Timothy Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 I've read most of Brandons books and while I love them there's something that's been bugging me for a long while. I feel like all of his characters are pretty well defined and three dimensional, which makes them relatable, but the moment they make a joke I feel like they all become the same character. Every single person has the same sort of humor or makes similar jokes and wordplays, which honestly strikes me as kind of cheap. I don't want this to turn into a thread complaining about the humor in his books, but about how the addition of it sometimes takes away the identity of characters who otherwise are three dimensional. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Humor is one of those things that is super subjective. On my first read of his books, I actually found Wayne/Lift annoying (because I was reading for plot), but upon re-reading, I really, really enjoyed those scenes. Brandon has actually talked about the various (distinct) inspirations/styles for the humor of his various characters: Jane Austen for Shallan; Oscar Wilde for Wit; uplifting, self-effacing for Lopen; innocence/sarcasm for Syl. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] The natural sarcasm in Wit, is that just purely natural? Or do you have inspiration for all of those sarcastic comments? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I often, if I have to write a lot of the character, will look for a similar humor style, and see if I can channel it. If I'm writing Wit, for instance, I'll go to somebody more biting. Some modern comedians, or occasionally Oscar Wilde. If I'm writing Shallan, I'll try to look for something softer and more wordplay-ish, like Jane Austen. And just kind of read a bunch of it, and try to get the feel. It just depends. If I'm writing Lopen, I will try to look for the kind of uplifting humor, self-effacing style. Like, I just kind of have a different style for each type, and I try to find a person or writing in the real world that has that type of humor and try to use it. source Quote Brandon Sanderson This is an interesting topic, and though I saw this early, I wanted to wait to post anything because I prefer to let discussions like this happen without author intervention, at least not immediately. I do I like talking about topics like this, though. Humor is such a curiously subjective thing. There are people who just don't get Pratchett, whom I find the funniest thing ever. Conversely, I don't generally like stand up comedians, and actively dislike some of the comedies that people on reddit love. There are people who tell me that my Mat scenes in WoT are the funniest they've read in the series; there are others who consider them absolute duds. Humor is more subjective than what we find heroic, tragic, or even beautiful. It also depends a great deal on audience buy-in and mood. This makes comedy one of the trickiest things to do in a book, because some people are just going to hate what you do. My approach has generally been a kind of shotgun blast--I try to include multiple different kinds of humor, stylized to the individual character. That way, if you don't find the humor itself funny, you at least learn what the character finds funny--and learn something about them. In Stormlight, my personal favorite is the bridge crew humor, as it is distinctly character driven. Syl's humor is a different flavor, based on innocence mixed with sarcasm. Wit is another style entirely, though I usually only let him really go when he meets someone he dislikes strongly. I have to be careful, as he's one of the few characters I allow to stray into the vulgar, and letting him go too far risks letting such things overshadow the rest of the book. Shallan's humor is based upon regency "women sit in a circle and trade witty comments" humor, of which Jane Austen was a master. Much of what the OP said in his post is correct--Shallan's fault is that she over-extends. She uses the humor as a coping mechanism, and to her, it doesn't matter if it's actually funny so long as she's stretching toward something more lighthearted than her terrible past. She tries very hard to prove herself. And she fails. Often. However, her type of "wit" is to exemplify what Vorin lighteyed women consider to be amusing or diverting. And there are people who genuinely find that kind of thing to be a blast--though Shallan isn't exactly the best at it yet. (She's not terrible either, mind you. If you don't smile at some of the things she says, it's likely this isn't your type of humor, which is just fine. Hopefully, there will be other things in the books that make you smile.) Though, that said, I'd love to read passages from other fantasy novels that people on reddit find to be actually laugh-out-loud funny. I know which ones I personally like, but it would be useful for me to see what you're liking. Feel free to PM them to me or to post them here. source Edited October 16, 2018 by Scion of the Mists 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 Humor isn't the strongest suit in these books. I do find some of the word play humor a bit grating. A lot of the wacky characters do the "You thought I was talking about one thing, but I was talking about another thing" subversion of expectations. Quote "Are you a Herald, Wit?" ... "I'm not stupid enough to get mixed up in religion again. The last seven times I tried were all disasters. I believe there's at least one god still worshipping me by accident" - OB Ch. 68 Quote "Perhaps you can help me with my predicament" "Alas" the Drifter said "Your case is hopeless." Kelsier felt his heart sink. "Yes, nothing to be done. ... You are, indeed, stuck with that face." MB:SH Part 2 Ch. 1 Quote "I need you to stay behind as we go into those slums." Wayne said ... "It's not that I don't want your help. I do. It's just going to be too dangerous for you." ... "Wayne," Wax said, walking past. "Stop talking to your hat and get over here." - Shadows of Self Chapter 3 Quote "My pa once said to me, 'Son, keep a stiff upper lip.' So if things get bad you bash your face against a wall till your lip bleeds, and you'll feel better." - Shadows of Self Epilogue Contrast those with this from Pattern that is hilarious. Because Pattern isn't trying to be funny he just misunderstands the implication of what is meant and has a positive reaction to a negative comment. Quote "Lightspren are usually guides," Azure continued. ... "Um .. you're supposed to watch out for Cryptics" Pattern hummed happily. "Yes We are very famous." - OB Ch. 93 Kata The whole interlude at the monastery in OB "Ellista" where she sneaks out to read romance novels is great because it's not characters trying to be funny and insufferably twist each others words. With Shallan I don't mind so much, it is part of her core issue of not wanting to confront uncomfortable things, she uses humor to deflect as a defense mechanism. Jashnah calls her out on it: Quote "You often seem to say the first passably clever thing that enters your mind" - WoK Chapter 29 Errorgance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 7 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said: Humor is one of those things that is super subjective. On my first read of his books, I actually found Wayne/Lift annoying (because I was reading for plot), but upon re-reading, I really, really enjoyed those scenes. Brandon has actually talked about the various (distinct) inspirations/styles for the humor of his various characters: Jane Austen for Shallan; Oscar Wilde for Wit; uplifting, self-effacing for Lopen; innocence/sarcasm for Syl. I agree that humor is very subjetive. For example, I don't like Pratchett at all, just like Brandon said. What I was getting at is more related to your first wob. I feel like even if he takes inspiration from various sources for various characters the humor always comes out along the same lines. I personally think that kind of humor may fit Shallan or Hoid, but not Adolin, Renarin or Kaladin. In Shallan particuarly those kind of "bad" jokes fit her perfectly imo, she's had a very secluded life and a lot of her knowledge about everything comes from her brothers and books. Them all always making the same jokes pulls me out of the story and in my opinion ruins the immersion. I may be biased because I don't like the humor at all, but I still think that one thing is not liking the jokes and a completely different one is every character making the same jokes, thus ruining your immersion. 4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: Humor isn't the strongest suit in these books. I do find some of the word play humor a bit grating. A lot of the wacky characters do the "You thought I was talking about one thing, but I was talking about another thing" subversion of expectations. Contrast those with this from Pattern that is hilarious. Because Pattern isn't trying to be funny he just misunderstands the implication of what is meant and has a positive reaction to a negative comment. The whole interlude at the monastery in OB "Ellista" where she sneaks out to read romance novels is great because it's not characters trying to be funny and insufferably twist each others words. With Shallan I don't mind so much, it is part of her core issue of not wanting to confront uncomfortable things, she uses humor to deflect as a defense mechanism. Jashnah calls her out on it: I don't always like Pattern's lines too much either(I didn't find the no mating part funny), but I completely get what you re getting at. That interlude was great imo, I felt like it was a perfect "light" interlude chapter. I really want to know if there are more people out there who find that the humor makes them sort of "leave the story" out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarserpent Posted October 16, 2018 Report Share Posted October 16, 2018 I would like to see Wit saying Monty Python's Oscar Wilde sketch: Wit: Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss...you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark. Wit: Your Majesty is like a dose of clap...Before you arrive is pleasure, but after is a pain in the dong. Monty Python: Oscar Wilde Sketch perhaps a bit too vulgar for Brandon Sanderson though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Croaker's Apprentice Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 I think the humour (forgive British spelling) in the books is great and doesn't at all affect my Connection with the story; whilst a lot of Cosmere characters do like the style of 'subversion of expectation' to deliver a punchline, as well as extended wordplay/ puns, perhaps that's because a lot of people generally employ those styles (I would point out, for example, that Allomancers are known to burn irony). It is much better than the rather po-faced world of the Wheel of Time which was a laughter desert most of the time(whereas we know God has a sense of humour, even if Wit isn't a Shard). There are plenty of characters e.g Wax and Vasher who don't go in for that kind of comedy schtick at all, a nice contrast to the others. Although having said that, I'm sure you'd agree Vasher can deliver a killer one-liner ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 I disagree, and agree. When Kaladin makes a joke, he feels out of character at times. But Pattern, for example, is hilarious, and has a very unique humor. Kelsier was also pretty funny without breaking character, as was Lightsong. The ones I am bothered by the most are Lopen and Lift, Lopen because the plot seems to adapt to fit him rather than the opposite (him becoming Radiant at the end of OB) and Lift because she is annoying to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Brandon's best joke yet. When Shallan tells Pattern that a chaperone is supposed to make sure they don't do anything inappropriate and his response was "Like dividing by zero?". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: I disagree, and agree. When Kaladin makes a joke, he feels out of character at times. But Pattern, for example, is hilarious, and has a very unique humor. Kelsier was also pretty funny without breaking character, as was Lightsong. The ones I am bothered by the most are Lopen and Lift, Lopen because the plot seems to adapt to fit him rather than the opposite (him becoming Radiant at the end of OB) and Lift because she is annoying to me. I actually didn't notice anything like it with Lightsong, my issue is mostly with Kaladin and Adolin. Pattern is IMO the way tv series and such portrait savants. 32 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Brandon's best joke yet. When Shallan tells Pattern that a chaperone is supposed to make sure they don't do anything inappropriate and his response was "Like dividing by zero?". The fact that Pattern knows what a zero is shows that Rosharian culture is quite advanced in that regard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/16/2018 at 1:34 PM, Solarserpent said: perhaps a bit too vulgar for Brandon Sanderson though. IDK, Jasnah's burn on Amaram is pretty wild. I'm talking about the whole, "Yes, if I remember correctly, she entertained each and every military-age man who came to her when she was with child, in the hopes that something of value would stick to you," remark, which is soooooooo nasty if you think it through 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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