The Nature of Endowment's Investiture

[+Ravioli]

So, after finally getting someone to ask this for me, we got this WoB. 

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Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

source

Having gotten this answer, it made me wonder, what caused Ruin's Investiture to seep in? If that's how the WoB is meant to be understood. I decided that it was because Endowment's Investiture can't actually do anything on it's own. It only gives things the capacity to do things. Awakening gives an object the ability to do more than it normally can. Holding Breath makes an individual have greater capabilities than they had before. Endowment can only grant capacity, it is up to the object to execute.

Ex. It can't materially affect the physical world or be used to alter physical states. But it gives an object or person the capacity to do things they otherwise would not be able to do.

This also would explain why only Endowment's Investiture was insufficient to fulfill the "Destroy Evil" command. Because Investiture is universal, something else rushed in to fill that gap, Ruin's Investiture. Thoughts?

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Ravioli

[Ixthos]

I actually like this theory, and I would have hopped it would be the case, but if it were then Rashek couldn't have used Preservation's power to reshape anything, as that doesn't preserve, and Mistborn wouldn't be able to use allomancy to break things. The abilities of a shard are not restricted by the shard, the only limit is that they find it harder to use the abilities for things against the intent. I think based on the first part of what Brandon said it basically is that yes, Nightblood has investiture from Ruin in the same way that everything has some - not just Scadrial, but everything was made with investiture, and so the material that was used to make Nightblood has some from every shard. Based on the second part, I also think that the command might have been able to make a connection to Ruin, but this is not in and of itself something related to Endowment.

[goody153]

I like the idea but pretty sure Endowment's investiture isn't special(just like every other shard investiture like it all depends on the intent allows and skill of usage) but tweak that abit it sounds alot like Endowment.

I feel like you are close to the right idea. Ruin investiture went in because of the Ruinous intent(I don't think it is not possible)

[Ripheus23]

I think the Investiture-assignment upon the Shattering was that of the, IDK, let's just say 16,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 "units" of Investiture in the Cosmere at the time, 1/16th of that total got assigned to each Shard. It doesn't seem like the "units" all had to be next to each other to get assigned to a given Shard (Autonomy going about and "igniting" her pockets testifies to that), so arguably there could have been a few units of Ruin-assigned Investiture "particles" within Nalthis' grasp. Another option is that matter or energy in the vicinity of a Ruin-pocket got converted to Investiture that was as such assimilated into that packet, and this converted matter/energy made its way to the Nalthis area, or was already there.

Maybe atium is the automatic matter form of Ruin, meaning the pockets of Investiture he got at the Shattering automatically were atium in form, whereas matter that became his (by magical thermodynamics) is what has ended up in Nightblood.

[Calderis]

@Ripheus23, Nightblood contains no atium.

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Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any atium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

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[Ripheus23]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Ripheus23, Nightblood contains no atium.

 

I know. I said "whereas matter that became his (by magical thermodynamics) is what has ended up in Nightblood." The matter Ruin got at the Shattering was atium; atium thermodynamically transformed other matter into Ruin-Invested matter; but that later Ati-matter is not atium. EDIT: It would be like atium particles decaying into other particles, I guess you'd say. The later particles would not be atium but would still carry the Investiture-signature of Ruin (since Intent is not a merely Physical relation).

Edited October 14, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Pagerunner]

On 10/12/2018 at 11:17 PM, Ravioli said:

I decided that it was because Endowment's Investiture can't actually do anything on it's own. It only gives things the capacity to do things. Awakening gives an object the ability to do more than it normally can. Holding Breath makes an individual have greater capabilities than they had before. Endowment can only grant capacity, it is up to the object to execute.

Ex. It can't materially affect the physical world or be used to alter physical states. But it gives an object or person the capacity to do things they otherwise would not be able to do.

Can you elaborate on the distinction you're making? I'm having a hard time understanding it. Like for Nightblood, what exactly is the "capacity," and what is the "thing that is being done?" Or for a more mundane instance, like Vasher causing the drapes to lift him up?

I also think it's important to note that the WoB does not state the Nightblood was "created" with Ruin's Investiture. Just that he "contains" it. Another recent WoB about Nightblood:

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Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes.

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If Nightblood is growing stronger, becoming more Invested, then it stands to reason that he is absorbing Investiture from somewhere. If this occurs as he is used, then he could have acquired Ruin's Investiture sometime after his creation. He may also now have some of Honor's Investiture, absorbed during the events of OB. So it could indicate that he was used by someone with Feruchemy, drew on the mists directly on Scadrial, or maybe even was used against a Scadrian and absorbed their innate Investiture.

[+Ravioli]

On 10/14/2018 at 6:00 PM, Pagerunner said:

Can you elaborate on the distinction you're making? I'm having a hard time understanding it. Like for Nightblood, what exactly is the "capacity," and what is the "thing that is being done?" Or for a more mundane instance, like Vasher causing the drapes to lift him up?

I also think it's important to note that the WoB does not state the Nightblood was "created" with Ruin's Investiture. Just that he "contains" it. Another recent WoB about Nightblood:

If Nightblood is growing stronger, becoming more Invested, then it stands to reason that he is absorbing Investiture from somewhere. If this occurs as he is used, then he could have acquired Ruin's Investiture sometime after his creation. He may also now have some of Honor's Investiture, absorbed during the events of OB. So it could indicate that he was used by someone with Feruchemy, drew on the mists directly on Scadrial, or maybe even was used against a Scadrian and absorbed their innate Investiture.

Hi Page,

For the first point, I mean that Endowment's Investiture gives an object the ability to do things it would normally not but would be within its means. For example, a cloth could feasibly lift something if used that way. It is an extension of what it is. Breath grants the cloth the ability to achieve that possibility. Does that make sense?

Second, the way he said "The way you actually mean it", makes it sound like it's *not* the explanations you gave. Unless of course he's eaten a kandra

Edited October 19, 2018 by Ravioli

[Pagerunner]

On 10/19/2018 at 8:55 AM, Ravioli said:

For the first point, I mean that Endowment's Investiture gives an object the ability to do things it would normally not but would be within its means. For example, a cloth could feasibly lift something if used that way. It is an extension of what it is. Breath grants the cloth the ability to achieve that possibility. Does that make sense?

I'm not seeing that in our Awakening examples from the text. Cloth, regular cloth, has the ability to keep itself from being torn apart. If you use cloth to lift something, tie a sheet around something and raise it up, all the cloth's doing is is keeping itself from coming apart. Lifting something on its own, coiling up like a muscle or gripping things, seems like something completely different to me.

And other Awakened objects do things well beyond physical applications. Vasher's straw man could observe and determine what keys are. Straw can't perceive, but that Awakened construct had the ability to find things.

On 10/19/2018 at 8:55 AM, Ravioli said:

Second, the way he said "The way you actually mean it", makes it sound like it's *not* the explanations you gave. Unless of course he's eaten a kandra

He says he's not talking about how Ruin's Investiture is "everywhere." So perhaps all swords everywhere in the cosmere have a little bit of Ruin's Investiture, since they're used to destroy. Maybe not that sort of a specific situation, but this concept (emphasis mine):

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Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

Source

There are things on Nalthis that are associated with Ruin in the very fabric of matter and existence. But that's not what Nightblood has. I don't see that as disqualifying the mists or Feruchemical Kinetic Investiture, since those are specific manifestations Ruin is involved in through Scadrial.

[Fanghur Rahl]

Honestly, that’s pretty much how I’ve always pictured Ambition’s Investiture personally; simply as a multiplier of whatever qualities the person already holds. I guess Endowment could be similar though, though I’m not sure, since implicit in the name ‘Endowment’ is the concept of giving people things which they presumably had previously lacked.

If I were to assume that any one Shard doesn’t grant anything novel, it would have to be Ambition though; maybe kind of analogous to how Blue Lantern’s can’t really do much on their own, but when paired with members of other Lantern Corps., they act as amplifiers. Ambition is useless without something to be ambitious about.