The Grumpy Elantrian

Savantism Effects

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So what are the effects of savantism for all the metals?

AFAIK we know about Tin (as seen by Spook) and we know that pewter can be very dangerous but we don't really know the effects. There's a WoB that states bronze savants can pierce copper clouds, so presumably copper savants can create more powerful copper clouds. So what do we think the effects of savantism in the other metals would be? 

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Waxiliums steel bubble might be a savantism effect or it's a crasher thing.
I think Kelsiers ablility to push or pull on different parts of the same metalpiece was a savantism effect.

Electrum and Atium make the shadows go further than they normally would.

Aluminium savants could purge themselves of unwanted investiture (a shades touch)

 

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1 hour ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

I think Kelsiers ablility to push or pull on different parts of the same metalpiece was a savantism effect.

Brandon stated this is just kelsier being really good..

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1 hour ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Waxiliums steel bubble might be a savantism effect or it's a crasher thing.

 

It's his Resonance, not savantism. I could see steel savantism causing metal to always glow and be hard to see, even when not burning.

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Grrr... If that is his resonance I'm gonna be mad forever. I know the WoB bei g referenced and it still makes no sense. 

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27 minutes ago, Niteshado said:
2 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

I think Kelsiers ablility to push or pull on different parts of the same metalpiece was a savantism effect.

Brandon stated this is just kelsier being really good..

It's a skill level thing.  Savantism is more than just being really skilled - it has to come with a serious drawback (e.g. Spook's sensitivity, Soulcasters).  

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Kyrroti

If I were burning iron, where would the line point to on a steel hula-hoop?

Brandon Sanderson

For something like that, it would depend on the Steelpusher's power. For some, it would just be pointing generally toward the center of the hoop--but for skilled Steelpushers, they'd be able to see softer lines pointing in all directions around the hoop.

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With the multiple push/pull lines thing, I believe it's Shadows of Self, but either way, when young Wax thinks about how a bullet is technically multiple parts, he sees the one line split into three. This would indicate that the lines are based on how they perceive the metal. Kelsier probably just thought, "I'd like to affect the two ends of this bar." And since he considered it to be two ends, he had two points to push/pull.

 

The only savantism we really know anything about are bronze and tin and maybe if you stretch it, pewter. Tin we know makes you Daredevil. Blind without it, but with it you basically have a radar. I'd like to see the WoB on bronze savants, as Hero of Ages say a lot of seekers became savants accidentally due to always burning. It seems more likely that bronze savants would be like Marsh, and able to tell how quickly someone was burning a metal. Pewter maybe, maybe, gives pain immunity.

I think the problem is, whenever we see savantism, we should see a weakness that matches the strength gained. Like how Spook's body became dependent on tin to have any senses at all. So, maybe a pewter savant would become physically weak when not burning. The others metals are harder, since they're not enhancing a normal trait.

I'd guess copper savants might be able to shield anyone in their copper cloud from emotional allomancy, and when not burning have a deadened awareness to being rioted and soothed.

Oh, I guess I forgot, we do know some of what aluminum can do. I guess it's downside when not burning could be increased vulnerability to foreign investiture.

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Questioner

So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with.

Necarion

So a savant could?

Brandon Sanderson

A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there's a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there's a transfer of energy directly from the Spiritual Realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you're gonna run into that, and it's gonna be, it's gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible.

Seems to that the effects of Bendalloy Savanthood are already known

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1 minute ago, Kal-Eldin said:

Seems to that the effects of Bendalloy Savanthood are already known

It almost seems like the WoB is actually suggesting that you don't need savantism to anchor a speed bubble to yourself. Now, that's just one interpretation, and that's not a hill I'm willing to die on. But it does kind of look like he's saying, "Well yes, a savant could do it of course, but you don't need to be a savant to do it."

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On 10/16/2018 at 0:59 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

Savantism is more than just being really skilled - it has to come with a serious drawback

Savantism is when someone uses an investure ability to the point it changes their physiology. Savantism isnt based on skill, its over-use.

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6 minutes ago, Niteshado said:
On 10/16/2018 at 0:59 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

Savantism is more than just being really skilled - it has to come with a serious drawback

Savantism is when someone uses an investure ability to the point it changes their physiology. Savantism isnt based on skill, its over-use.

Yes, I know.  However, high skill level and savantism are correlated (because they both have the same cause: high usage levels).  

See this WoB that Kal-Eldin posted above:

Quote

Questioner

So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with.

...

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Yeah... If you've used a power enough to become a savant and you aren't skilled on top of the things that Savantism adds... You either have a power like pewter or bronze, where it's just a passive thing that you don't really think about what your doing, or you have been doing it seriously wrong. 

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22 hours ago, Niteshado said:

Savantism is when someone uses an investure ability to the point it changes their physiology. Savantism isnt based on skill, its over-use.

I mostly agree, but I think it's more of a spiritual realm (spirit web) change that inadvertently drives a physiological change.

Like, Spook flared tin so much that the area of his spirit web that defines how his physical body is able to receive sensory input from external stimuli was, due to a constant firehose of Tin-flavored sensory enhancement Investiture, stretched out/ripped open/cracked. As a result, he can't properly manifest a working set of senses under normal conditions, but on the flip side, his spirit web can hold more tin-flavored investiture in the cracks in his soul, so when he burns tin he gets a boosted effect.

Back to the original question, savantism for powers that don't directly modify a natural characteristic of the user which is common to non-magic users, like bronze, could very well have relatively negligible effects on the user's daily life.

On the flipside, they could also have devastating and unpredictable consequences, as a ripped up spirit web has been correlated with mental illness (no causal relation proven yet that I'm aware of). It also opens the door for greater susceptibility to foreign Investiture, IE mind control by shards and weakness to emotional allomancy.

Another possiblity is that savantism in an allomantic metal could damage the same part of the spirit web associated with the feruchemical metal of the same type. This is purely speculative. This model would have the flaw of not being common to non-Scadrian systems, but could be an elegant in world solution in future trilogies.

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45 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Back to the original question, savantism for powers that don't directly modify a natural characteristic of the user which is common to non-magic users, like bronze, could very well have relatively negligible effects on the user's daily life.

That seems reasonable, but Brandon has specifically talked about his vision of savantism, which includes having significant drawbacks to offset the additional abilities.  

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on Savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
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