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StormblessedSurvivor

9 Orders of Knights Radiant

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At the end of Oathbringer, Dalinar noticed that there were only nine orders of Radiants. We know that Malata of the Releasers is with Taravangian, and I've been thinking that this may be the order Dalinar noticed missing. Also there were only nine orders of the Fused. I feel like they have all the orders except for Bondsmith, which means they would only have nine orders. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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Dalinar was looking for humans. 

He didn't count Venli. 

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She's pretty likely to be a Willshaper, yeah.

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And the interesting thing here is that Ash was included in the nine, implying that she may become a Dustbringer down the road (and that would make sense, since we need a Dustbringer book and we know she's getting one in the back 5).

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Isn't she a Herald? I find it unlikely that a Herald would become a Knight Radiant...but I suppose Nalan did do it.

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Anyone can become a Herald by attracting a spren, and Ash seems quite fond of taking things apart now :)

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Did Jezrien's death do anything to Ash besides her feeling it?

 

And yes I know people have said Jezrien isn't actually dead, but Ash said that someone killed her father

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Pssst, double-posting is bad form. Next time just edit your most recent post if you have anything to add.

2 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

Do we know what order Venli is? Willshaper perhaps?

Venli's spren Timbre is a Willshaper spren, which we can deduce through a chain of conversations. Timbre conveys to Venli the idea that her grandfather was 'killed' in the Recreance. Ico mentions that his father is a Deadeye and his daughter left to 'go chase foolish dreams'. Ergo, Timbre is Ico's daughter. Ico is a lightspren and they're confirmed to be the ones who bond with Willshapers.

Quote

Pagerunner [PENDING REVIEW]

Lightspren, the ones who like to travel, are they the Willshaper spren? I thought it was pretty obvious. 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah.

source

Even if Brandon hadn't confirmed this, we could assume the lightspren are associated with the Willshapers since they match what we know of that Order (via the in-universe Words of Radiance) so well and like Pagerunner said in the WoB, it was pretty obvious.

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2 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

At the end of Oathbringer, Dalinar noticed that there were only nine orders of Radiants. We know that Malata of the Releasers is with Taravangian, and I've been thinking that this may be the order Dalinar noticed missing. Also there were only nine orders of the Fused. I feel like they have all the orders except for Bondsmith, which means they would only have nine orders. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar was looking for humans. 

He didn't count Venli. 

Yes, there were 10, one representing each of the 10 surge pairings. He counts the Heralds as Radiants even though technically they are a very different thing. What he's really doing is counting book main flashback characters for each of the 10 SA books which he should have no knowledge of. This is a bit too meta for me. I don't like that he's counting main characters in the middle of this battle.  

I'd prefer if Brandon hadn't highlighted it and left it unsaid that this is the first time all the book main characters are gathered in the same place at the same time. That way it would be a neat little thing if readers notice it and if not that's fine. It is a little meta and on the nose to call it out. 

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1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Pssst, double-posting is bad form. Next time just edit your most recent post if you have anything to add.

Sorry...I'm new here

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1 hour ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

Sorry...I'm new here

Don't worry about it too much, just wanted to point it out for the future. Welcome to the Shard!

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2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

What he's really doing is counting book main flashback characters for each of the 10 SA books which he should have no knowledge of. 

He's not actually. He feel there should be a tenth because he's connected to the Spiritual Realm, a time independent realm, at that moment. If he weren't biased, he should have picked up Venli, but he is, rightfully, as she appears to be standing with Odium. 

I don't think it's "these are the ten orders" or "these are the ten main characters!" but more "These are the ten of us who will be connected at the center of things" 

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In the Spiritual Realm I think it's been said that you are the "perfect you". And the perfect Dalinar would presumably know that.

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15 hours ago, Calderis said:

He's not actually. He feel there should be a tenth because he's connected to the Spiritual Realm, a time independent realm, at that moment. If he weren't biased, he should have picked up Venli, but he is, rightfully, as she appears to be standing with Odium. 

I don't think it's "these are the ten orders" or "these are the ten main characters!" but more "These are the ten of us who will be connected at the center of things" 

That's a good in world justification for it. He's also very Honor-like in that moment, doesn't like the #9. 10 though, that's a great number! Like when the 9 soon-to-be Heralds went to Honor with the idea for the Oathpact and he said they needed to recruit one more person.

Quote

 "THE ONE WHO WASN'T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR, OR GENERAL." - OB ch. 38 Broken People

As we discussed in this other thread 10 is either Honor's magic number or the magic number of the Roshar system. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62123-ob-nine-is-odiums-number/

 

I still don't like that Dalinar counts them in that moment. :) 

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13 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

In the Spiritual Realm I think it's been said that you are the "perfect you". And the perfect Dalinar would presumably know that.

That's not quite how it works; Brandon has said that your Spiritual template is similar to your Platonic ideal. It's the idea of 'Dalinar in a state of perfect health and all his Connections' but it's not necessarily 'Dalinar as all-knowing' or 'Dalinar having overcome every bias his upbringing has given him' for example.

Quote
The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their cognitive aspect as well, and the cognitive aspect can interfere with the spiritual aspect trying to make the physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your physical self with your spiritual self--making the physical regrow. More powerful forms of investiture can repair the soul as well.

source

There are limitations on this 'ideal' template as well. The WoB above is part of a question about aging and goes on to point out that how old you are is something your Spiritual aspect 'knows' even if you're using magic to stop the Physical effects of aging. So for example, the Platonic ideal of Dalinar is age-appropriate rather than, say, a single moment in the prime of Dalinar's youth or some point in the future where he's at his most enlightened or whatever. And as the WoB notes, your Spiritual self gets filtered by the Cognitive, point being that even if Dalinar was peeking into the Spiritual Realm he's not going to automatically be able to overcome everything he believes about the world and so make the jump that a listener could be a Radiant and the representative of the 'missing' tenth Order.

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On 18.10.2018 at 3:06 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Like when the 9 soon-to-be Heralds went to Honor with the idea for the Oathpact and he said they needed to recruit one more person.

I strongly suspect that this is not what happened - that there were always supposed to be _10_ Heralds, but one of the generals  got cold feet at the last moment and Taln stepped up to replace him. Or maybe somebody (Hoid?) convinced the general in question to recuse himself, ditto.

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Hello I am very new to all this so sincere apologies if I have messed this up, but I was intrigued by the idea of Dustbringers. In the epilogue to Oathbringer Wit does soemthing weird with dust in Kholinar - do we know what he is exactly? 

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3 hours ago, Totos said:

Hello I am very new to all this so sincere apologies if I have messed this up, but I was intrigued by the idea of Dustbringers. In the epilogue to Oathbringer Wit does soemthing weird with dust in Kholinar - do we know what he is exactly? 

Wit is using his Yolish version of Lightweaving (seen previously when he tells stories to Kaladin/Shallan).  

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12 hours ago, Totos said:

Hello I am very new to all this so sincere apologies if I have messed this up, but I was intrigued by the idea of Dustbringers. In the epilogue to Oathbringer Wit does soemthing weird with dust in Kholinar - do we know what he is exactly? 

Welcome to the Shard! We do know a little about Hoid, let's just say that when he tells Jasnah that Honor once bought him a drink and when he tells Shallan that he's not 'old', he's on an entirely different level of age, he's being completely honest. Spoilers since it involves non-Stormlight material

Spoiler

Hoid has been alive since before the Shattering of Adonalsium (the event that created the Cosmere's present-day gods like Honor, Cultivation and Odium) and has access to at least two magic systems that predate that event, his healing and the Lightweaving you've noticed. We see him use the same Lightweaving powers elsewhere and his version of the magic has a lot of functional similarities to what Shallan does, though the systems aren't exactly the same. The Ars Arcanum makes a note of this when Khriss mentions that Lightweaving on Roshar is 'the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant'.

If you're interested in Dustbringers, all we know about them for sure comes from the snippets found in the epigraphs in Words of Radiance and what we see of Malata in Oathbringer. We know that the Surge of Division splits molecular bonds rather than atoms and it can be used with a great deal of precision, to do things like create a decorative engraving.

Brandon has said that we're not going to learn too much about the Dustbringers for a while; He wants to build up the different Orders slowly and they're later in line for development. He's also said there's going to be a Dustbringer POV character but it's 'complicated'. A fairly popular assumption based on her inclusion among Dalinar's ten characters at Thaylen City is that Ash is eventually going to become a Radiant of that order, which would explain why Brandon has RAFO'd questions about the Order and the character who's going to be representing them.

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Speaking of Hoid and Lightweaving, now that he has bonded a Cryptic, will his Lightweaving still be more "natural" as Shallan described it, but also more powerful?

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17 hours ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

Speaking of Hoid and Lightweaving, now that he has bonded a Cryptic, will his Lightweaving still be more "natural" as Shallan described it, but also more powerful?

Would you be surprised if I told you that Brandon has been asked this and RAFO'd it? I thought not...

Quote

kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW]

With Hoid, we know that he's got some sort of Lightweaving, Yolen magic. If we're gonna hypothetically say that he bonds with the Cryptic, at the end of Oathbringer. Talking about resonance between magic systems, what are we going to see if he tried the two together? Would they be separate? Or would they form some sort of resonance magic system?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I'm gonna go ahead and RAFO that.

source

Brandon did also say that Hoid is hoping that he can do some creative things with Stormlight with his bond and that in this case at least he found it better to 'play by the rules' than to try and cheat the system like he's done elsewhere. The latter also made it explicit that yes, he did form a Nahel Bond in that scene. My guess is that getting Rosharan Lightweaving wasn't really a factor in bonding a Cryptic and he won't be using it too much, unless some situation comes up like Thaylen City where it would be possible to do some pretty ridiculous things with all that Stormlight. He's already got a magic that can do the same thing and the one WoB makes it sound like it's more 'access to Stormlight' that he found enticing. That and a Cryptic bond imposing the fewest restrictions on his actions compared to the alternatives was likely a factor too.

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@Weltall on the contrary, it seems Lightweaving was his goal, and that his Yolish variety has been either limited, or on the fritz somehow.

Quote

Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]

If Hoid could have picked to join any order of the Knights Radiant, regardless of the Oaths he had to swear, just the powers, would he have picked Lightweaver?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would have.

Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]

Tell me more!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Lightweaving matches him very well, he's quite familiar with it and experienced with it. He's very good at using it and he likes it.

It's the fulfillment of a long, long quest of his to finally get full access to Lightweaving.

Stormlightning [PENDING REVIEW]

Even though he had some sort of Lightweaving?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He did have some sort of, yes. He's a very very happy Hoid.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And is Hoid now, like... He can already basically Lightweave.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He can already... I would have to delve into that during <more times>, but he was limited, and he's still limited. But there's stuff that he's been trying to do for a while that he can't quite get working.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

'Cause it seemed like when he and Shallan were creating that story together of the wall...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Right, he was using her power, right? And guiding it, he wasn't doing it himself.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that something he can do in general, just help people with their powers?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Not necessarily. That was pretty special circumstances.

source

 

Edited by Calderis
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46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Weltall on the contrary, it seems Lightweaving was his goal, and that his Yolish variety has been either limited, or on the fritz somehow.

I stand corrected. xD

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