HSuperLee

Killing a Gold Compounder

62 posts in this topic

Ah, right, now I remember that. I hadn't remembered the detail about catching TLR in an "inn", but I was pretty sure I'd remember it if he'd HAD an inn :)

That is something I've kind of wondered about, how long did it take Rashek to go around conquering the world (well, the Northern Hemisphere) after his Ascension? It seemed to take a while, there was resistance, and he used those lerasium beads to recruit and to create Mistborn allies who would then found the great noble houses of the Final Empire.

But think about it. Imagine yourself one of the citizens or leaders of the resisting nations. You've just seen the world get completely changed in a short span of time - the continents moved around, the sky now filled with ash, the plants have gone brown, etc., etc. At least some countries that used to exist would literally not have existed any more, in a very physical sense. Wouldn't there be complete chaos, into which he could step as a stabilizing leader rather than acting as a conqueror of a series of standing nations?

In fact, Alendi had already (in his supposed role as the Hero of Ages) done a lot to "unify" (conquer) the nations of the world. As far as his subordinate deputies knew, Alendi had gone off to the Terris mountains to fulfill his destiny, alone but for some Terris guides, presumably planning to return afterward. Then, the world changes and moves around - apparently the destiny in question, which they didn't witness - and lo!, this guy Rashek rolls into whatever was left of Khlennisburg, the capital city of the empire that Alendi had built, and proclaims himself the new emperor by right of divine succession, with the awesome powers to prove it.

Who's gonna say, nah, let's get together and resist this claim? Similar to how a lot of Ministry obligators (Yomen excepted) simply chose to work with Elend in The Hero of Ages as a way to keep a functioning government operating, I'd think Rashek wouldn't have to travel around sleeping in inns in between getting beheaded and flayed (I guess he could still sleep, early on, before he had to constantly tap bronze to stay awake to constantly tap atium to stay young).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My argument for for Rashek basically having permanent self awareness, even when given severe head trauma can be summed up (in weakest to strongest) as:

1) Pain immunity from f-gold and pewter.

2) Being basically the most powerful tineye ever, and tin having been shown to increase awareness.

3) Compounded zinc.

 

As for how long it would have taken Rashek to take over everything, if the people were mostly (kinda sorta maybe) United due to Alendi, then I can imagine that word of Rashek spread quickly. I'm assuming even if he learned about compounding from the Well, it probably took some practice to get right, so he might not have been a physical god instantly, but no one had even seen allomancy like his before. Once word spreads, any king that happens to not be a good man (and let us look to history for how rare those are, or the second book) would get signing up for the power her was offering. At that point, I imagine it would take only a few years for his influence to spread across the planet, with Rashek himself only needing to intervene when his army of many kingdoms was slowed by alliances between large forces.

So basically, I'd imagine he took over the world in no more than 30 years.

Edited by HSuperLee
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@robardin like many of Rashek's policies, I think the unrest and conflict were mainly his own fault.

Rashek was a vindictive and petty man. He could have done as you say, but that would have required him to make some kind of sacrifices to appease people. 

Quote

sherlockeb

Why did Rashek feel the need to create skaa and nobility, why not alter all humanity to be nobles if you have the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Rashek, particularly back then, was a petty man. This caused him to do many things that, strictly speaking, were not best for his empire.

source

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you use a poison to paralyze the compounder before taking their reserves, as far as I know it only seems to care about pyhsical injurys so would it burn the poison? Basically this is a different version of the slow time tact.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MrFish said:

Could you use a poison to paralyze the compounder before taking their reserves, as far as I know it only seems to care about pyhsical injurys so would it burn the poison? Basically this is a different version of the slow time tact.

We've seen Wayne burn out the effects of alcohol with gold. That would indicate it affects poisons too.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suffocation?  Given that it takes a separate Metal to store Breath, they'd be left healing the actual cell damage from asphyxiation as it accumulates, and it should run down their reserves with a problem they cannot permanently solve with the Gold.  It would probably take longer than setting them on Fire, and if they are desperate a Self-Tracheostomy might still get them past whatever strangulation tools were used.  But it's a reasonable "Hang on until they stop twitching" method, would be slow but technically possible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the only way to kill a gold compounder is to:

1) Use cadmium to slow time allowing you to gang the compounder with shear numbers and hope he don't have dynamite.

2) Use two atium spikes ( or another metal like trellium or one of the temporal/hybrid metals that may be able to remove these attributes) to remove both attributes, very hard and only marsh has atium now. Even harder as the dual metal arrow/bullet wouldn't work due to bind points(if I'm getting those correct).

3) Possibly suffocation

4) Make them believe that the fatal injury you just inflicted is part of there true self altering their spirit web making it so they can't heal that injury. How one could do this is beyond me.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, MrFish said:

So, the only way to kill a gold compounder is to:

1) Use cadmium to slow time allowing you to gang the compounder with shear numbers and hope he don't have dynamite.

2) Use two atium spikes ( or another metal like trellium or one of the temporal/hybrid metals that may be able to remove these attributes) to remove both attributes, very hard and only marsh has atium now. Even harder as the dual metal arrow/bullet wouldn't work due to bind points(if I'm getting those correct).

3) Possibly suffocation

4) Make them believe that the fatal injury you just inflicted is part of there true self altering their spirit web making it so they can't heal that injury. How one could do this is beyond me.

Looking outside the Sphere, as a modification of Number 4 you could use Forgery to temporarily remove their Gold and/or Feruchemy.  If you can stamp them while not actively burning metals, they shouldnt have any unusual levels of personal Investiture that would block Forgery.

Similarly, one of the more broadly useful (possibly even cheaty) tricks cosmere-wide seems to be to Soulcast the air around somebody into a solid block of Aluminum.  I think this would be able to capture just about anyone including a Fullborn like the Rashek, though the final Cause of Death would likely still be suffocation. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Quantus per Miles holding his breath for steady shooting, gold may not provide oxygen, but it readily heals the damage of deprivation. 

Edited by Calderis
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus per moles holding his breath for steady shooting, gold may not provide oxygen, but it readily heals the damage of deprivation. 

Absolutely, it would still be healing the ongoing cell death from the asphyxiation, so at best it's going to be easier to manage than trapping him in an open fire long enough to work through his reserves.  If you are talking about just a Gold Twinborn it opens up a lot of trap designs, though most of them would still benefit strongly from some Chromium (with or without an Ettmetal delivery system).  A fullborn is going to be a lot harder because they're more capable of breaking open whatever box you trap them in; that's where a soulcast block of aluminum would be really useful, to shut down all their tangible powers, if not all their internal healing.    

 

If I happened to have infinite Scadrial resources, I think I'd go for a one/two punch of Ettmetal grenades, start with Chromium, kick them into a pit of concrete, then as soon as they are blinded hit the whole thing with a Pulser charged Ettmetal grenade.  If it doesnt hold them long enough for their reserves to run dry at least you bought youself a lot of time. Assuming of course the Fullborn doesnt notice and counter the temporal shenanigan. 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fairly certain a Fullborn could physically rip their way out of a block of aluminum before their metalminds run out.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I'm fairly certain a Fullborn could physically rip their way out of a block of aluminum before their metalminds run out.

Depends on how big the block is and how much room they have to move inside, though even if you did just coat them in liquid metal and have it solidify, if they had enough heat stored in their bronze, they could just melt their way out, I guess.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why does the block have to be aluminium? Silver is allomanticly neutral and has a higher melting point and is cheaper in universe.

Edit: More plentiful so possibly cheaper

Edited by MrFish
Elaboration
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MrFish said:

Why does the block have to be aluminium? Silver is allomanticly neutral and has a higher melting point and is cheaper in universe.

Edit: More plentiful so possibly cheaper

Silver is allomantically inert, meaning it doesn't provide a power. It can still be effected by Allomancy and has no negation effects. That is unique to aluminum. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Also can someone give me a link to the WoB place?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As per Word of Brandon Canon, you can electrocute them to keep them stunned.

Quote

ShadowBlaze [PENDING REVIEW]

If a gold Ferring got electrocuted, would he get paralyzed and/or heal and [react normally]?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So he gets electrocuted. You're asking does Cosmere healing prevent you from being stunned by a taser?

Huh, what a good question. I'm going to say, and I could contradict this, so this is Word of Brandon canon until I contradict it, you could still stun them with electrical stimulation of muscles, because it's not doing any harm and it's just how muscles normally work. So I think that's a good workaround.

source

So you could do this, then strip off the metalminds and bring in a leecher, or just use the opportunity to spike them while they're down. Or just capture them I suppose.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

We've seen Wayne burn out the effects of alcohol with gold. That would indicate it affects poisons too.

You are probably right, but do I have to wonder:  that's a poison you can already naturally metabolize over time.  If it were a more terminal poison would they still be able to recover?  Or go exotic and spike them with radioactive materials for the poison.  It could heal the damage to the cells and most likely the DNA damage/mutations, but would it be able to actually purge the irradiated elements if the body didnt already have systems and/or mechanisms to remove it (the way it does with alcohol)?

 

Im still just thinking about the most effective way to force attrition on their Gold reserves. 

14 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

I'm fairly certain a Fullborn could physically rip their way out of a block of aluminum before their metalminds run out.


That plan would be banking on the idea that being completely surrounded by Aluminum would prevent you from tapping Strength the same way it can prevent gold from healing a wound while still in contact with it.  And a soulcast block wouldnt give them any room to grow, so I think they'd either be unable to tap the power at all, or start crushing themselves when they swelled. 

 

13 hours ago, MrFish said:

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Also can someone give me a link to the WoB place?

Click on the "Arcanum" up at the top of the page. 

Edited by Quantus
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

You are probably right, but do I have to wonder:  that's a poison you can already naturally metabolize over time.  If it were a more terminal poison would they still be able to recover?  Or go exotic and spike them with radioactive materials for the poison.  It could heal the damage to the cells and most likely the DNA damage/mutations, but would it be able to actually purge the irradiated elements if the body didnt already have systems and/or mechanisms to remove it (the way it does with alcohol)?

There was also that time Wayne drank poisoned tea, collapsed, and got up a few moments later. We don't know if that was a posion that could theoretically be metabolised, but I wouldn't be surprised if gold has a way to deal with it, since gold's effect can loosely be summarized as, "Makes you what you're supposed to be."

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, HSuperLee said:

There was also that time Wayne drank poisoned tea, collapsed, and got up a few moments later. We don't know if that was a posion that could theoretically be metabolised, but I wouldn't be surprised if gold has a way to deal with it, since gold's effect can loosely be summarized as, "Makes you what you're supposed to be."

Ya, that's where gold always gets weird for me, especially when you are talking things like indirect damage sources (like the radiation powder poison example), semi-natural threats like cancer,  or things that bump up against other powers like those that support the body's needs like air, food (another power that may or may not counter poison), or heat.  Can Gold alone prevent you from freezing to death? It could fix cell damage from frostbite but eventually water will turn to ice, so... 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why overcomplicate. Depending on WoB either a Nicroburst or Aluminium Grenade to use the weakness that compounder puts on himself - storing most of the reserves in his body for constant multiplication.. Not sure how/whether the Aluminium grenade would work - will it extend the effect on any allomancer around?

If it's nicroburst you get the extra effect of mental instability in the target - how well can you handle the "ultimate" alternate version of you?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the Shard!

15 minutes ago, Morindal said:

If it's nicroburst you get the extra effect of mental instability in the target - how well can you handle the "ultimate" alternate version of you?

Two issues with trying to Nicroburst reserves away: First, it only works on allomancy and requires the target to be actively burning metals so that the effect knows which metals to enhance. A gold compounder who's only tapping stored health isn't going to trigger the effect and you're not going to do anything to their metalminds. Also, we know that a Leecher can run out of their metal before their target runs out of theirs so this should hold true with the opposite case where someone trying to Nicroburst an allomancer into running out of metal runs out of duralumin before the other party runs out of their metal.

Second, even if you Nicrobursted someone actively using A-Gold, it's not an 'ultimate' version of you, you're just seeing the entire effect much faster. Given how nobody seems to use a lot of gold at once it's probably not going to be that different from an ordinary use of A-Gold and would only be uncomfortable if the person actually tried touching their gold shadow.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ookla the Gralsritter said:

Welcome to the Shard!

Two issues with trying to Nicroburst reserves away: First, it only works on allomancy and requires the target to be actively burning metals so that the effect knows which metals to enhance. A gold compounder who's only tapping stored health isn't going to trigger the effect and you're not going to do anything to their metalminds. Also, we know that a Leecher can run out of their metal before their target runs out of theirs so this should hold true with the opposite case where someone trying to Nicroburst an allomancer into running out of metal runs out of duralumin before the other party runs out of their metal.

Second, even if you Nicrobursted someone actively using A-Gold, it's not an 'ultimate' version of you, you're just seeing the entire effect much faster. Given how nobody seems to use a lot of gold at once it's probably not going to be that different from an ordinary use of A-Gold and would only be uncomfortable if the person actually tried touching their gold shadow.

Was basing my theory off Miles Dagouter, who if I recall correctly, constantly tapped gold allomantically to further increase his feruchemical reserves (and later due to the body's addiction?). Second, unlike the leecher, effect of nicrosil misting is immidiate and uncontrolled (insta-boost like duraluminium) so it's also unlikely the reserve in you would get correctly compounded and converted to feruchemical charge if you were wearing some extra gold on you (since all the gold in your system gets wiped).

Thing with Nicrobursts is you don't expect them to be used offensively against the other side due to unforseen ramifications when they flare the enemy. But the grenade kinda offsets that by keeping the misting hidden/supporting his side when needed.

The boosted gold shadow was just an extra point. Your argument that nobody ever tries to flare A-gold is exactly the reason I'd look for odd behavior :) But that requires some canonized answers. Similar to how Elend using dura-atium was described as all-knowing chessmaster in one of WoB (I'm paraphrasing now), it could go pretty crazy with the gold.

Edited by Morindal
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Morindal at this point until show differently that, like duralumin, nicrosil isn't actually "instantaneous" though it seems that way.

It massively increases the burn rate of a metal. Which is why Weltall said it should function similarly to Chromium. With enough metal, the nicrosil could run out first. 

It also doesn't give anything extra, just accelerated. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry but I have to disagree. Quoting Ars Arcanum from Bands of Mourning you get the exact same wording as for duralumin and Nicrosil:

Nicrosil: Nicroburst Mistings who burn nicrosil while touching another Allomancer will instantly burn away any metals being burned by that Allomancer, releasing an enormous (and perhaps unexpected) burst of those metals' powers within the Allomancer.

While Chromium speaks of "wiping". I know that Khriss may be biased in her descriptions but if not proven otherwise I'd count Nicrosil as Duralumin external counterpart (as stated in Coppermind). I know that it sounds more alike to Chromium (with flipped effect) but these are current descriptions.

We can argue on this all night long but as you said - sounds like canon use/clarification is needed.. I'd still rather learn if aluminium could work the way I described or would it just be a bust..

Edited by Morindal
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I can’t see any resonable method of killing a fullborn. The pewter, steel and gold compounding they are effectively a combo of the Hulk, Flash and Wolverine. The idea that you could ever get the drop in one is completely laughable. They could live in a constant state of compounded zinc and steel. The rest of the world would move around them like they were in a speed bubble. Throw in the fact that they can compound Nicrosil to temorarlily change their level of Investiture, and they can almost ascend for short periods of time. All things considered a well prepared fullborn is probably only slightly less dangerous than Nightblood.

 

to address the original topic of the thread, I imagine that complete disintegration would work quite well against double gold. I think that Elantrians can disintegrate someone. I’d have to reread the chapter, but I’m pretty sure Raoden kills one of the monks that way. The surges of destruction and transformation would probably be pretty effective as well. You could turn them to ash or crystal instantly, though given that gold healing is spiritual rather than biological, they might still be able to heal from it. I suppose you could also just soulcast the air around them into something solid and then just leave them in there. You could let Nightblood eat them obviously.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.