Eternal

Odium's Champion

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Hey guys I was just thinking what if events turn such as kaladin becomes Odium's champion. He will not have to break any oath to do so as he will not be fighting anyone who cannot protect himself and also if fourth ideal is to leave those whom you cannot protect or to forgive yourself then what if he decides that there is no hope for human to survive and joins Odium's to protect parshendi and he will have to fight Seth in contest of champions, also Brandon have a thing for doing what is most unlikely so maybe.

So, what do you guys think.

Edited by Eternal
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Welcome to the forum! Cool username!

As for your theory, I think that Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar or Szeth are the candidates for Odiums Champion, because of the text at the back of WoK, which says that one of them will destroy the world. I think it would be a huge change for Kaladin to sideswitch though. Currently, I think Shallan is the more likely one. I do think that Kaladin is more likely than Szeth or Dalinar though. 

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2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Welcome to the forum! Cool username!

As for your theory, I think that Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar or Szeth are the candidates for Odiums Champion, because of the text at the back of WoK, which says that one of them will destroy the world. I think it would be a huge change for Kaladin to sideswitch though. Currently, I think Shallan is the more likely one. I do think that Kaladin is more likely than Szeth or Dalinar though. 

Thanx.

You may be right as Dalinar is out of option and szeth have chosen to follow his will and going over to odium will break his oath which is most unlikely considering his past decisions based on honor of his words even as a truthless.

So that leaves Shallan and Kaladin. Ues, Shallan seems more closer to Odium's than kaladin but I am having trouble picturing her with patternblade to fight a contest for world's fate.But anything is possible with Brandon we can theorize all we want he can prove us all wrong in just a moment. So there.

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8 minutes ago, Eternal said:

Thanx.

You may be right as Dalinar is out of option and szeth have chosen to follow his will and going over to odium will break his oath which is most unlikely considering his past decisions based on honor of his words even as a truthless.

So that leaves Shallan and Kaladin. Ues, Shallan seems more closer to Odium's than kaladin but I am having trouble picturing her with patternblade to fight a contest for world's fate.But anything is possible with Brandon we can theorize all we want he can prove us all wrong in just a moment. So there.

well if she became Odium's champion she probably would give up her pain to him like moash did and Dalinar almost did

plus I think it was in WOR one of the epigraphs talked about a lightweaver that was an extremely good fighter so it could be possible

found the quote 

Quote

"Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain."

WOR ch 57 epigraph

 

Edited by turtle373
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The reason for Shallan is simple: she is the easist to break. Kaladin has close relationships with a lot of people, doesn’t hare lighteyes as much and gets better at handling his mental issues. Shallan has a ton of secrets, few close relationships, and might become close to Mraize and an Unmade. Her mental health is still a mess as well, and she has tons and tons of pain.

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5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Welcome to the forum! Cool username!

As for your theory, I think that Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar or Szeth are the candidates for Odiums Champion, because of the text at the back of WoK, which says that one of them will destroy the world. I think it would be a huge change for Kaladin to sideswitch though. Currently, I think Shallan is the more likely one. I do think that Kaladin is more likely than Szeth or Dalinar though. 

Not be that guy, but the back cover actually says that "One of them may redeem us. One of them will destroy us." Given that the back covers are confirmed to be written by the Aimians, "one of them will destroy us" is quite different from "one of them will destroy the world." It's very easy to see a scenario in which none of those 4 are chosen as Odium's champion but still end up destroying what is left of Aimia/the Aimian people. 

As for who actually will be chosen, I think the frontrunner right now is Moash, who is being set up as Kaladin's "big bad" for at least the first 5 stormlight books. On the other hand, I would be surprised if Brandon made it that obvious.

My favorite theory on this topic is that Odium will choose one of the children that we've been introduced to as his champion: either Oroden or Gavinor. 

My speculation is primarily based on this epigraph from WoK:

 

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.

If Kaladin were chosen as Honor's champion, and Odium chose either baby Gavinor or Oroden as his champion, I think it's very likely that Kaladin would be unable to sacrifice a child for the sake of ending a desolation, or "gaining us further breath to draw."  That could very well be how Stormlight 5 ends, with the forces of Honor losing because of Kaladin's choice. 

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@dantlee You are correct: its been long since I read the back cover of WoK. Still, I doubt that the destruction and redeeming only has to do with the aimians. I think that if the aimians are destroyed, it will be in a scenario where the world is at risk as well. 

As for Moash, he is so obvious that he has to be a red herring. He might be a vessel for Yelig-nar, or become some kind of anti-Herald. 

The child theory is one I like as well. In that scenario, Kaladin could destroy the aimians while being Honors Champion, so it works. 

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The child theory is just dumb. A baby has no agency, and cannot "choose" whether or not they'll accept Odium's offer. Odium can't choose people against their will, as we saw with Dalinar (and he was deeply corrupted by the Thrill, too). This is literally not even a possibility unless you want to suggest that Odium can mind-control random babies.

Edited by Vissy
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1 hour ago, Vissy said:

The child theory is just dumb. A baby has no agency, and cannot "choose" whether or not they'll accept Odium's offer. Odium can't choose people against their will, as we saw with Dalinar (and he was deeply corrupted by the Thrill, too). This is literally not even a possibility unless you want to suggest that Odium can mind-control random babies.

That is a problem. It might work if the childs guardian accepts it for the child, but it is a long shot in several regards. The reason for why I like the idea is that it works so well with the aforementioned death rattle, and because of how it fits with the general theme of life before death and different moral choices. 

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It's not really that interesting. You'd basically just be rehashing the Baby Hitler arguments in that scenario.

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55 minutes ago, Vissy said:

It's not really that interesting. You'd basically just be rehashing the Baby Hitler arguments in that scenario.

It would defenitely be interesting to watch the consequences for the characters and their worldview. 

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The child scenario does not appeal to me even a bit, first I think Odium needs the champion to choose for himself and a child has no pain to give up.

Even if it works by their gaurdians accepting it then also Gavinor is in care of Dalinar and Navani. Oroden with Lirin and kal's mother I can not see any of them accepting it.

Even now I think most likely choices are kaladin, Shallan maybe Adolin.

And for Moash he is too Obvious for being Odium's champion, it's not Brandon's style remember how he mislead us to the last point to give the Real hero of ages in mistborn.

Edited by Eternal
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I still think that Moash is just a red herring. He might become Yelig-Nar's vessel (in that regard, Amaram's purpose would become clearer as the "first taste" of what that looks like), but that's the extent of it. Odium's Champion needs to be someone who can instill fear in everyone's hearts, a true symbol. Kaladin views Moash as a coward and a traitor, and so does pretty much everyone else in Bridge 4 - he's basically never going to be feared in that way by them. He's like a whiny teenager to them.

Edited by Vissy
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1 hour ago, hustlegion said:

Could the champion be adolin?

 

maybe but he doesn't have much pain to give up, so he probably wouldn't but that could change, maybe the ghostbloods do something to him to get to Shallan? but he is a really really good dueler so that would make sense, but I just can't see Adolin doing that

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When I was reading the OB preview chapters, I definitely thought it would be Adolin or Renarin given Dalinar’s visions of Odium’s Champion and his feeling that there was something familiar about him. Now, I’m not so sure. 

Out there theory with very little evidence: what if Ishar becomes Odium’s champion? There would be a poetic and tragic symmetry to a herald and former Bondsmith becoming the champion of the enemy. 

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I think it would take an intense amount of mental gymnastics for a Windrunner in general and Kaladin specifically (since we know his versions of the Ideals) to become the champion of the Invader who's expressed purpose (to Dalinar) is to accomplish a murder list and move on from that world with no regard to the state of things he leaves behind.  While not necessarily 100% incompatible Im sure, I think it would be pretty tought to justify that sort of killing spree as an act Protecting the weak.

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1 hour ago, dantlee said:

Out there theory with very little evidence: what if Ishar becomes Odium’s champion? There would be a poetic and tragic symmetry to a herald and former Bondsmith becoming the champion of the enemy. 

I think the mostly likely person mentioned so far would be Shallan, but even then, I can't see her doing something like that. She has been getting better mentally, and now has Adolin more than ever to help her out. 

Who else could it be? I liked the Herald idea, certainly has a lot of pain to give up

Edited by #ineedspace
Forgot something
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Obvious or no, I still think it'll be Moash.

And Kaladin (who will be Honor's champion) will fu... er, I mean... um, storm up?  That is he won't be able to hurt Moash.

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17 hours ago, dantlee said:

When I was reading the OB preview chapters, I definitely thought it would be Adolin or Renarin given Dalinar’s visions of Odium’s Champion and his feeling that there was something familiar about him. Now, I’m not so sure. 

The reason why Odium's champion felt familiar to Dalinar is because it was Dalinar.  And he would have gotten away with it too, if not for that meddling Cultivation.  

Edited by Scion of the Mists
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On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 8:08 AM, Vissy said:

I still think that Moash is just a red herring. He might become Yelig-Nar's vessel (in that regard, Amaram's purpose would become clearer as the "first taste" of what that looks like), but that's the extent of it. Odium's Champion needs to be someone who can instill fear in everyone's hearts, a true symbol. Kaladin views Moash as a coward and a traitor, and so does pretty much everyone else in Bridge 4 - he's basically never going to be feared in that way by them. He's like a whiny teenager to them.

(someone really  hates moash)

 

the other bridge members verified they don't really know what went down with moash kaladin refused to talk about it

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In a discussion   brandon did with wowcrendor, he mentions he has small reservations about  there not being that many "twists" in this paticular  series.

And is more concerned with painting a wonderful epic with an interesting world.

 

Moash being odiims champion is obvious, i figure thats probably  where it will go.

However, i do not think thats where the story will climax, i would bet money that it goes a level deeper.

As for shalan or kaladin being tested, i am sure they will. But i do not think they will turn to odium. 

 

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9 hours ago, sonoskay said:

there not being that many "twists" in this paticular  series.

Mwahaha there is always another secret, however ;)

Supertwist options: Cultivation becomes Odium's champion, or the Stormfather does. Or the planet of Sel makes its way to the Rosharan system and, as a sapient god-planet, swears fealty to its creator :P

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On 11/1/2018 at 1:46 PM, #ineedspace said:

I think the mostly likely person mentioned so far would be Shallan, but even then, I can't see her doing something like that. She has been getting better mentally, and now has Adolin more than ever to help her out. 

Who else could it be? I liked the Herald idea, certainly has a lot of pain to give up

I'm thinking more and more that Odium's Champion is more likely to be Nale, especially if the list of candidates is opened up to the Heralds.  He has abdicated his own judgment of right and wrong to the Listeners, and it's an incredibly short step from that point to doing as Odium wishes.  Seeing how someone who sticks to the letter of their Oath ends up betraying everything they ever swore could be interesting to see, as well.

Of course, if we just want to go with whoever has suffered the most pain, then Taln wins hands-down.  And he's completely, utterly broken.  If Odium decided to take all of that pain away, and to leave Roshar with minimal future destruction (even if lying), would Taln really resist?  Could he?  Sure, in his sane moments, but how many of those does he have in comparison to the ones where he's a broken wreck?

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15 hours ago, kaellok said:

I'm thinking more and more that Odium's Champion is more likely to be Nale, especially if the list of candidates is opened up to the Heralds.  He has abdicated his own judgment of right and wrong to the Listeners, and it's an incredibly short step from that point to doing as Odium wishes.  Seeing how someone who sticks to the letter of their Oath ends up betraying everything they ever swore could be interesting to see, as well.

Of course, if we just want to go with whoever has suffered the most pain, then Taln wins hands-down.  And he's completely, utterly broken.  If Odium decided to take all of that pain away, and to leave Roshar with minimal future destruction (even if lying), would Taln really resist?  Could he?  Sure, in his sane moments, but how many of those does he have in comparison to the ones where he's a broken wreck?

Speaking of Taln...

I went to the Skyward book signing in Seattle this last Saturday, and Brandon talked about the first version of WoK that he wrote in 2002. (It was so different than what we all know! No spren, no Knights Radiants, and no Bridge Four. Basically, the story starts with Taln stumbling into a town with a shardblade, and saying a disasters coming, and the story goes through trying to figure out whether he's actually a herald, and whether he's telling the truth or not. According to Brandon, it failed, but he plans to maybe publish it after he's finished the Stormlight series as another thing for fans to enjoy. Some of it is still cannon apparently.) Anyways, he talked a lot about Taln, and apparently Taln is the flasback character of Book 9. Taln will obviously become more important, and a whole book exploring the background of Odium's champion would make a lot of sense.

My new vote is that Odium's champion will be Taln, but we'll see. 

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