animalia

Could Moash become the new Odium?

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I was thinking that the one thing that gets a reaction out of Moash where he is now is when he sees parshendi acting like human. That whole “you have to be better thing” If he were to find out that Rayse didn’t try to better them it MIGHT encourage him to direct his hatred at him. And before you say that Moash becoming Odium would be worse let’s take a look at some of the reasons that make Rayse such a dangerous wielder of said shard. As Brandon said he is good at “lying” to himself about what the shard really is. Moash for what’s it worth would not lie to himself about it’s nature. As we can see for his many faults he NEVER lies to himself about how twisted he is. There’s also the way that as previously mentioned he uses his hatred to drive others, if not nessecarily himself at this point, to improve. Unlike Odium, who uses hatred to bring out the worst in people, Moash seems to ALMOST turn hatred into a force that makes us look at the less savory sides of ourselves that we don’t like, and through hatred of them try and do better, our hatred of the parts of society that our corrupt and acknowledge them and try to change them. That’s not an approach that can work for everyone, or is even necessarily healthy, but in SMALL CONTROLED DOSES it can be useful. He isn’t in a good place now, where he can see everything clearly. He hasn’t reached his Scar from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood watershed moment. But I COULD see him getting there eventually.

In the short term it could even make things theoretically worse for the protagonists, as his ability to be more reasonable to the Parshendi might make him tougher to fight against than Rayse, but it in the long run I think it will do a lot of good, as the’ve all got growing to do. And this might be the way for them to do it. Moash inculded of course.

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Its an interesting idea, and I think you are right that Moash might be a benevolent Odium. I really can’t tell wether it will happen though.

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Maybe Moash could even become Honor plus Odium.

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As if we need another one of those running around! ;)

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Moash definitly does have a bit of Honor left in him... Or did anyway...

Spoiler

After giving his pain to Odium, I think the only way he would be benevolent is if he reclaims his pain.  So basically a redemption arc.

I dont know... To me, Moash seems so caught up in himself that I dont think he would be in a position to pick up a shard... He definitely has the temperament, but the same way Kaladin has the temperment of Honor with a little Odium.  They are such perfect opposites.  And a few minor changes to the story and Moash and Kaladins places would be swapped.  Like Neville and Harry in Harry Potter.

I dont like the idea of making them not oposites anymore, but then Kaladin would need to take up Honor, which I would not complain if he did, it just doesnt seem like Kaladin would to me.

None of this is based on facts, this is just my opinion on this topic. : )

Based on facts, Moash probably has as good a chance as any to pick up Odium next.

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27 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

After giving his pain to Odium, I think the only way he would be benevolent is if he reclaims his pain.  So basically a redemption arc

I don't think he should get a redemption arc based on who he is at this point. It would feel forced. 

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On 10/23/2018 at 6:54 AM, animalia said:

As Brandon said he is good at “lying” to himself about what the shard really is.

Wait whoa, do we have a WoB on this? A cursory search of Arcanum doesn't pull anything up, but that would be a really nice thing to have for those arguments of Odium vs. Passion. (I am firmly on the side of "this is the Shard of hate" and Rayse is simply lying to Dalinar in an attempt to seduce him, FWIW.)

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2 minutes ago, PallonianFire said:

Wait whoa, do we have a WoB on this?

Right here. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator [PENDING REVIEW]

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

Note the entirety... He's not just lying to Dalinar. A part of him believes it. 

Edited by Calderis
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Ah, excellent. I actually think I've seen this WoB before, now that I read it.

I do think it's no surprise that he wants to be perceived as something else. When he called himself Passion in OB, it reminded me of Ruin's attempt at characterizing himself as passionate in HoA. How else are these overtly "evil" Shards supposed to get otherwise rational/"good" people to go along with them, right?

Edit: Hah, this was from JordanCon. I was in the freaking audience...no clue how I managed to forget this.

Edited by PallonianFire
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This has been my theory for a while now

humans find the dawnshards, use them to kill Rayse

Moash takes up Odium

Kaladin takes up Honor

They both kill each other

Shallan takes up both, becomes Sarcasm

end of Cosmere

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30 minutes ago, Bacon said:

This has been my theory for a while now

humans find the dawnshards, use them to kill Rayse

Moash takes up Odium

Kaladin takes up Honor

They both kill each other

Shallan takes up both, becomes Sarcasm

end of Cosmere

Best possible ending.

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I have thought about this more and I DO have some doubts on it. At least on the part where, Moash becomes the new Odium. (Because the more I think about it the more I could see him falling into the same kind of flaws as Rayse) That being said I still like the idea that he might be the Gollum/Smegol of the story of whom without the one ring/Rayse might not be destroyed.

 

EDIT: I have a new theory on who may be the new Odium, if you want to hear it.

Edited by animalia
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What would an Honor+Odium Dishard be called?

Rightous Fury?

Vengefulness?

Fanatic Hatred?

Fervency?

Xenophobia?

 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Feruchemist said:

What would an Honor+Odium Dishard be called?

Rightous Fury?

Vengefulness?

Fanatic Hatred?

Fervency?

Xenophobia?

 

 

 

 

 

I am actually thinking it's less a dishard and more like what we see in Elantris. Only with THREE MINDS joined together in a council instead of no minds.

EDIT: That combined Shardic council, by the way would be UNITY.

Edited by animalia
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4 hours ago, Feruchemist said:

What would an Honor+Odium Dishard be called?

Justice, Retribution, Punishment, Vindication?

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The issue with all these new vessels plot is that (COSMERE SPOILER BELOW)

Spoiler

It is a plot already used by mistborn which would mean if the ultimate culmination of things for the big epic is similar to mistborn.

It is incredibly predictable, bad and rehashed. Rehashed plot especially by the same author is terrible

I believe Sanderson has so much more unpredictability and creativity than just new vessels plot that could be thought by a new cosmere fan pretty easily 

Edited by goody153
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Actually rather than being Oadium I think Cultivation suits Moash better for this reason. Brandon said that the shardvessals think that they think they took the shard because they felt they had a “part” of themselves” missing. Well all we have seen Moash. Do is tear things down but he sees that others HAVE to do better. In short they have to GROW but he RESISTS this inhimself so he would fight against the shards impulse. The way a shardholder is supposed to do.

Edited by animalia
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9 minutes ago, animalia said:

Brandon said that the shardvessals think that they think they took the shard because they felt they had a “part” of themselves” missing.

Can you show where this is? Because that is not the impression I got at all. The better a Vessel aligns with the intent of the Shard, the less pushback they get and the longer they can last as an individual. 

10 minutes ago, animalia said:

Well all we have seen Moash. Do is tear things down but he sees that others HAVE to do better. In short they have to GROW but he RESISTS this inhimself so he would fight against the shards impulse. The way a shardholder is supposed to do.

This... Fighting directly against the intent is how you end up overwhelmed and completely lost, like Ati and Ruin. 

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Resisting the shard intent would be a disaster. Embracing it gives the vessel control (e.g. Odium as an obvious one).

(cosmere spoilers again)

Spoiler

The very reason Sazed was perfect vessel for Ruin compared to Ati was simply because he didn't see the nature of change/death as an anomaly or something malicious but rather something very natural.

He didn't reject the shard intent. He embraced the ideal and he gotten control(he wasn't omnicidal) 

 

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On 11/6/2018 at 6:12 PM, goody153 said:

Resisting the shard intent would be a disaster. Embracing it gives the vessel control (e.g. Odium as an obvious one).

(cosmere spoilers again)

  Reveal hidden contents

The very reason Sazed was perfect vessel for Ruin compared to Ati was simply because he didn't see the nature of change/death as an anomaly or something malicious but rather something very natural.

He didn't reject the shard intent. He embraced the ideal and he gotten control(he wasn't omnicidal) 

 

I thought the problem WAS that Odium embraced the hatred. In any case I would give a link if I knew how but I don’t know how to search for these things. If you can tell me how to search please tell me. That being said my theory for the new cultivation is not limited to Moash. Cultivation has MANY possibilities which makes it hard to pin down. Moash was just the first to come to mind. I have a better theory towards, Odium.

 

But perhaps you can help me learn how to search the WOBs first?

 

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4 hours ago, animalia said:

I thought the problem WAS that Odium embraced the hatred. In any case I would give a link if I knew how but I don’t know how to search for these things. If you can tell me how to search please tell me. That being said my theory for the new cultivation is not limited to Moash. Cultivation has MANY possibilities which makes it hard to pin down. Moash was just the first to come to mind. I have a better theory towards, Odium.

 

But perhaps you can help me learn how to search the WOBs first?

 

The problem is actually Rayse himself(cause so far with educated guess from us he is most likely an cremhole) and well partly that Odium as a shard is "gods divine wrath without context" or if you are a believer of passion == Odium then "emotions without context" stuff sounds like something that will end up with horrible things. 

So the less you fight against the shard. The better control you have and the better you retain yourself into translating the shards intent (

Spoiler

which is why Sazed's Ruin isn't so crazy like Ati's .. the Hero of Ages epigraphs kinda depict that how he views Ruin as he seems so casual about it rather than the hellbent kind

)

This is where we get the WoB's btw.

https://wob.coppermind.net/

Alternatively tho not as many here (cause this is mainly Robert Jordan's words but there are some Sanderson here):

https://www.theoryland.com/

Actually there are some good stuff in the annotations about the shards stuff and just about anything in general which can be found in 

https://brandonsanderson.com/

 

Hope that helps !

Edited by goody153
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