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Dalinar the politician and the Vorin church


Diomedes

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I just finished rereading the Kadash/ Dalinar scene in OB and realized that Dalinar is truly awful at being a politician. He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies. 

Another thing I realized: The Kholins don`t have personal friends. Dalinar has no confidant telling him: Look, you may think the Almighty does not exist, but what you are doing right now is really stupid. We need to  keep our kingdom together, you know, especially in times like these. So you keep this stuff to yourself, would you? 

 There is a certain amount of insensitivity in regards to other people that is a shared trait among the Kholins. (With the exception of Adolin but he is not really interested in this stuff). 

I´am calling it that the Ardents are going to betray Dalinar in the next book and join Taravangian/Odium. 

 

 

Edited by Diomedes
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I doubt that the entire vorin church will turn against the kholins. Most world leaders have recognized that they are in another desolation, and thusly their ardents would probably be disinclined to join the enemies' side. It's a fairly delineated conflict: parshendi versus humans, and the parshendi have the fused, who probably seem like the vorin equivalent of demons. For the ardentia to take the side of Odium there would need to be a significant cognitive disconnect or a lot of weird literary shenanigans on Sanderson's part. I do however agree with you on the insight regarding dalinar and the kholins.

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I could see the Vorin church supporting Taravangian over Dalinar without realizing that Taravangian is working with/for Odium. If they knew about Taravangian's allegiance than... Anyone who's Vorin and not Dalinar would probably work for them.

Totally agree with you about Dalinar's political skills:D although in all fairness Dalinar does admit he's bad at the art...

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Dalinar does admit his ineffectiveness in the political arena several times. Both in conversation and in internal monologues.

However... Zealots will always be Zealots, and it seems as though the Ardentia as a whole is taking the information passed on by Dalinar VERY personally.

And, well, Hierocracy...

Perhaps it is more subtle now, but the Ardents do have an incredible amount of influence over the Ruling Class of Roshar. 

I don’t have much trouble believing that a large part of the Ardentia would, in all good Faith, divert their efforts to helping and supporting Taravangian and by extension, Odium. 

Edited by IllNsickly
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Let's also not forget the fact that the Vorin church is extremely unlikely to believe that Taln is the Herald of War, especially with those dark eyes of his and presumably no way to prove it (to say nothing about his mental state).  Even if he had his Honorblade, they would likely decry him as a Voidbringer or "just a Radiant" simply because he didn't fit the current narrative for how the Heralds are supposed to be.

So yeah, I'd be surprised if Dalinar had anything less than a sheer cliff wall to scale, in terms of getting the rest of Roshar to truly listen to what he has to say. He has very little in his arsenal that is guaranteed to get through to others except for his tenacity, really. Matters at Thaylen City will help, but it is pretty much a given that "the Alethi" tried to take it over.  There is still plenty of debris to dig through, literally and figuratively.

Edited by dvoraen
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1 hour ago, dvoraen said:

Let's also not forget the fact that the Vorin church is extremely unlikely to believe that Taln is the Herald of War, especially with those dark eyes of his and presumably no way to prove it (to say nothing about his mental state).  Even if he had his Honorblade, they would likely decry him as a Voidbringer or "just a Radiant" simply because he didn't fit the current narrative for how the Heralds are supposed to be.

So yeah, I'd be surprised if Dalinar had anything less than a sheer cliff wall to scale, in terms of getting the rest of Roshar to truly listen to what he has to say. He has very little in his arsenal that is guaranteed to get through to others except for his tenacity, really. Matters at Thaylen City will help, but it is pretty much a given that "the Alethi" tried to take it over.  There is still plenty of debris to dig through, literally and figuratively.

He does kind of have the return of the Knights Radiant on his side...

As for Taln, I doubt Dalinar is going to place much importance on him (or Ash) until they're in a somewhat stable state.

Decrying a human as Voidbringer is something I think is very unlikely, as that goes completely against the Vorin narrative (despite the historical basis for it...).

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Yes, Dalinar is awful at politics.  He seems to have contracted the Stark family affliction where he values honor and honesty so highly, even when it results in all of his plans failing and the people he loves dying.  However, he does have Navani and now Jasnah to help guide him.  

@Diomedes You don't need to put [OB] in the title anymore - the 9 month spoiler period ended on August 14th.  

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10 hours ago, IllNsickly said:

However... Zealots will always be Zealots, and it seems as though the Ardentia as a whole is taking the information passed on by Dalinar VERY personally.

Kadash is not a zealot, if Dalinar manages to lose even his support, well... everyone is going to hate him. 

I wonder about Odium... what do the ardents know about him, actually? Their code of ethics is already pretty Odium-ish: destination before journey, victory before everything else. Could it be that a certain someone manipulated the Vorin faith for millenia in order to bring them to his side? Odium could pretend to be the Almighty, helping the "faithful" against the Heretics.

Their Queen also happens to be Jasnah. I think they will absolutly love that. :D     

Edit: There is no concept of a "devil" in Vorinism, as far as I have checked on coppermind. Could be a coincidence, but I don`t think so. The only thing Odium needs to do is reveal himself in all his godly glory. The Ardents will have no other choice but to think he is the Almighty, since there is no god but the "One True God". 

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Odium`s manipulation of Vorinism would parallel Ruin`s influence on the prophcey on Sel

 

Edited by Diomedes
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I think Diomedes is right in this regard if odium choses to come in front in all his Glory there is good chance that ardents will take his as almighty, it will also provide them with concrete reasoning to prove Dalinar a Heretic and get in the position of Power.

There may be also certain ardents who can go upto odium knowing full well he is not the almighty as the one we saw in interlude of alethkar in words of radiance can't remember his name though..

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31 minutes ago, Eternal said:

I think Diomedes is right in this regard if odium choses to come in front in all his Glory there is good chance that ardents will take his as almighty, it will also provide them with concrete reasoning to prove Dalinar a Heretic and get in the position of Power.

There may be also certain ardents who can go upto odium knowing full well he is not the almighty as the one we saw in interlude of alethkar in words of radiance can't remember his name though..

This is a strategy I had not thought of. He could pose as the Almighty, even Dalinar took Odium to be the Almighty when he first met him in the Vision. Without any sane Heralds to contradict him it could split allegiances. I don't think the whole church will go over, racism will take precedence over religious claims for some. Odium's forces are mostly Pashendi with creepy red eyes and dark violet glows ... and rock monsters.

He might convince some to switch sides by posing as the Almighty, but he might have more success doing what he did with Amaram: showing him that his religion was a lie, that the Heralds lied and quit on humanity. Get them to give into despair. 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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11 hours ago, IllNsickly said:

Perhaps it is more subtle now, but the Ardents do have an incredible amount of influence over the Ruling Class of Roshar. 

I don’t have much trouble believing that a large part of the Ardentia would, in all good Faith, divert their efforts to helping and supporting Taravangian and by extension, Odium. 

The side of classical Vorinism now appears to be House Sadeas. I am sure we will see two version of the battle of Thaylen Field, which differ on who attacked whom. The Thrill used to be on the Alethi side. Declaring it an enemy will not just convince everybody or even a majority. The new Radiants are betraying Alethkar again.

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@Diomedes

I feel like Kadash would be an exception, though I can’t really qualify it. 

 

But with the ‘Golden Light’ that Odium seems to exude when he is interacting with someone seems like a mechanism to inspire Zealotry in people who have devoted their lives to following and teaching Divine Mandates. It is warm, comforting and welcoming... and will be more than enough to convince people.

 

@Oltux72

 

I see House Sadeas being firmly in the Odium Camp. With the Ardentia being the Classical Vorinism camp, and with them, the majority of the Vorin Kingdoms. Dalinar and his beliefs are still a VERY small minority.

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think this is where Restares will finally show up - taking the power over the Vorin church

Yeah, I think Restares is someone already high up the ranks of the church and will become a major villain in the next installment leading the church against the Kholins.

 

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

He might convince some to switch sides by posing as the Almighty, but he might have more success doing what he did with Amaram: showing him that his religion was a lie, that the Heralds lied and quit on humanity. Get them to give into despair.

Did Odium convince him that way? Amaram`s turn to Odium was off screen, as far as I can remember it. He could just as likely have promised to reinstate the true power of Vorinism, which is what Amaram and the Son`s of Honor always wanted.

There is a nice parallel between the Heralds and the church; Both are doing the exact opposite of what they were supposed to do. Shalash is destroying art, Nale exacts injustice, the church is leading people to Odium, instead of Honor.     

To get back to Dalinar, I think he is making these poor decisions because he does not have sufficient information. His "spy master" Jasnah is not really telling him anything. He is mostly guessing his way through politics. 

Now, that I think about it, what is Jasnah doing all day long? If she is gathering information, why doesn`t she tell Dalinar?     

 

 

Edited by Diomedes
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Do you believe when Odium says he doesn't lie and/or respects the spirit of pacts rather than the letter?
I don't, but have my doubts if it could be the case.
The point beeing that if this is true, it would be way harder for him to pose as Honor and get the ardents on his side.
Also, someone said it's a pretty straight forward conflict with parshendi vs. humans. I don't think this to be true at all, Oathbringer shows it never was quite like that and I believe this desolation will be even less delinieted than ever

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5 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Do you believe when Odium says he doesn't lie and/or respects the spirit of pacts rather than the letter?
I don't, but have my doubts if it could be the case.

I think that, in general, Rayse would not be someone that I would normally trust. However, Rayse as Odium is bound to any agreements he intentionally makes, due to his nature as a Shard, so I would trust him on that count. Whatever his Intent is in making pact, he is bound to.

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12 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

The point beeing that if this is true, it would be way harder for him to pose as Honor and get the ardents on his side.

He is not posing as "Honor", he is posing as the Almighty, the one true god.

You presume the Ardents know as much about Honor, Odium Radiants and their powers as our POVs do, but they don`t. The only source of knowledge for them is a) Dalinar an heretics or b ) their own doctrin.

Thing is Vorin doctrin is so unspecific, it could apply to anything. Odium doesn`t need to lie, he just needs to leave out parts of the truth.

12 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

I don't think this to be true at all, Oathbringer shows it never was quite like that and I believe this desolation will be even less delinieted than ever

Yes, this conflict is way more complicated. More Humans will join Odium and a lot of Parshendi (Venli) will join Dalinar. 

Edited by Diomedes
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  • Diomedes changed the title to Dalinar the politician and the Vorin church
2 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

He is not posing as "Honor", he is posing as the Almighty, the one true god.

You presume the Ardents know as much about Honor, Odium Radiants and their powers as our POVs do, but they don`t. The only source of knowledge for them is a) Dalinar an heretics or b ) their own doctrin.

Thing is Vorin doctrin is so unspecific, it could apply to anything. Odium doesn`t need to lie, he just needs to leave out parts of the truth.

Well yeah, but ardents associate the Almighty with Honor so posing as the Almighty for them is in direct violation of the spirit of such idea. And is something he would definitly know as it's what he would be counting on for it to work.
At least that's how I see it, and  I'm not claiming it it to be totally impossible for something kindda like that to happen. I just think it's not that easy for him to trick people if what he claims about himself (or how I interpret such claims) is true

 

12 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I think that, in general, Rayse would not be someone that I would normally trust. However, Rayse as Odium is bound to any agreements he intentionally makes, due to his nature as a Shard, so I would trust him on that count. Whatever his Intent is in making pact, he is bound to.

I think that if there is any loophole he could exploit to trick the ardents is in the extent of how his bounds work (do we have any wob on this beeing even true?)
I mean, can he lie as long as there is no agreement? If so he could reveal himself as the Almighty (a lie without a pact), then leave, then come back and pact an agreement with the ardents where there is no mention of him being the god they think him to be... but I still think this goes against the spirit of the pact

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2 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

Well yeah, but ardents associate the Almighty with Honor

Do they?

As far as I know, they don`t know about any force called "Honor", they only know the "almighty, creator of mankind", which fits just as well to Odium. The coppermind article on Vorinism does not even mention Honor. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vorinism#Ardentia 

Like I said there is not even the concept of an evil god or a devil in Vorinism, these people don`t know anything about shards and powers. 

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19 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Do they?

As far as I know, they don`t know about any force called "Honor", they only know the "almighty, creator of mankind", which fits just as well to Odium. The coppermind article on Vorinism does not even mention Honor. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vorinism#Ardentia 

Like I said there is not even the concept of an evil god or a devil in Vorinism, these people don`t know anything about shards and powers. 

You might be right but ain't the whole point of the ardentia to teach about humans and the almighty fighting against the voidbringers in the desolations? How does Odium fit on that?

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Now that Jasnah is queen, I have my doubts that she would show mercy if the Ardents decided to betray her family. She got pretty torn up about Shallan when Shallan was just her student. I would hate to see what would happen if the Ardentia went after her. She is very much like her mother in that she is loyal to her clan. Not to mention that she is very utilitarian in her philosophy. Remember what happened last time an Ardent offended the royal family? It was not good. With Jasnah on the throne, I would anticipate a full blown purge of the Ardentia if they went after any of the Kholin clan.

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26 minutes ago, Mah'alleinir said:

You might be right but ain't the whole point of the ardentia to teach about humans and the almighty fighting against the voidbringers in the desolations? How does Odium fit on that?

Again, Vorinism does not define who the "Voidbringers" are. Jasnah learns after a lot of research that the Parsh were the Voidbringers. People do not know that.

Also Odium was probably leading the Humans during the first Desolation. So he could say that there was only one true desolation instead of 99. Then Humans betrayed the Almighty and created the traiterous Knights Radiant to fight against their God. But now they have time to right their wrongs by joining him.

See, it`s like in the time of the religious wars in europe. All kinds of people interpreted the bible differently and all of the sudden the pope was the antichrist, or Martin Luther was the antichrist or the swedish king was the biblical king who arises from the North.

Point is religious texts and doctrins can be bent and reinterpreted to fit the needs of people reading them. Vorinism is really ill defined. It can be reinterpreted like anybody (Odium) would want it.

 

Edited by Diomedes
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