What's up with the radiant addition?

[ChetLee]

Why did the Knights Radiant let Szeth in? We NEED to see the conversation that had to of took place about Szeth joining the team in the next book. It drove me a little crazy that this was left out of Oathbringer, but I could understand way it might of been cut. The book was pretty long already and I wouldn't be happy with a rushed out version. It also probably did flow naturally with the ending.

I'm curious about how all the main characters rationalized allowing szeth to join. I can kind of get way Dalinar might let him in, but Jasnah and Kaladin!? Szeth killed a member of bridge 4 which would be irredeemable for Kaladin and Jasnah being slow to trust others would be an understatement. Also Szeth killed her father which she spent so much effort trying to prevent. What theories does anyone have on how the group aloud Szeth in? I'm sure that Sanderson will address this in the next book.

[Calderis]

Cause the situation is dire, and help is help. 

It's Vader syndrome. Your most terrifying enemy is a strong ally if they turn. 

For both Dalinar and Kaladin, it would be hypocritical to condemn him, Dalinar because of his past, and Kaladin because of the Elhokar debacle. 

For Jasnah, logic wins. If he's truly "changed sides" then he's a powerful ally. She may not trust him until he earns it, but you can work with people tentatively until they do. 

I understand why everyone sees this as unbelievable... But it's not nearly as farfetched as it seems. 

[RShara]

Vader Syndrome.

Quote

“There’s no ally so impressive, encouraging, and well loved as an ally who was an enemy that made you shake in your boots a couple of minutes ago.”

Edit: Darn it Cal, don't steal my analogies and ninja me at the same time!

Edited October 10, 2018 by RShara

[Chaos]

You don't need [OB] in topic titles anymore; I've removed this.  

[IllNsickly]

Historically, there had always been contention between some of the different Orders of Radiants.

Some of the Orders encouraged and accepted things that other Orders found completely reprehensible.

I see the Bondsmiths as a sort of referee. Keeping the Orders that did not play well together in hand and on task.

Edited October 10, 2018 by IllNsickly
Seppling.

[ChetLee]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Cause the situation is dire, and help is help. 

It's Vader syndrome. Your most terrifying enemy is a strong ally if they turn. 

For both Dalinar and Kaladin, it would be hypocritical to condemn him, Dalinar because of his past, and Kaladin because of the Elhokar debacle. 

For Jasnah, logic wins. If he's truly "changed sides" then he's a powerful ally. She may not trust him until he earns it, but you can work with people tentatively until they do. 

I understand why everyone sees this as unbelievable... But it's not nearly as farfetched as it seems. 

 I get way Vader Syndrome would be a useful story tool and I don't find it unbelievable that they let him in. I was just seeing what people thought about how Szeth being allowed in went down. Also I'm sorry but I can't believe that Kaladin would be accepting because of his experience with Elhokar. It apples and oranges, both are fruit but pretty different fruit. And Jasnah is not always a calculating robot. If she was then Renarin would probably be dead. You might be right, but it's a little too shallow. 

 

5 hours ago, IllNsickly said:

Historically, there had always been contention between some of the different Orders of Radiants.

Some of the Orders encouraged and accepted things that other Orders found completely reprehensible.

I see the Bondsmiths as a sort of referee. Keeping the Orders that did not play well together in hand and on task.

But the characters are more then just what order they are in.

[IllNsickly]

Hmm, I guess we have only seen a few hours of screen time for Szeth while he is with the Radiants. I sort of expect the big scenes involving the anger and animosity to happen in the year gap between OB and book 4. *Shrug*

I am not at all surprised, though, that no one objected to his help during the battle. ‘The enemy of my enemy’ and all that. 

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, ChetLee said:

Also I'm sorry but I can't believe that Kaladin would be accepting because of his experience with Elhokar.

"I will protect those I hate so long as it is right" 

His feelings about Szeth don't matter. What he feels is right or wrong do. He already fought Szeth. That battle is gone. He's turned up again helping them. You don't attack someone or banish them or punish them for past wrong that have already been paid for. 

Mistrust him all you want, but you don't strike out at a helping hand. 

54 minutes ago, ChetLee said:

And Jasnah is not always a calculating robot. If she was then Renarin would probably be dead.

I didn't say she was. If she were, pure logic would say to kill him before he switches sides again. 

It's a calculated risk. And one that is potentially massively worthwhile. Again, like with Kal, I don't think she's going to trust him. Just work with him. He's already informed them of what the Skybreakers have done and that's ridiculously valuable information. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Because Szeth slaughtered a bunch of Voidbringers at Thaylen City, and because they know the truth about why he assassinated people. 

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, ChetLee said:

 I get way Vader Syndrome would be a useful story tool and I don't find it unbelievable that they let him in. I was just seeing what people thought about how Szeth being allowed in went down. Also I'm sorry but I can't believe that Kaladin would be accepting because of his experience with Elhokar. It apples and oranges, both are fruit but pretty different fruit. And Jasnah is not always a calculating robot. If she was then Renarin would probably be dead. You might be right, but it's a little too shallow. 

 

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

"I will protect those I hate so long as it is right" 

His feelings about Szeth don't matter. What he feels is right or wrong do. He already fought Szeth. That battle is gone. He's turned up again helping them. You don't attack someone or banish them or punish them for past wrong that have already been paid for. 

Mistrust him all you want, but you don't strike out at a helping hand. 

I didn't say she was. If she were, pure logic would say to kill him before he switches sides again. 

It's a calculated risk. And one that is potentially massively worthwhile. Again, like with Kal, I don't think she's going to trust him. Just work with him. He's already informed them of what the Skybreakers have done and that's ridiculously valuable information. 

It is mostly Dalinar's call, Kaladin and the rest can complain all they want they don't get to decide who Dalinar wants as his bodyguard. Dalinar is not running a democracy. It's no more a risk than keeping Taravangian in the coalition after he admitted he sent the Szeth to kill all those people, including Dalinar twice. Now that Dalinar remembers that he was a child-killing war criminal he has learned to forgive. 

It's consistent with how Dalinar reacted to Sadeas' death early in OB. In chapter 2 "One Problem Solved" Dalinar gets upset at his allies seeming happy or relieved that Toril Sadeas is dead. "We needed him!" he chastised them. Sadeas, like Szeth, tried to kill Dalinar twice. 

I do agree it is jarring that we don't see Szeth explain himself to Dalinar and others. It was probably cut for time because there was so much to pack into the last 100 or so pages. 

If you've seen Dark Knight Rises: 

Spoiler

 

Wayne escapes the pit and the next scene he's back in Gotham which is like a prison city with no one entering or exiting. It is very jarring. It is easily explained, early in Batman Begins we see Wayne go from Gotham to China with no resources. He could totally do it and we've seen him do something similar, but any transition got cut for time because that movie is long and has pacing issues. (I still really like it though!)

Oooh speaking of that movie and Stormlight. In the first fight Bane says "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you!". Like Stormlight the victory and long peace were based on a lie the public was told and the enemy took advantage of that long peace. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Quantus]

Dalinar and Kaladin both have gone too far down their own paths of redemption to hold it against Szeth.  Szeth was basically just a soldier following orders who happened to be on the other side, and that's never bothered Dalinar.  Kaladin is Sworn to protect even those he personally hates, not to mention he too was once a solder that killed the Loved Ones of his current allies.  And, at the end of the day, Szeth is the only one of them that has actually Sworn Loyalty in a supernatural manner, so he's arguably the most loyal of the entire bunch. 

 

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Vader Syndrome.

Edit: Darn it Cal, don't steal my analogies and ninja me at the same time!

Ah, Dresden quotes.  You warm my heart

 

 

[Ripheus23]

There's a lot of guilt going around with the reveal of the first Voidbringers. I imagine this also dampens some people's willingness to be hostile towards Szeth.

[ChetLee]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

"I will protect those I hate so long as it is right"

Szeth wouldn't fall under this. In fact Kaladin opposing him joining would fall under his protective nature. He's not protecting Szeth. (which you probably didn't mean but that's how it came across.)

 

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

His feelings about Szeth don't matter.

Yes they do. Kaladin as clearly been shown to struggle with his personal feelings and what is truly the right thing to do. And I'm not convinced that Kaladin would think Szeth has paid for his crime after seeing him still alive.

I think maybe I could've been clearer about what I was getting at with this discussion. I'll focus on Kaladin because I pretty much agree with Jasnah taking a calculated risk.

What do you think Kaladin might say in objection to Szeth joining ( if you think he would object) and how do you think Dalinar, Jasnah, or any other core character might respond to convince Kaladin to give trust the decision? I'm just trying to imagine how the conversation would go.

 

10 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

 

It is mostly Dalinar's call, Kaladin and the rest can complain all they want they don't get to decide who Dalinar wants as his bodyguard. Dalinar is not running a democracy. It's no more a risk than keeping Taravangian in the coalition after he admitted he sent the Szeth to kill all those people, including Dalinar twice. Now that Dalinar remembers that he was a child-killing war criminal he has learned to forgive. 

It's consistent with how Dalinar reacted to Sadeas' death early in OB. In chapter 2 "One Problem Solved" Dalinar gets upset at his allies seeming happy or relieved that Toril Sadeas is dead. "We needed him!" he chastised them. Sadeas, like Szeth, tried to kill Dalinar twice. 

I do agree it is jarring that we don't see Szeth explain himself to Dalinar and others. It was probably cut for time because there was so much to pack into the last 100 or so pages. 

If you've seen Dark Knight Rises: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Wayne escapes the pit and the next scene he's back in Gotham which is like a prison city with no one entering or exiting. It is very jarring. It is easily explained, early in Batman Begins we see Wayne go from Gotham to China with no resources. He could totally do it and we've seen him do something similar, but any transition got cut for time because that movie is long and has pacing issues. (I still really like it though!)

Oooh speaking of that movie and Stormlight. In the first fight Bane says "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you!". Like Stormlight the victory and long peace were based on a lie the public was told and the enemy took advantage of that long peace. 

 

 

I get why Dalinar would be forgiving. I'm mostly curious of how Kaladin will be convinced. I can only think that he would be unenthusiastic following Dalinar's orders, which is fine but I wanted to see if anyone had thought of a better reason. I guess I'll wait and see.

Edited October 11, 2018 by ChetLee
Big spelling mistake

[Calderis]

I don't see why he would object. Szeth took out a thunderclast and helped to trap one of the Unmade. Swore to protect Dalinar, and informed them of the Skybreakers betrayal. 

Taravangian spin a version of events to Dalinar because with Szeth around, it's inevitable that he would be exposed.

Szeth has been honest and straightforward since he showed up, by everything presented at the end of the book. If it weren't for him, another thunderclast and all of the Fused that were busy dealing with Szeth would have beenenough to overwhelm them.

Yes, his past is questionable, but dire situations make for strange bedfellows, and turning against a former enemy who just pulled your butt out if the fire is... Petty. 

I absolutely think it would be hypocritical of Kaladin, and his struggles to determine who the enemy are aren't going to make him reject Szeth, they're one of the strongest arguments for him accepting him. 

In either version of the WoR ending Szeth confronts everything he's done, realizes that he does have a choice, and chooses to die. He basically admitted he was wrong by way of suicide. Kaladin witnesses it first hand. And then Szeth shows up helping them, and we know gave some explanations off screen of what's going on. His actions would appear, for all intents and purposes, to be attempting to make up for his past. 

Kaladin, of all people, is not going to decide the person helping them is the enemy. 

[KallaVin Stormborn]

The other aspect of Kaladins character is that he tries to understand others (besides lighteyes in his darker thoughts, but those episodes are becoming less common, and less vehemently than he used to as shown by a whole platoon of lighteyes on the guard becoming "his" people to protect), it is what gets him attached to the different groups of people (and that understanding typically leads him to wanting to protect them).
Also, if memory serves, when they confronted near the end of WoR, I think Kaladin said something like "Then you are not the evil man I thought you were, you are a coward" (I will try to look it up later and edit this with the real quote). Assuming Kaladin thought of Szeth that way when he killed him in order to protect Dalinar, there isn't a strong hatred that he has to overcome to accept him. Also, Kaladins moral code (that of the windrunners, his oaths, and Syls advice) isn't one to start a fight. He was probably distrustful, and needed to see proof of Szeth being on their side (and then some for him to become Dalinars guard), Szeths actions at the battle of Thalen city provide a large chunk of proof of Szeths loyalty. 
As long as Szeth can convince Kaladin that he isn't a threat Dalinar and Dalinar wants him there, Kaladin would allow it (even if he doesn't like it). While it is arguable how much he still considers himself under Dalinars command, he knows he isn't in a position to order Dalinar around (this wouldn't be as true for Jasnah since she is Queen)

Edited October 11, 2018 by KallaVin Stormborn
added a section

[IllNsickly]

Moash... After Kaladin had his Epiphany and change of heart about Elhokar in WoR, Moash was directly involved in an attempt to murder Kaladin.

When Kaladin sees Moash preparing to kill Elhokar at the end of OB, he freezes... Freezes because he is incapable of reconciling his emotions about what Has happened, what Moash had been prepared to do and what he he was doing directly in front of him.

If Kaladin... No, Kaladin is not going to harbor any deep hatred or resentment of Szeth. He will have questions and trust will be difficult to establish, but Kaladin will be one of the easiest people for Szeth to reconcile with.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by IllNsickly
Seppling

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, KallaVin Stormborn said:

Also, if memory serves, when they confronted near the end of WoR, I think Kaladin said something like "Then you are not the evil man I thought you were, you are a coward" (I will try to look it up later and edit this with the real quote).

Quote

Szeth nodded, and the edge of tension seemed to fade from him, replaced by an emptiness in his eyes. “Then I was right all along. I was never Truthless. I could have stopped the murders at any time.”

“I don’t know what that means,” Kaladin said. “But you never had to kill.”

“My orders—”

“Excuses! If that was why you murdered, then you’re not the evil man I assumed. You’re a coward instead.”

Szeth looked him in the eyes, then nodded. He pushed Kaladin back, then moved to swing.

- Words of Radiance, Chapter 86

 

[RShara]

Kaladin also decided not to kill Szeth when he could have, at least in the revised ending.

[ChetLee]

I don't know. I can't see Kaladin being as accepting as a lot of you suggest. I think there will be a lot of friction on Kaladin's end which will make their journey toward trusting each other more interesting. I did not  start this discussion thinking Kaladin will never accept Szeth, just not right off the bat.

[+Child of Hodor]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Kaladin also decided not to kill Szeth when he could have, at least in the revised ending.

That should really be Kaladin's main issue "Why aren't you dead?!". Even in the revised ending he takes away Szeth's ability to fly and Szeth falls into that superstorm. Everyone should also be asking Kaladin "I thought you killed him?"

[KallaVin Stormborn]

12 hours ago, ChetLee said:

I don't know. I can't see Kaladin being as accepting as a lot of you suggest. I think there will be a lot of friction on Kaladin's end which will make their journey toward trusting each other more interesting. I did not  start this discussion thinking Kaladin will never accept Szeth, just not right off the bat.

I wasn't thinking that Kaladin would be particularly accepting, but he doesn't have to accept Szeth, just allow Dalinar to do what he wants, which is a lower bar to pass. He trusts Dalinar and I can't think of a time that didn't involve Amaram that he hasn't respected Dalinars decisions

p.s. thanks Spoolofwhool for looking up the quote for me

Edited October 11, 2018 by KallaVin Stormborn

[Yata]

On 11/10/2018 at 1:25 PM, Child of Hodor said:

That should really be Kaladin's main issue "Why aren't you dead?!". Even in the revised ending he takes away Szeth's ability to fly and Szeth falls into that superstorm. Everyone should also be asking Kaladin "I thought you killed him?"

With the increased understanding of Surgebinding, I feel the "someone healed me" is a really easy explaination (regardless if he was a Radiant or a Fabrial).

By the way, I fel weird that after the discovery of Shallan/Jasnah as Soulcasters and the usage of Oathgates.... Nobody even wondered if it is possible the existence of Fabrials able to performe the other surges