Jump to content

Step by step process of medallion creation.


Calderis

Recommended Posts

36 minutes ago, Quantus said:

with Hemalurgy I think that anchoring some percentage of a Spiritweb to a Physical Body via the Spike Suture coexisting in the Spiritual and Physical is a fundamental function of the magic system asa whole,

Except this isn't "some percentage." This is binding his entire Spiritual and Cognitive aspects back to a physical body. 

I find it very hard to believe that a single spike could contain all of that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, see, southern Scadrial never had Mistborn, as Mistborn we’re created with Laresium beads. They had Feruchemists and Mistings, but the Mistings would have been more rare as there were no Mistborn to sire them. So unless Kelsior started by spiking all the surviving Mistborn of Elendel, which didn’t happen, then no, they didn’t have any Mistborn to work with, only Mistings of whatever metal would be used to burn said spike. 

 

Now, Brandon has said it would be possible to heal the damage caused by a spike. If the Incisers were a complex “medallion” of sorts that allowed a person to have Gold Feruchemy, with an unkeyed Gold compounded metalmind attaches to allow for near infinite healing, which a person tapped, then become spiked, transferring their power to the spike while allowing themselves to be healed of the damage...that would make sense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

Except this isn't "some percentage." This is binding his entire Spiritual and Cognitive aspects back to a physical body. 

I find it very hard to believe that a single spike could contain all of that. 

I tend to think it being the whole 100% would make it easier rather than more difficult, because you are no longer trying to align two different pieces of the Spiritweb onto a single body, you are just slapping one whole thing back into its natural place. 

I see where you are coming from about a quantitative limit to how much Investiture could be crammed into a single spike, and you may be proven right on that ultimately, but at this point I just dont think a single person's spiritweb, even a Sliver, wouldn't be so big as to challenge the absolute capacity limits of Investiture in the Physical spike.  I mean, to give a cosmere comparison it would seem to be doing generally the same but a whole lot less than a Divine Breath, functionally speaking.

 

EDIT: left out a critical "-n't" 

Edited by Quantus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends entirely on how the hemalurgy would work in this instance.  Is Kelsior now "Inside" the spike?  In that case, could you remove the spike and put it in someone else and let him take over that body?  Or does the spike merely act as...well, as a pin sticking a piece of paper to the wall, Kelsior's mind being the paper and his body being the wall?  There's really not enough to go by in the books either way.  He does, however, have the scars on his arms in his new body, though I suppose that could be a result of gold healing.  If it's like Stormlight, where it makes you like you see yourself, then it might bring the scars with him.  Unless he went digging around in the Pits in search of more atium.  

Also, I believe Kelsior has more spikes, simply because he now has the power of a Fullborn, if I'm not mistaken, and if the Bands of Mourning are any indication.  Since he made himself thus before Medallions were a thing, I'd imagine the only way he could do that was through Hemalurgy.  I imagine he'd got ahold of the spikes from one of the Inquisitors.  I just don't imagine him going around killing Terrismen just to get some of their feruchemy.  He hated the Noblemen, not the Terris.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not the only explanation. 

And considering it's Kelsier, I doubt he would be willing to have more than three spikes. Even if he does trust Sazed, more than three spikes means allowing yourself to be controlled by anyone with a power to access and the strength to do it.

He also shouldn't need them. With a spike to grant him F-nicrosil since he can compound and both medallions and spikes are things. 

I'll wait to see how this new WoB effects things, but I don't believe that nicrosil Feruchemy in and of itself is just a permanent and undraining storage. It would mean that Soulbearer Ferring are literally capable of removing their own power, and nothing more. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Duralumin Mistings are capable of boosting all the metals they can’t burn. It’s the equivalent of a Misting Gnat. 

The way I think it would work is you go without your investiture while actively storing, but have it back when you stop storing, then when you tap the metalmind your connection is strengthened. Like storing Strength in a Pewtermind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would Kelsier have needed Spikes to become a full Feruchemist?  He was a Vessel for a bit, would he have needed a body at the time to make the necessary changes to his own Spiritweb to grant that?  I can see easily see why he might have been able to make that sort of change (even subconsciously, depending on the origin of Feruchemy) and still require spikes to reconnect with a physical body later on.  Conversely, if those changes do require a body in the equation to make the tweaks to grant Feruchemy, we still dont know where he got that body and I could buy as an option that he created and stored it while he held a Shard, with the expectation that he'd reclaim it later on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And Duralumin Mistings are capable of boosting all the metals they can’t burn. It’s the equivalent of a Misting Gnat. 

The way I think it would work is you go without your investiture while actively storing, but have it back when you stop storing, then when you tap the metalmind your connection is strengthened. Like storing Strength in a Pewtermind.

You misunderstand. What your describing is exactly how I think Nicrosil works. 

What the new WoB implies about medallion nicrosil minds, that some people are taking to mean is how nicrosil Feruchemy works, is that when you store into a nicrosil mind it is a complete removal of the ability. No storage over time. No overtapping for increased strength. Simply a complete input, and output. A static amount. 

While I believe that is true of the medallions in a way, and is why they don't deplete, I don't think that normal F-nicrosil is the complete excision of the ability from your spiritweb at a static amount.

The comparison that people are trying to make is that you start storing a piece of your spiritweb the same way that you store an individual memory. It is stored and removed from your mind, and then drawn back later... But I don't agree that that's the way copper works, because that's just not how memory works. 

When you think of a memory, it basically gets pulled out of storage and brought into the active portion of your mind. It also becomes malleable in that state and can be changed, and Brandon uses the alterable nature of human memory repeatedly in stories so I believe he's aware of this. The act of thinking which memory you wish to store would pull that into an active state in your mind, and then it would be dumped into the coppermind instead of returning to long term memory storage. Coincidentally, I think it being stored locks it into that malleable state of active memory, which is why copper retrieved memories degrade so quickly. 

With Nicrosil, the complete excision of a portion of your spiritweb is not analogous to storing memories. It would be like storing your ability to create them. 

Until we actually see how a Soulbearer Ferring functions, both routes are speculation, but the excision model of F-nicrosil seems counter to all other Feruchemy we've been shown. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

When you think of a memory, it basically gets pulled out of storage and brought into the active portion of your mind. It also becomes malleable in that state and can be changed, and Brandon uses the alterable nature of human memory repeatedly in stories so I believe he's aware of this. The act of thinking which memory you wish to store would pull that into an active state in your mind, and then it would be dumped into the coppermind instead of returning to long term memory storage. Coincidentally, I think it being stored locks it into that malleable state of active memory, which is why copper retrieved memories degrade so quickly.

Would you mind elaborating on that part?

 

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

With Nicrosil, the complete excision of a portion of your spiritweb is not analogous to storing memories. It would be like storing your ability to create them. 

Until we actually see how a Soulbearer Ferring functions, both routes are speculation, but the excision model of F-nicrosil seems counter to all other Feruchemy we've been shown. 

You make a strong argument that we (or at least I) was off-base with respect to Copper, in particular with the bolded part there.  Might it be that we have Nicrosil off a bit as well, and the truth is somewhere in the middle?  What's sparking this thought is in the implied difference between trying to use metallic arts on Rosharan surges: a Spike would steal the literal Nahel Bond, but while it can store the ability to use Surges it seems like the Bond itself should be a little more out of reach for the same general reason that it takes two separate spikes to steal the Bond.  It seems like it might be storing the active Investiture response (ie the surge effect) rather than the fundamental ability to create them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Would you mind elaborating on that part?

Every time a memory is retrieved it decays slightly, most notably with visual memories. This is why Sazed speaks of needing to re-record things at certain intervals in order to keep them accurate. In active memory, the memories are able to be changed.

Even if I'm misremembering, and retrieved copper memories do get returned to long term memory... There's still all kinds of degradation there on its own. 

In order to maintain a "perfect" memory, it needs to be returned to a coppermind as quickly as possible. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Every time a memory is retrieved it decays slightly, most notably with visual memories. This is why Sazed speaks of needing to re-record things at certain intervals in order to keep them accurate. In active memory, the memories are able to be changed.

Even if I'm misremembering, and retrieved copper memories do get returned to long term memory... There's still all kinds of degradation there on its own. 

In order to maintain a "perfect" memory, it needs to be returned to a coppermind as quickly as possible. 

Ah, gotcha, though you were saying something about them degrading IN the coppermind, nevermind. 

Chasing this idea of discrete storage versus scaled storage in Metalminds:  Most metalminds store some fluid commodity trait (for lack of a better phrase), something nice and basic and easily thought of as an Energy like Weight or Strength or Heat.  Some have qualitative distinctions (like storing individual senses in Tin), but are still non-specific in quantity (you are storing Sight, not a specific Vision).  The exceptions to this are Copper that you a store specific chunk of Memory, apparently Nicrosil where you store an all-or-nothing ability to use/manipulate Investiture, and (possibly) Bendalloy depending on how much it can counter for a nutritionally incomplete diet.  Memories are a discrete all-or-nothing thing when you store them, though I have to assume there's some control over duration, break points, etc (especially in the case of Experience memories versus learned Information).  So, in the cosmere are Memories normally an Investiture Construct, or is is storing something else that records the memory?  Investiture and the Realm's interact with physics on equal footing, but the majority of where that happens is in the mind and on the boundary between perception and reality; do we think memories themselves (absent even a feruchemist) are naturally Investiture constructs (as compared to the chemistry-based paradigm taught in RL)? 

 

And as a tangent, if the Nicrosil Investiture Storage work like memories, how much can it be parsed out?  Does it allow for separate metalminds for each power (the way Tin requires separate ones per Sensory type)?  Would a full Feruchemist be able to store all Metals in one metalminds, or would it require a separate one for each?  For that matter could you steal all metals with a single spike from a full Feruchemist/allomancer, or does it always take the appropriate spike per metal/ability?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Quantus said:

So, in the cosmere are Memories normally an Investiture Construct, or is is storing something else that records the memory?

I think that yes, it is separate, because a Cognitive Shadow maintains their memories without need of a brain in which to store it. 

My issue with the excision model of Nicrosil is that it wouldn't simply be useless for a Soulbearer, it would be useless for a full Feruchemist other than in giving away their powers. 

It would also make compounding even more OP, because a permanent charge means you would burn a storage and get a permanent power increase. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that yes, it is separate, because a Cognitive Shadow maintains their memories without need of a brain in which to store it. 

My issue with the excision model of Nicrosil is that it wouldn't simply be useless for a Soulbearer, it would be useless for a full Feruchemist other than in giving away their powers. 

It would also make compounding even more OP, because a permanent charge means you would burn a storage and get a permanent power increase. 

 

That's true, and while Im fine with a single type of ferring being functionally useless the way some Mistings are (and Aluminum arguably is already), I do feel it should have some use besides facilitating power sharing to the original Feruchemists.   

 

There may be another possible read of the new WOB that might offer a sort of middle-ground:  He may have simple been saying that storing Investiture is an All-or Nothing sort of thing (like Copper/Memories) in the sense that you are storing the ability rather than a Quantity; meaning if you where also a Misting you couldnt fill&tap your metalmind to get that cloud penetrating double-strength Bronze (for example).  That's a qualitatively relevant distinction and a way to read the statement that doesnt have implications on the nicrosil medallions needing to be refilled, or at least it allows for the possibility that the Investiture signature/capability being stored could also degrade while being tapped and/or utilized in the same way Copper Memories do.  In terms of mechanisms that would limit the OP of medallions, that could do it nicely because it would mean that the Nicrosil charge would loose effectiveness over time (at similar rates to hemalurgic spike decay, if I had to guess) and need to be refreshed by an actual Soulbearer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Quantus or, as I'll choose to believe until shown differently in a clearer WoB or the books, medallions "pull out" a charge (connect by my model) that does not deplete, and normal Nicrosil Feruchemy functions according to the standard model we've seen.

It would still do basically nothing for Ferrings or even compounder, but would have been kind of nuts if it had been Known in TFE. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How are they imbuing Connection into the medallion? In a Duraluminum mind? If so the mind cannot be accessed by anyone other than a Duraluminum Ferring. You say they are putting their connection into a medallion. I don't see any evidence to this being possible with Scadrian magic. We have never seen it used in this method. Your idea is that the user is giving their connection to the medallion? Wouldn't this method completely screw up the connections for the individual? Likely so much so they wouldn't be able to create a second medallion. It would take years to rebuild that Connection. They wouldn't just be storing and tapping connection. They'd be essentially giving away their Connection.

How is the Hemalurgic charge here getting into individuals? We don't know fully how Nicrosilminds function, but I see no evidence that it would trick your spirit web into believing you have the power. If it did work it would likely interfere with your own spiritweb while you are using the medallion. Hemalurgy you aren't just adding in more. You are removing something. Even if the Connection is somehow tricking your spiritweb it would temporarily have to be bypassing your own spiritweb making you lose access to part of your own soul.

I think this is much easier than we are making it. We suddenly have a metal that replicates investiture. At the same time we are introduced to a new technology. This seems like a very major hint that the two are connected. I suspect an Ettmetal alloy is at play. My guess is alloyed Nicrosil externalizes the power allowing anyone touching it to gain the ability. Very simple very clean production. The major limitation being access to Harmonium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus or, as I'll choose to believe until shown differently in a clearer WoB or the books, medallions "pull out" a charge (connect by my model) that does not deplete, and normal Nicrosil Feruchemy functions according to the standard model we've seen.

It would still do basically nothing for Ferrings or even compounder, but would have been kind of nuts if it had been Known in TFE. 

Im not challenging your Medallion model with that statement (I dont think it disagrees with any particular part of your proposed Medallion process or function), just trying to suss out what "the Standard Model" means for Nicrosil in light of the new Copper WOB.  I just dont think it actually confirms that Nicrosil does not loose its effectiveness with use the way every other feruchemy (including Copper) does.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not challenging your Medallion model with that statement (I dont think it disagrees with any particular part of your proposed Medallion process or function), just trying to suss out what "the Standard Model" means for Nicrosil in light of the new Copper WOB.  I just dont think it actually confirms that Nicrosil does not loose its effectiveness with use the way every other feruchemy (including Copper) does.  

That's my entire point. I think we're talking past each other here. 

The question in Page's WoB specifically asks about the nicrosil in medallions. I don't think that we can use it to determine anything about standard F-nicrosil. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's my entire point. I think we're talking past each other here. 

The question in Page's WoB specifically asks about the nicrosil in medallions. I don't think that we can use it to determine anything about standard F-nicrosil. 

I guess that would be right if you're thinking that storing the Identity-free, hyper-connected Hemalurgic charge of Investiture use is going to be a qualitatively different that just storing standard Investiture-use in Nicrosil.  Which....seeing it written out like that does seem like I should have expected.  I thinking the storage step of your theory was a standard application, but it's storing both a hack of hemalurgy (with a side of Identity) and separately a hack of Connection, so it would almost have to operate on odd rules. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if I could get behind the concept that overcharging yourself with connection while filling a metal mind with Investiture will cause the Investiture to, somehow, have more Connection, why would that get around the need to spike someone in the proper place?  How does that "Trick the Spirit Web into thinking it's been spiked"?  Sure, you could make an overly connected Nicrosil mind.  It works with Identity, why not Connection?  But Hemalurgy requires being pierced, and it requires it in a very, very specific place for it to work.  If this were to work, you would have to place the medalion in the spot that would need to be pierced.  

 

Here's a question.  What happens when a spiked individual granting Brass Feruchemy stores their Identity-less investiture into a metal mind?   Would it be the same as if a Brass Ferring stored in the Nicrosil?  Or would it store something slightly different?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2018 at 1:08 AM, BitBitio said:

Brandon might just blow everything out of the water by making 'Excisors' do something completely different from anything. Or it might have something to do with a particular WoB. Lemme find it.

Yeah. The Excisors plays an important role in all of this. A lot of the theories here make reasonable points, but I can't get behind any of this without know what the Excisors is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Even if I could get behind the concept that overcharging yourself with connection while filling a metal mind with Investiture will cause the Investiture to, somehow, have more Connection, why would that get around the need to spike someone in the proper place?  How does that "Trick the Spirit Web into thinking it's been spiked"?  Sure, you could make an overly connected Nicrosil mind.  It works with Identity, why not Connection?  But Hemalurgy requires being pierced, and it requires it in a very, very specific place for it to work.  If this were to work, you would have to place the medalion in the spot that would need to be pierced.  

Exactly. We can say that it is not very likely this is the way medallions are created.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

But Hemalurgy requires being pierced, and it requires it in a very, very specific place for it to work.  If this were to work, you would have to place the medalion in the spot that would need to be pierced.  

The point of spiking in specific places is to create a connection between the hemalurgic spike and the spiritweb, thereby merging the two and granting power. Therefore, it should be possible to artificially create the connection through other means and therefore subvert the specific spike placement that hemalurgy normally requires.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Here's a question.  What happens when a spiked individual granting Brass Feruchemy stores their Identity-less investiture into a metal mind?   Would it be the same as if a Brass Ferring stored in the Nicrosil?  Or would it store something slightly different?  

Probably would be the same. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

How does that "Trick the Spirit Web into thinking it's been spiked"?

Because a spiritweb is just a mass of investiture and connection to begin with. Normally that's all laced with Identity to say "all of this is me" but a complete lack of Identity means that a valid part can act as if it's a part of any spiritweb just by connecting to it. 

It's not so much a trick that spike is placed, as it is just that that piece is a part of you. 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

But Hemalurgy requires being pierced, and it requires it in a very, very specific place for it to work.

Yes. Because that is a piece of spiritweb that still has the Identity of another person, so much so that it will let you in some instances use the metalminds of a Feruchemist stolen from. 

The spike is not hyper Connected in the way that I'm proposing, and it's something the would be forcibly rejected due to the Identity conflict. So you need to place it specifically and precisely within the body so that it functions where it's supposed to. 

I get that you don't agree with this idea, and that's fine. It's speculation. I fail to see why it's implausible though. Spikes have plenty of reasons to function thway that they do that would be completely non-present in the medallions. 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Here's a question.  What happens when a spiked individual granting Brass Feruchemy stores their Identity-less investiture into a metal mind?   Would it be the same as if a Brass Ferring stored in the Nicrosil?  Or would it store something slightly different?  

Considering that inquisitors stored stolen traits all the time, I don't see why Nicrosil would treat a stolen power any differently. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are so many problems, but there is one fundamental problem at the very core of this theory. How are connecting the medallions? Duralumin manipulates your connection. How are you super charging the medallion with Connection? You can connect yourself to the medallion. You cannot connect the medallion to other things. Feruchemy works by using your own power and storing it in specific metal. If you are storing your connection in something else this isn't Feruchemy. You could probably accomplish super charging the connection of an object in other magic systems, but you for sure cannot do what you are proposing with Feruchemy. It goes against the fundamentals of how the system works.

Edited by Alyxara
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Alyxara said:

There are so many problems, but there is one fundamental problem at the very core of this theory. How are connecting the medallions? Duralumin manipulates your connection. How are you super charging the medallion with Connection? You can connect yourself to the medallion. You cannot connect the medallion to other things. Feruchemy works by using your own power and storing it in specific metal. If you are storing your connection in something else this isn't Feruchemy. You could probably accomplish super charging the connection of an object in other magic systems, but you for sure cannot do what you are proposing with Feruchemy. It goes against the fundamentals of how the system works.

The creation of medallions somehow involve Duralumin Feruchemy. Give that there is no duralumin in the medallions, it is likely in my opinion that however it is using it goes beyond what we know of Duralumin Feruchemy, which frankly is practically nothing anyways. Brandon has mentioned previously that the medallions involve someway of connecting to the magic and tricking it by making it appear that you have certain spiritwebs parts that you don't actually have. Somehow the medallion are connecting to the wearer and inserting some ability to use the Metallic Arts, either nicrosil feruchemy if you think that they're tapping additional powers from the nicrosil, or the other powers if you think it's inserting the other powers directly from the nicrosilmind. Either way, we aware currently unaware of any aspect of the Metallic Arts which would allow someone to do this, but since it involves connection, Duralumin Feruchemy seems like a likely source. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...