Why do the wikis refer to Ym as a Truthwatcher?

[Aleksiel]

It's a good point I also thought of. However, Lift doesn't mention to see spren any differently after she visited the Nightwatcher. Not that she sees another spren in her interlude, yet I'd expect Brandon would have foreshadowed something so important. 

 

The lack of Paliah's icon in Ym's interlude might be due to the main topic of the chapter - caring for the forgotten and abandoned, but I think the double Vedel icon is another argument for Ym being an Edgedancer. The chapter can be interpreted very well with Paliah's attributes, because Ym was learning (new experiences) and giving (shoes), so why no Paliah's icon then? But it also has no Nin icon unlike Lift's interlude. So, I'm sure where I'm going with this.

 

On the 'use the light' remark, I read it as the spren telling him to inhale stormlight. I suppose this just adds up to the things that can go either way. Has Brandon said anything about Ym?  

[Sphinx]

I think Ym is a Truthwatcher, with about 90% certainty. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to argue the other 10%.

 

No that would not work out with Ym's Spren whispering to him "No"    "Light" just before Darkness killed him.    Ym's Spren was trying to get him to Lightweave to escape from Darkness.    He was not telling him to use Friction.

 

Ym was a Truthwatcher.

 

It is debateable that this is what Ym's spren meant. He may have been suggesting lightweaving (assuming lightweaving is an application of illumination and not a mixture of illumination of transformation). Or just suggesting light and illusions in general.  Or he might have been saying to use the stormlight to escape via friction, or to use the stormlight to survive being attacked by a shardblade.

 

 

Wyndle is Abrasion and Growth, and Wyndle grows around to move and also has crystals that grow out of him, giving him a rough appearance. (Yeah, it's a stretch on Abrasion.)

 

 

 

The spren had been coming more often lately— specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam. He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before. It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows.

 

Now, I think you're right, that Ym's spren's movement is described as essentially the opposite of Wyndle's, which suggests that they are, in fact, different spren. And the vocabulary of Ym's spren emphasizes the light aspects of its appearance, whereas Wyndle's emphasizes the crystalline aspects, but, I think there's enough similarity here to justify wondering if they are actually the same type of spren, and that the differences lie more with Lift's oddities. They are certainly a lot more similar than any other two spren we've seen, even Pattern and Ivory who also share a surge.

 

We know that Pattern manifests markedly differently in Shadesmar than he does in the physical realm, even though some characteristics remain the same. Therefore it's not entirely out of the question that Lift, being partly in the cognitive realm, sees Wyndle differently. She doesn't mention seeing other spren differently, but, honestly, there's a lot Lift doesn't mention, including whether or not she can "touch" other spren like she does Wyndle. If she can't, then maybe she sees Wyndle differently, while other spren haven't changed. If she can, maybe she sees all spren differently, but doesn't bother to think about it because food.

 

 

 

He embodies his Order's fundamentals perfectly - he learns from all the urchins he talks to about their life story, and you can definitely work Giving into what he does with the shoes.

Thing is, from what we know of Ym, he would also embody the Edgedancer fundamentals perfectly. He brings both love and healing to the urchins he cares for. He also seems well on his way to embodying the first ideal of the edgedancers "remembering those who have been forgotten." According to Nalan, the Edgedancers "would ignore things of great import in favor of smaller things, as some would see it" which seems as fitting for Ym as for Lift. The Truthwatchers were described as esoteric and secretive, and Ym, excepting his deception about the spheres, seems to not be. All in all, Ym's behaviour and experiences with his spren seem far more similar to Lift's than to the tiny bit we know about Renarin's.

 

As I said, I do think Ym is a Truthwatcher, mostly due to the appearance and behaviour of his spren. I think people do have a decent case that Ym gives an impression of being an Edgedancer in his behavior. I think listing him as a suspected but uncomfirmed Truthwatcher is a reasonable approach at this point in time.

 

 

 

Edited to rephrase in a way less likely to derail the thread.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sphinx

[Sylveris]

@Sphinx, since when Lightweaving is compounding of Illumination and Transformation? I'm pretty sure the technique is only Illumination, and the Lightweavers mastery of it gave them there name, but remember that other shardworlds as Lightweaving as well, its just the cosmere term for creating illusions with magic (light and sound)

[Aleksiel]

The Ars Arcanum author defies lightweaving as:

 

the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere.

 

So, it appears to be part of Ilumination. Whether or not the AAA is correct, is another question. For now, I assume both Lightweavers and Truthwatcher are able to lightweave.

[Sphinx]

@Sphinx, since when Lightweaving is compounding of Illumination and Transformation? I'm pretty sure the technique is only Illumination, and the Lightweavers mastery of it gave them there name, but remember that other shardworlds as Lightweaving as well, its just the cosmere term for creating illusions with magic (light and sound)

 

The full quote from the Ars Arcanum author is this:

 

LIGHTWEAVING A second form of Surgebinding involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere. Unlike the variations present on Sel, however, this method has a powerful Spiritual element, requiring not just a full mental picture of the intended creation, but some level of connection to it as well. The illusion is based not simply upon what the Lightweaver imagines, but upon what they desire to create. In many ways, this is the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant, which excites me. I wish to delve more into this ability, with the hope to gain a full understanding of how it relates to Cognitive and Spiritual attributes.

 

Lightweaving is defined as "a second form of Surgebinding involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere."

 

Please note that it involves something common throughout the cosmere. It is not, in fact, Lightweaving that is common throughout the cosmere, but "the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics." Furthermore, the author goes on to talk about how, unlike the "variations" on illusory tactics present on Sel,  "this method" (Lightweaving) has a powerful Spiritual element. It is this spiritual element that makes Lightweaving the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant.

 

We don't actually know what these other illusory tactics are called. I have never seen any WoB calling them Lightweaving, except the original Yolish variant, which, like Lightweaving on Roshar, contains the spiritual component. So where does that spiritual component come from? I would argue Transformation. Truthwatchers have access to the Illumination surge. They do not Lightweave. I absolutely do not believe that Lightweavers are only named after one of their surges when every other order seems to be named after things that involve both their surges. I may be being more assertive in my opinion than this warrants, but I do believe that it is confusing and a disservice to the magic system to forget about the transformation aspect of lightweaving.

 

This is something that Pattern even calls out when discussion how Shallan's use of illusions has transformed people demonstrating her affinity with "transformation". Transformation is not just about soulcasting. I think it's also worth noting that when Hoid is talking to Shallan about what she can do, he talks about how she does not yet understand the nature of truths and lies and their interactions. I think this signals that this aspect is fundamental to "Lightweaving" as a whole, and that this is somewhat separate from the Illumination surge.

 

I believe the Ars Arcanum passage is intended to direct us to better understand the power of Lightweaving, that only the Order named after it can do, not to suggest that LIghtweaving is something all people who use illumination can do. It's mostly us readers who have conflated Lightweaving and Illumination, there is a distinction in the text.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sphinx

[Sylveris]

You do know that other surges manipulate Spiritual bonds, right? If I'm not mistaken, there is a WoB somewhere describing Gravitation surge as manipulating spiritual bonds between objects, and neither Skybreakers nor Windrunners have Transformation.

Also note that I said it exist in on form or another on other shardworlds, not that it common all over the cosmere (as a fact, it's called Lightweaving on Yolen, and the AAA called it 'the most simillar variant', suggesting there are other variants of Lightweaving in the cosmere).

 

Illumination is described as 'the surge of light, sound and various waveforms', while Lightweaving is described as 'manipulation of light and sound in illusiony tactics', which is covered by Illumination, suggesting that Truthwatchers, who can control light and sound, can make illusions, and therefor Lightweave.

On the other hand, Transformation is described as 'the surge of soulcasting', aka the ability to change the material from which the object is made to another (and the definition of 'transformation' is changing the form or attribute of an object/person/etc.), which, at least for now, doesn't take any place in Lightweaving. e.g. Shallan can Lightweave a shield in front of her self, but should some on shoot an arrow at it, the arrow will just go through it and hit Shallan, since it's just a trick of the light, an illusion, and not a real object Shallan create.

 

Edit: btw, there is a difference between Lightweaving and Illumination, just like the difference between Basic Lashing and Gravitation, on is the Surge itself that the Radiant as access to, and its general (theoretical) power, while the other is a more specific implementation of the surge.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sylveris

[Sphinx]

Yes, I am aware that other surges have spiritual components. I'm arguing, however, that with Lightweaving (as it appears on Roshar, at least. Obviously Yolish lightweaving doesn't use the surges), the transformation surge contributes to the spiritual component. I think I'm reading the ars arcanum fairly differently from you, so I'll try to highlight how I'm reading it to make it clear.

 

The quote says that Lightweaving involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics. Illumination is "the surge of light, sound and various waveforms." Therefore I read this as Lightweaving involves Illumination, so Illumination is a component of Lightweaving. I did not interpret this to mean that Lightweaving is an application of only the Illumination surge.  "The illusion is based not simply upon what the Lightweaver imagines, but upon what they desire to create." It's this desire to create that brings in the transformative aspects of Lightweaving. I also read "variations" as variations of illusory tactics, not as variations of "lightweaving."

 

Transformation is described as the "surge of soulcasting" yes. We've primarily seen soulcasting in the form of turning things into one or another of the ten essences. However the name "soulcasting" invokes a very spiritual component, and, as I mentioned, Pattern specifically calls out Shallan's demonstration of the Transformation surge in what she is doing by inspiring others when in the Frost Lands.

 

Although looking back, I do see him also referring to Lightweaving as the manipulation of light. But I still think there's some sort of distinction of the Lightweaving the Lightweavers do, and the illusions that Truthwatchers can create with the Illumination surge. And I think that difference ties into the Ars Arcanum's excitement about Lightweaving and its relationship to the Yolish equivalent.

 

Anyway, this is thoroughly off topic for this thread. We could maybe continue the conversation somewhere else if you like? I can also edit my original post to make my point with less derailing word choice.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Sphinx

[Reborn radiant]

Quote

Totally irrelevant to the origin of this unit, but it strikes me as the perfect placement. As much time as I spent with Team Sanderson last weekend, we spent oddly little time talking about the books. One question I did ask Brandon, though, was whether Ym was an Edgedancer. We both acknowledged that with the healing thing, he had to be either an Edgedancer or a Truthwatcher, of course. He pointed out that Ym’s spren doesn’t look at all like Wyndle, which I countered by saying that I thought the Ym’s spren manifested the way Wyndle would if you couldn’t see the Cognitive Realm. He just smiled… and said something like, “I’m going to RAFO that. You’re very wise, and I put the description in for a reason, but I’m going to RAFO for now.”

From : https://www.tor.com/2015/08/27/words-of-radiance-reread-chapter-52/

I got the link and the quote from stormlight wiki. 

For all of you who are saying use the light meant use lightweaving, don't you think use the light meant use the stormlight to run faster or something like that? Because that is how I interpreted it. 

Sorry for bringing up an oldpost!

[Gigalemesh]

24 minutes ago, Reborn radiant said:

From : https://www.tor.com/2015/08/27/words-of-radiance-reread-chapter-52/

I got the link and the quote from stormlight wiki. 

For all of you who are saying use the light meant use lightweaving, don't you think use the light meant use the stormlight to run faster or something like that? Because that is how I interpreted it. 

Sorry for bringing up an oldpost!

There's a WoB linked on the coppermind article for Ym that just straight up confirms Ym was a truthwatcher, so there's no more debate about it.

However I did also read it as just use stormlight.

[Reborn radiant]

3 hours ago, Gigalemesh said:

There's a WoB linked on the coppermind article for Ym that just straight up confirms Ym was a truthwatcher, so there's no more debate about it.

 

Ah. Can you please post the WoB here? Theoryland is blocked where I live for some reason :( 

[Aleksiel]

Here's the WoB:

 

Quote

 

TED HERMAN

Ym is confirmed to not be an Edgedancer. Does that mean that he would have become a Truthwatcher?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

 

 

However (Edgedancer spoiler)

Spoiler

we learned Wyndle had considered Ym, thus a person can attract more than one type of radiant spren.

 

 

[Reborn radiant]

6 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Here's the WoB:

 

Thank you!

[Borio Singaldi]