Lord Mistborn Skybreaker

Why didn’t Vin see Kelsier?

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Ok, so I was reading Secret History and I realized that Vin had on a hemalurgic spike (her earring), and was technically “broken” throughout the book, so why did she not see Kelsier like Spook did?

Is this just a rare plot-hole, or is there actually a reason?

Edited by Lord Mistborn Skybreaker
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The Spike with Spook was specifically for the purpose of connecting Spook with Kelsier, no?

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3 minutes ago, QueenOfInk said:

The Spike with Spook was specifically for the purpose of connecting Spook with Kelsier, no?

No, it was just a random inquisitor spike; that Spook used unaware of what it would do.

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Spook only saw the real Kelsier once in a dream.  And heard him whisper the "I gave you a name" line.  Everything else was just Ruin messing with him.

Sazed noted that Ruin's shard could talk at people, but Preservation's shard could listen to people's thoughts.  Just something inherent in the powers.

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12 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Spook only saw the real Kelsier once in a dream.  And heard him whisper the "I gave you a name" line.  Everything else was just Ruin messing with him.

Sazed noted that Ruin's shard could talk at people, but Preservation's shard could listen to people's thoughts.  Just something inherent in the powers.

Did you read Secret History?

Edited by Lord Mistborn Skybreaker
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28 minutes ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Ok, so I was reading Secret History and I realized that Vin had on a hemalurgic spike (her earring), and was technically “broken” throughout the book, so why did she not see Kelsier like Spook did?

Is this just a rare plot-hole, or is there actually a reason?

Bear in mind, when Kell interacted with insane (broken) people in secret history, they could kind of hear him, but not see him. And Vin did, on some level, hear what he said. Brandon put in several instances where Vin's thoughts in HoA echo what Kell was saying to her according to SH. Most notably, I suppose, is when he warned her against visiting Hoid (Drifter), but his monologue as she takes Preservation for herself is practically word for word what the narration in HoA says as well.

Edited by Caevita
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4 minutes ago, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

You did read Secret History, right?

Sure, I'll just repeat what I said before:

Ruin's shard could talk at people, but Preservation's shard could listen to people's thoughts.

pre-Catacendre any time Preservation or Kelsier tried to talk to character Ruin would block them.  Now there's just Harmony, the 2 powers are one and they're wielded by a person who finds it hard to take action.  Kel can meddle at will.

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5 minutes ago, Caevita said:

Bear in mind, when Kell interacted with insane (broken) people in secret history, they could kind of hear him, but not see him. And Vin did, on some level, hear what he said. Brandon put in several instances where Vin's thoughts in HoA echo what Kell was saying to her according to SH. Most notably, I suppose, is when he warned her against visiting Hoid (Drifter), but his monologue as she takes Preservation for herself is practically word for word what the narration in HoA says as well.

I understand all of this, my question is about this quote...

Spoiler

“See, I knew this would work. You’ve got them both now. Broken mind, Hemalurgic spike. You can see just enough into the Cognitive Realm. That means we can work together, you and I.”

Vin had both through the entire trilogy, so why did she not see Kelsier when spook did?

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1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Sure, I'll just repeat what I said before:

Ruin's shard could talk at people, but Preservation's shard could listen to people's thoughts.

pre-Catacendre any time Preservation or Kelsier tried to talk to character Ruin would block them.  Now there's just Harmony, the 2 powers are one and they're wielded by a person who finds it hard to take action.  Kel can meddle at will.

I understand, I was thinking mainly about the part where he first gets out of the Well and sits right beside her at the funeral.

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I believe it was because Ruin was actively keeping Kell away from Vin. As I recall Kell never even got close to Vin because Ruin was blocking him. Spook on the other hand was only lightly monitored by Ruin.

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1 minute ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I believe it was because Ruin was actively keeping Kell away from Vin. As I recall Kell never even got close to Vin because Ruin was blocking him. Spook on the other hand was only lightly monitored by Ruin.

Like I said above, what about the scene right after Kelsier gets out of the Well, and sits right beside Vin at the funeral.

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Kell learns that he can talk to people after that, right? I can't recall (it has been awhile since I read SH). So that particular instance was probably just lack of info on Kell's part.

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4 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

Kell learns that he can talk to people after that, right? I can't recall (it has been awhile since I read SH). So that particular instance was probably just lack of info on Kell's part.

But she should still be able to SEE him, right?

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When he's hanging around near the beginning, Kelsier's just a Cognitive Shadow with a bit more investiture than most. At the point where he manages to talk to Spook, he's a Sliver, having held Preservation for some time. So he's vastly more knowledgeable, and I suspect there's a significant power level difference between the states.

Just having a spike doesn't seem to be enough to see Cognitive Shadows as far as we've seen in the series. The person who wants to appear needs to have the power to do so as well.

Also, Vin's earring had only a very small charge left at that point.

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I don't think so. With spook he was practically dead by the time he could see Kel so he was WAY closer to the CR.... But wait.... At the end Spook "physically" sees Kell..... But at that point Kell had held a shard and should be more.... Potent?

 

Thanks RShara

Edited by Steel Inqusitive
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4 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I don't think so. With spook he was practically dead by the time he could see Kel so he was WAY closer to the CR.... But wait.... At the end Spook "physically" sees Kell..... But at that point Kell had held a shard and should be more.... Potent?

 

Thanks RShara

Makes sense.

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Spoiler

Now I'm curious! If Spook (with spike of course) were to go to Roshar would he be parshendi like? As in, able to see most spren whether the spren want him to it not?

Can't remember what forum I'm on so....spoiler tagged comment:) (even thou it's a really small spoilerB))

Edited by Steel Inqusitive
Stormlight spoiler
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I think it's a combination of: Spook+Kel having a very close connection, Ruin no longer actively blocking Kel, and Kel retaining the knowledge of how to communicate+spike from his previous ascended state.

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3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think it's a combination of: Spook+Kel having a very close connection, Ruin no longer actively blocking Kel, and Kel retaining the knowledge of how to communicate+spike from his previous ascended state.

Plus, their is this quote I only just found.

Quote

“I needed someone I could chat with,” Kelsier said . “I needed you. Someone who was broken, but who had resisted him (Ruin).

 

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On ‎16‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:45 AM, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

Ok, so I was reading Secret History and I realized that Vin had on a hemalurgic spike (her earring), and was technically “broken” throughout the book, so why did she not see Kelsier like Spook did?

Is this just a rare plot-hole, or is there actually a reason?

Vin did have that earring... but I don't think that she was technically broken.

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18 minutes ago, John Flamesinger said:

Vin did have that earring... but I don't think that she was technically broken.

Vin snapped at birth. She was "broken" the whole time. 

 

As to why she didn't see Kel... Spook didn't see him until. After the Catacendre. We know Harmony changed the way snapping worked... But prior to that no one saw Kel outside of a dream state. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

Vin snapped at birth. She was "broken" the whole time. 

 

As to why she didn't see Kel... Spook didn't see him until. After the Catacendre. We know Harmony changed the way snapping worked... But prior to that no one saw Kel outside of a dream state. 

I'm sure that Kelsier was around a lot of Allomancers while he was dead. I'm sure at least one of them had a spike, considering Ruin's plan during the final days of the Ashen World.

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3 minutes ago, John Flamesinger said:

I'm sure that Kelsier was around a lot of Allomancers while he was dead. I'm sure at least one of them had a spike, considering Ruin's plan during the final days of the Ashen World.

Which is my entire point. No one saw him pre-catacendre outside of Spook's near death dream. The only time he is seen to our knowledge by a waking person is in the final scene of SH. 

Edit: I mean, Marsh had twenty-two spikes and didn't see him. 

Edited by Calderis
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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The only time he is seen to our knowledge by a waking person is in the final scene of SH. 

To our knowledge. There might be a random skaa who saw him... Please Brandon Sanderson, help. Wait, does Brandon ever come onto 17th Shard?

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I mean she kind of saw him. Sort of. Spoiler because SH:

Spoiler

She senses what she thinks is a Mistborn jumping behind her in Hero and via SH we know that it was Kell trying to watch over her, but not getting close because Ruin.

 

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