree on that. But I don't think that Dalinar charge the Honorblades like he does Kaladin. That would mean he would channel investiture into the Honorblades who would channel it into its wielder, which is a bit redundant. What I'm saying, though, is that if Dalinar and the Honorblades are both a conduit for the investiture to travel through, someone has to hook up the wires to the reservoir of investiture. After that happens Dalinar isn't part of the equation anymore, it's only the investiture, the Honorblade and its weilder.

I should have thought about the title more, I realize it's not really saying what I'm trying to say. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Ciridae

[Calderis]

@Ciridae Hers how I imagine that it works/worked, for both Dalinar and the Honorblades.

Dalinar: Through the Connection that he has to the pieces of Honor via his own actions and the Stormfather (who should provide connection to the entirety of the Shard of Honor through the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast), Dalinar can draw on the power of the shard to provide Stormlight using himself as a conduit.

Honorblades: provide the power of Surgebinding, and were able to fuel that through connection either The Shard of Honor, who's Splinter has removed the ability, or through Tanavast himself who's death and subsequent absorption into the Stormfather has altered enough that the intensity of that Connection no longer works as intended. 

I don't believe that Dalinar can pass his power on to the Honorblades and restore what was lost. They are splinters. Changing them should be as difficult as changing a spren. He would have to rework the connection inbuilt into them. I think it would require enough Investiture that Dalinar would basically be Honor. 

I could be wrong on the mechanisms of any of these things here, because we don't know the entirety of Dalinar's ability or the Honorblades work, let alone what it would take to fix them, but it seems like recreating the weapons that originally allowed the Heralds to win the desolations on their own would be... A pretty major shift in the power balance. 

[Quantus]

I agree with what seems to be the general consensus.  The Honorblades appear to provide two separate things: The Ability to use the Surges, and a direct connection to the Spiritual to bypass the normal Stormlight cycle ecosystem.  The best cosmere analogies I can think of are Unsealed Medallions for the former, and a Mistborn using the Mists to directly fuel Allomancy for the latter. 

 

 I do have a question: The OP mentioned that the Honorblades allowed the Heralds to use the surges "in a far more powerful manner".  I thought that was not the case, that they allowed the Heralds to Channel far more Stormlight than a Radiant, but that their Surges themselves were far less efficient in their energy so it more or less balanced out to the same overall capabilities?  I was thinking that Nale might get a significant advantage by having access to both options, having an Honorblade to provide boatloads of Investiture, and a sentient Bonded spren to manage that excess Investiture into Surges efficiently like Radiants (not unlike the difference between Fabrials and Radiants using a given surge).

 

[Yezrien]

Looks like you'll have to wait until Book 5, when Dalinar starts making Unityblades.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Belzedar

[Ciridae]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't believe that Dalinar can pass his power on to the Honorblades and restore what was lost. They are splinters. Changing them should be as difficult as changing a spren. He would have to rework the connection inbuilt into them. I think it would require enough Investiture that Dalinar would basically be Honor. 

This makes sense, but I don't see why he would have to change them. They were meant to connect to Honors investiture, and you're right that that connection was somehow broken. It's in their nature to connect to Honor, and I think it shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to fix them. 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Honorblades provide the power of Surgebinding, and were able to fuel that through connection either The Shard of Honor, who's Splinter has removed the ability, or through Tanavast himself who's death and subsequent absorption into the Stormfather has altered enough that the intensity of that Connection no longer works as intended. 

I agree with all of this, and Ill concede that we don't know enough about the exact circumstances of why the Honorblades don't work anymore. But I think in many ways Dalinar has shown to act as a representative of Honor, and I don't think that restoring the Honorblades is a matter of quantity of investiture, but of Connection. 

 

@Quantus This was the WoB I was basing that statement on, but it's more open to interpretation than I remembered:

Quote

WindRunner88 [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

source

I interpret "power" not as just stormlight. The question asks about advantages over Radiants, and just having more stormlight but doing the same thing isn't that great of an advantage. I interpreted that as being able to use the surges on a larger scale, but I realise it could be interpreted differently.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Ciridae

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Have we had confirmation the honorblades are broken and no longer capable of drawing directly from honors investiture?

I know Honor was shattered but his investitute wasnt destroyed..

A couple of possibilities with this line of thought:

1) you need to be bonded to the honorblade before you can access investiture directly

2) only the Heralds are capable of using the Honorblades in this way

3) its all about perception - we know that someone holding an Honorblade without knowing what it is is incapable of accessing the surges they grant. What if accessing investiture like the Heralds used to is as simple as knowing you can do it?

This reminds me of the scene in Edgedancer at the when Nale breaksdown and acknowledges the Voidbringers return. The whole fight between Nale and Lift I cant remembet him gkowing much, but right at the end - bam - he flows like the sun and flies off..

!~ HIF ~!

[StormblessedSurvivor]

I think of it similar to Mistborn. Stormlight is like the metals, kind of filtering the power to the person who is burning it. What the Heralds had with Honor's power fueling them is like someone consuming the mists, the god's straight power, much more powerful, fueling them.

[Bigmikey357]

I'm eager to learn what else honorblades can do. I wasn't aware that they were broken in the first place. My thought was that the Heralds as Cognitive Shadows of Honor were the Investiture conduit and the blade provided the surges. The honorblades don't function the same because Stormlight filtered through regular humans are inefficient as a fuel delivery system. But if it's all they can do then it's slightly disappointing.

[Spoolofwhool]

10 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

I think of it similar to Mistborn. Stormlight is like the metals, kind of filtering the power to the person who is burning it. What the Heralds had with Honor's power fueling them is like someone consuming the mists, the god's straight power, much more powerful, fueling them.

Not really. Stormlight is the power that the metals brought. What's filtering and shaping it within the surgebinder is something else. Past that the rest of the analogy is correct, with the mists being a more direct amount of a shard's power fueling them.