Does sand keep Sandmasters alive?

[Fanghur Rahl]

So I finally got around to checking out the White Sand graphic novel, and I wasn’t that impressed to be honest, though mostly just because I don’t like the medium. But anyway, one thing that confused me is that after all the Sandmasters but Kenton were killed, Kenton was buried under the sand for what was implied to be a considerable length of time before regaining consciousness. But how the heck could he have survived for hours buried alive? Is this just a plot hole or are Sandmasters able to somehow subconsciously draw ‘life force’ or something out of the sand to keep them alive? Because nothing to that effect was ever explained, at least not in the graphic novel (BTW, if anyone has the prose and would be willing to send me a copy, let me know).

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

So I finally got around to checking out the White Sand graphic novel, and I wasn’t that impressed to be honest, though mostly just because I don’t like the medium. But anyway, one thing that confused me is that after all the Sandmasters but Kenton were killed, Kenton was buried under the sand for what was implied to be a considerable length of time before regaining consciousness. But how the heck could he have survived for hours buried alive? Is this just a plot hole or are Sandmasters able to somehow subconsciously draw ‘life force’ or something out of the sand to keep them alive? Because nothing to that effect was ever explained, at least not in the graphic novel (BTW, if anyone has the prose and would be willing to send me a copy, let me know).

I imagine he wasn't buried enough that he couldn't breathe - we don't have any indication that Sandmastery can accomplish anything of that sort.  

 

You can get the Prose version of White Sand by signing up for Brandon's newsletter.  We are not allowed to give out copies to people directly.  

[teknopathetic]

On 10/26/2018 at 11:26 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

I imagine he wasn't buried enough that he couldn't breathe - we don't have any indication that Sandmastery can accomplish anything of that sort.  

 

You can get the Prose version of White Sand by signing up for Brandon's newsletter.  We are not allowed to give out copies to people directly.  

It would be interesting if people could "burn" sand passively in a similar fashion to metals (when they were badly hurt). Sand can provide water, so maybe that was occurring, and since water has oxygen...maybe.... 

[Calderis]

Kenton can't slatrify, so he couldn't have gotten water that way. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

Kenton can't slatrify, so he couldn't have gotten water that way. 

Didn’t Brandon say somewhere that he was planning to ret-gone slatrification altogether?

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Didn’t Brandon say somewhere that he was planning to ret-gone slatrification altogether?

Yes and no. He said that he isn't happy with slatrification, and if he were to rewrite it he would remove it and the graphic novel would be treated as kind of an in world story that had been mythologized. As much as I'd prefer that route, with how full his plate is I doubt we'll see it happen. 

Quote

Strumienpola (paraphrased)

Can you slatrify sand into other liquids?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*thinks a moment* I admit that slatrification is one aspect of Sand Mastery I'm the least fond of, because it doesn't mesh well with the rest of Cosmere magic. The comicbook writers are working with my original script, with very minor changes, but if we ever release White Sand in print - which we might do - I might end up changing it. So - I won't answer that, because I'm not yet sure if slatifying into water is possible. *laughs* You can think of the comic as sort of in-universe story about those characters, then.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

About slatrification, he said that if he ever writes the novel, he'll make slatrification an in-world legend.

source

 

[Fanghur Rahl]

Along with the random sound amplifier or whatever it is that Kenton’s dad has? lol.

[+Oltux72]

On 10/30/2018 at 0:45 PM, Calderis said:

Yes and no. He said that he isn't happy with slatrification, and if he were to rewrite it he would remove it and the graphic novel would be treated as kind of an in world story that had been mythologized.

Actually, isn't slatrification effectively what can be seen in other systems?

Spoiler

It look like soulcasting sand to water.

The interesting things is rather that other conversions are not possible. Like sand to sand stone. However, it is possible that they are possible, but they haven't yet figured out how to do it or forgotten it.

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Actually, isn't slatrification effectively what can be seen in other systems?

  Hide contents

It look like soulcasting sand to water.

The interesting things is rather that other conversions are not possible. Like sand to sand stone. However, it is possible that they are possible, but they haven't yet figured out how to do it or forgotten it.

Yeah, slatrification has always been the weird part of Sand Mastery that "doesn't match the rest of the magic system."  He originally added it to write himself out of a hole.  He's confirmed that, despite appearing in White Sand Volume 1, it will be removed retroactively in the third volume.  

And yes, it's similar to Soulcasting, but that's not too surprising.  There's lots of overlap between the Cosmere magic systems due to them sharing underlying mechanics (e.g. bronze and Aviar).  

P.s. Unmarked spoiler boxes don't do much good since nobody knows what's inside them.  

[+Oltux72]

12 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Yeah, slatrification has always been the weird part of Sand Mastery that "doesn't match the rest of the magic system."  He originally added it to write himself out of a hole.  He's confirmed that, despite appearing in White Sand Volume 1, it will be removed retroactively in the third volume. 

A very limited form of telekinesis with a pretty light show is a bit thin for a world with a Shard in residence, isn't it? And if there is anything on the Dark Side it has to be rare, or else Khrisella would not be so confident that magic does not exist. Taildaine seems a bit underwhelming, well undermagiced even with slatrification..

[Quantus]

Im not sure I see how Slatrification doesnt fit with the rest of the system, unless it's just being able to create volumes of water externally.  The internal aspects of it at least dont seem to be any different than F-Bendalloy.  I mean, if you stored a bunch of hydration in a metalmind, then reclaimed it after getting severely dehydrated, you'll be able to produce real moisture (sweat, saliva, etc) that wasn't physically present in the world before, converting moisture to Investiture and back again.  Though doing it internally, and thus somewhat via your own spiritual aspect, might make all the difference versus converting Invested Sand directly into volumes of water. 

[Scion of the Mists]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not sure I see how Slatrification doesnt fit with the rest of the system, unless it's just being able to create volumes of water externally.  The internal aspects of it at least dont seem to be any different than F-Bendalloy.  I mean, if you stored a bunch of hydration in a metalmind, then reclaimed it after getting severely dehydrated, you'll be able to produce real moisture (sweat, saliva, etc) that wasn't physically present in the world before, converting moisture to Investiture and back again.  Though doing it internally, and thus somewhat via your own spiritual aspect, might make all the difference versus converting Invested Sand directly into volumes of water. 

Inconsistent with the rest of Sandmastery, which is physical manipulation of sand (i.e. telekinesis with a dose of levitation).  Actually turning the sand into a different substance is a whole other thing.  Plus, Sandmastery had limits in that you had to fuel it with your body's water; use too much and you die.  Adding the ability to make water from sand (for no cost) completely nullified the limit.  And it didn't play into the story much either.  

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

A very limited form of telekinesis with a pretty light show is a bit thin for a world with a Shard in residence, isn't it? And if there is anything on the Dark Side it has to be rare, or else Khrisella would not be so confident that magic does not exist. Taildaine seems a bit underwhelming, well undermagiced even with slatrification..

Yes, it's very underpowered compared to the main planets, but that's okay - Taldain is interesting for other reasons.  They're much more technologically advanced than the other worlds (insert boombox joke here), plus there's the whole Autonomy aspect.  

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Inconsistent with the rest of Sandmastery, which is physical manipulation of sand (i.e. telekinesis with a dose of levitation).  Actually turning the sand into a different substance is a whole other thing.  Plus, Sandmastery had limits in that you had to fuel it with your body's water; use too much and you die.  Adding the ability to make water from sand (for no cost) completely nullified the limit.  And it didn't play into the story much either. 

That's fair, it's definitely a wildly different domain of power.  The idea of higher levels of mastery being able to circumvent the limitations didnt really bother me all that much, though, as that was a common theme of the Heightening levels in Awakening. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

Slatrification has always seemed kind of like the magic-equivalent of a perpetual motion machine to me. Sandmastery is effectively ‘powered’ by water, and yet can be used to create water in presumably greater quantities than it took to make it or it would defeat the purpose? That’s never sat well with me.

[Scion of the Mists]

16 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Slatrification has always seemed kind of like the magic-equivalent of a perpetual motion machine to me. Sandmastery is effectively ‘powered’ by water, and yet can be used to create water in presumably greater quantities than it took to make it or it would defeat the purpose? That’s never sat well with me.

I would imagine that Sandmastery is powered by Autonomy's Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, while the water acts more like the metals on Scadrial, which provide the initial connection.  But yes, I agree that it seems at odds with the intent of water as a limiting factor.  I mean if all magic users inherently have a means to bypass the limit, why have the limit in the first place?  

[Fanghur Rahl]

8 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I would imagine that Sandmastery is powered by Autonomy's Investiture from the Spiritual Realm, while the water acts more like the metals on Scadrial, which provide the initial connection.  But yes, I agree that it seems at odds with the intent of water as a limiting factor.  I mean if all magic users inherently have a means to bypass the limit, why have the limit in the first place?  

Exactly, it would basically be the equivalent of plugging a power bar into itself to generate electricity. Something like that has no place in science-fantasy IMO.

[+Oltux72]

On 2/6/2019 at 11:50 PM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Exactly, it would basically be the equivalent of plugging a power bar into itself to generate electricity. Something like that has no place in science-fantasy IMO.

But it fits with autonomy as an ideology. THe highest expression of mastery allows you to be free of external limits.

[Scion of the Mists]

I mean, the stronger restrictions on sand mastery are that it only works on sand and that you need to recharge the sand between uses.  So it's not like there are no limits at all, even with slatrification.  

 

And, as far as my earlier point about it not meshing with the rest of sand master, here's a quote directly from Kenton:

Quote

Wildly different from sand mastery’s other abilities and something no amount of ingenuity can replicate...

Edited February 8, 2019 by Scion of the Mists

[Pathfinder]

Dropping in briefly, and will contribute better later when I have more time, but I feel like I recall in the prose (I have spoilered because I cannot recall the forum rules if it was changed that you can discuss the prose in either thread yet or not)

Spoiler

that kenton remarked to himself that his father use the sand to protect him and gave him a pocket of air. So that is why Kenton survived buried under the sand. It was his father's last act to save his son.

But I am going on recollection so I will need to dig and check the prose again to be sure

Edited February 13, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72]

On 2/8/2019 at 3:07 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

I mean, the stronger restrictions on sand mastery are that it only works on sand and that you need to recharge the sand between uses.  So it's not like there are no limits at all, even with slatrification.  

True. It however would then cease to be Sand Mastery. So why Sand Mastery? Presumably because it works only on Taldain (sanely - yes you could ship a dozen tons of sand offworld). And it works best if you are alone, so you don't have to share sand.

On 2/8/2019 at 3:07 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

And, as far as my earlier point about it not meshing with the rest of sand master, here's a quote directly from Kenton:

A quote depending, however, on Kenton's assumption that he knows all strange powers of Sand Mastery. If the HQ was made with Sand Mastery, he does not.

 

On 2/5/2019 at 11:04 PM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Slatrification has always seemed kind of like the magic-equivalent of a perpetual motion machine to me. Sandmastery is effectively ‘powered’ by water, and yet can be used to create water in presumably greater quantities than it took to make it or it would defeat the purpose? That’s never sat well with me.

(Elantris spoiler)

Spoiler

Isn't that exactly what the city of Elantris does? Using an Aon to overcome power limits of Aons?

 

[Scion of the Mists]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

(Elantris spoiler)

  Hide contents

Isn't that exactly what the city of Elantris does? Using an Aon to overcome power limits of Aons?

(Elantris spoiler)

Spoiler

The way I look at it, the major limitation of AonDoor (and all of the Selish magics) is the location dependence, not their power level.  Yes, Elantris boosts the power of Aons in Arelon, but it doesn't really affect the location dependence.  It's more like duralumin - a way to use the magic system to super charge your magic.  I would say that the equivalent to slatrification in Allomancy would be something that granted you unlimited metal reserves.  

 

Anyway, the point wasn't that slatrification makes sand mastery overpowered.  The point was that it's a mechanic that virtually all sand masters have access to that completely bypasses a major restriction of the magic system.  Why even have the dehydration aspect if you can just make more water?  Even Brandon admits it doesn't makes sense.  

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

For instance, in the White Sand books, my first book that I wrote, that we eventually turned into graphic novels. I had a really cool magic system that was about manipulating sand with your mind, and things like this. And then I added in a weird thing where you could transform sand into water for no good reason whatsoever. It doesn't match the rest the magic system. Because I wanted to write myself out of a hole. And as a newer writer, I did that a lot more. It ended up kind of getting canonized, and when we went back, I didn't fix it that fast, and so it ended up in the first graphic novel, and I'm like, "We need to fix this." So, the third graphic novel... we've given ourselves enough wiggle room, fortunately, that I can be like, "And that's not what people thought it was." Because I want it to be more consistent. So you get that third graphic novel, and you're like, "Wow, they can't do this anymore?" No one ever did it onscreen, so they were just wrong. 'Cause that totally just does not belong in that magic system.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

[Fanghur Rahl]

On 2019-02-14 at 4:32 AM, Oltux72 said:

True. It however would then cease to be Sand Mastery. So why Sand Mastery? Presumably because it works only on Taldain (sanely - yes you could ship a dozen tons of sand offworld). And it works best if you are alone, so you don't have to share sand.

A quote depending, however, on Kenton's assumption that he knows all strange powers of Sand Mastery. If the HQ was made with Sand Mastery, he does not.

 

(Elantris spoiler)

  Hide contents

Isn't that exactly what the city of Elantris does? Using an Aon to overcome power limits of Aons?

 

No, all Elantris really does is basically create an even larger ‘hole’ for the Dor to flow through. 

[Pathfinder]

6 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

No, all Elantris really does is basically create an even larger ‘hole’ for the Dor to flow through. 

I would like to understand your statement better. From what I recall from the book and WoB, Elantris acts as an amplifier. I thought the Dor flowed through the Elantrian when they draw an aon that then determines what the Dor does. I thought that was why Raoden was experiencing pain, it kept trying to flow through him. Without the chasm line, a blockage was put on the Dor from coming through aons, but once the line was added, the blockage was removed, so it could go back to flowing as it was. Could you explain how Elantris would be "widening the hole"? I am genuinely asking and would like to understand what you mean. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I would like to understand your statement better. From what I recall from the book and WoB, Elantris acts as an amplifier. I thought the Dor flowed through the Elantrian when they draw an aon that then determines what the Dor does. I thought that was why Raoden was experiencing pain, it kept trying to flow through him. Without the chasm line, a blockage was put on the Dor from coming through aons, but once the line was added, the blockage was removed, so it could go back to flowing as it was. Could you explain how Elantris would be "widening the hole"? I am genuinely asking and would like to understand what you mean. 

As I understand it, Elantris can essentially be thought of as a city-sized conduit directly to the Dor, and Elantrians channel this through their bodies. Which is why after Raoden teleported away from Elantris, his power in AonDor was dramatically reduced, because there he could only channel as much of the Dor as his body could obtain on its own. At least that’s how I interpreted how it works, but for all I know that could be completely wrong though. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

@Calderis Is that more or less an accurate description of how Elantris works?