Allomancy physics

[Ashertliden]

Do we have any numbers on Steelrunner speeds, or how much flared bendalloy can compress time?

Edited October 15, 2018 by Kal-Eldin

[Inky]

nothing exact, I don't think

[RShara]

We know that a steelrunner, even if they had the Abrasion surge, wouldn't be able to run as fast as The Flash. Beyond that, no hard numbers, unfortunately.

[+hwiles]

10 minutes ago, Kal-Eldin said:

Do we have any numbers on Steelrunner speeds, or how much flared bendalloy can compress time?

Flared bendalloy has demonstrated ludicrous range. Wayne speeds up time by a factor of something like 10,000-100,000x when Wax's butler tries to kill them with a basket of explosives (the basket is several meters away, Wayne speeds up time right as the explosion starts, the blast propagates at approx. 5-10K m/s, and I think I clocked their dialogue at roughly 2 minutes of normal speech, so maybe as low as 1 minute with panic speed-talking and no pauses for breath. Other times he struggles to hit 100x (screwing with Steris) or 1000x (slowing bullets), and Wax implied once, incorrectly in my opinion, that the default speed-up factor was 8x, which might still be on coppermind (it's the closest we have to canon so I'm not arguing for its removal).

I never did a scene analysis of bleeder's steel speed shenanigans but I think someone else did with more or less the same conclusion: she went outrageously fast. Like, an actual whole number percentage of the speed of light.

[amflare]

At a minimum, a speedrunner can go supersonic. Evidenced by Wax (or was it Marasi?) being able to see a vacuum when they moved their hand while holding the Bands. Probably close to Mach 4-5 to be able to cause then see the vacuum. That should be enough for the bullet-time we see with Bleeder in Shadows of Self.

Edited October 15, 2018 by amflare

[Gasper]

The speed at which Feruchemical power is used is only limited, in my understanding, by how fast you can tap it and how much power you have stored. We see this with Wax and F-iron, he is able to quickly tap years of storage and destroy buildings, or he can tap a little and just speed up his bullets. A Steeldancer would be able to theoretically hit lightspeed for a fraction of a second. Which would turn them into one of the most dangerous ferrings out there. Think of a suicide run hitting even a fraction of the speed of light, that could crack a planet. Or just mechanize it using the little South Scadrian box to externalize the effect on a tank shell.

[Calderis]

@Gasper Brandon has said that the limits are a bit harder than that.

Quote

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

So if a steel compounder became an Edgedancer... 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh, here we go. [Audience laughs]

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

If a steel compounder became an Edgedancer, how fast could they go?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

[Dramatic sigh] They could go quite fast. They are not going to ever reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed. So, I will say quick, but not that quick. We aren't outracing an atom bomb, as the Flash periodically does. 

source

 

[Gasper]

Just now, Calderis said:

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

[Dramatic sigh] They could go quite fast. They are not going to ever reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed. So, I will say quick, but not that quick. We aren't outracing an atom bomb, as the Flash periodically does.

You do not need to outrace an atomic bomb to cause relativistic damage. I am assuming that you mean the radiation in the blast and not the shock wave. If we go with the radiation, then you do not need to get even close to the radiation which is at the speed of light. You could still level a city by going a hundred times slower than the radiation. If we go with being slower than the shockwave, then leveling cities or planets is out, but you could still pulverize a thunderclast, windblade, or chasmfiend with a single punch. That is assuming you held enough F-Gold or stormlight to repair the damage done to your body by the resulting force on your fist. Basically you would become OnePunch Man for a fraction of a second before your bones turn to dust, the shockwave bursts every membrane in your body and you explode like a waterballoon with a core made of C4 and bone broth.

[Calderis]

@Gasper I still don't think any of that is possible just because of Bleeder. Physics seen to apply to her normally when moving at speed. I actually asked Brandon about this, and got a WoB that I need to try and clarify my question apparently... Because I was trying to determine if tapping steel actually changes the passage of Time.

Quote

Calderis [PENDING REVIEW]

In Shadows of Self, in the scene where Paalm is speaking to Wax from a floor above, she rushes out the window and down past him. The window isn't damaged, the earth that she runs on isn't damaged, and she runs down a flight of stairs at speed. Being as “speed” affects gravity, and physics apply to Paalm as if she were moving at normal speed, is Feruchemical steel a temporal effect?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*laughs* Nice. I'm going to ask for more definition. What do you mean by temporal effect. What exactly do you mean by that? Are you reaching into magic system definitions, or are you using our definitions? Give me more.

source

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Calderis

[Gasper]

@CalderisYou make a good point, but at the speeds I am talking about, time dilation is not a problem yet. But the kinetic energy you build up is. Think of it this way, a 50 caliber sniper round packs enough force to basically make a human body pop like a balloon. A human fist, moving at a similar or even faster speed would devastate almost anything in front of it. The equation (1/2)*mass*velocity^2 determines the force applied to both the hand and the object the hand is striking. For the sake of simplicity, lets say a 80 kilogram Steeldancer taps his/her metalmind and starts moving at roughly 850 meters/second (the speed of a 50 caliber BMG round, courtesy of google). No other forces such as drag, friction, torque, or other effects are present in the system. The steeldancer now has 28.9 million joules behind their fist. Add in the equation that transfers Kinetic energy into force, K=F/d, d being the distance traveled after the two objects impact each other. Lets say the ferring punchs a misting in the head while running that fast in our one dimensional system. The skin on the head compresses exactly two millimeters. Do a little math and you get that the punch, assuming all kinetic energy in transfered, just transferred 1.445 billion Newtons of force to the mistings head.* The average accepted value of force needed to crush a human skull is a little less than 3000 Newtons. Result, even at moving at speeds that are close to 3 times the speed of sound, no where near the speed of light, the steeldancer is a deadly kinetic weapon. Add in any magics or magical items that make the Steeldancer more durable and you have someone who can literally punch their way out of anything.**

*All of these calculations and numbers have been simplified because I did not want to do any additional work.

**Assuming they had enough room to speed up their fist and enough stored steel.

[Calderis]

I get it, @Gasper. I really really do. I don't know physics all that well... But at the speeds that Bleeder was moving, she still should have ripped the window frame apart climbing out of it, or shot out into the air over Wax's head.

I'm saying that I think tapping speed is like a bendalloy bubble that ends at the skin. I think it prevents those types of interactions precisely because of how stupidly overpowered it would be. Steel is OP enough without it.

If physics applied normally, even if it protected Bleeder from the adverse effects of that speed, it should have torn the window frame apart. If should have churned the ground she ran on. She shouldn't have been able to run down stairs, and if she managed it she should have absolutely destroyed them.