Calderis

Step by step process of medallion creation.

54 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Alright I'm going to try this again. Here is how I think a medallion is made.

Single Power Medallion

To start, you need a medallion or spike to grant aluminum Feruchemy to the person who has the power you wish to put in a medallion. This person is a willing participant. They store their Identity, and the power needed is spiked out. 

You now have an unkeyed hemalurgic spike. 

Next, you need a person who has, through whatever combination of Spikes, medallions, and natural ability, all of the following. Aluminum, Duralumin, and Nicrosil Feruchemy, and the allomantic ability corresponding to the type of spike that stores the power stolen. 

This person Stores all of their Identity, and heavily taps Connection (whether this is a general thing, or a specific type of Connection I don't know. I don't think we know enough about it) imprinting their stores with Connection enabling the touch bond of the Medallions. 

Identity free, and heavily Connected, this person burns the unkeyed Spike, and immediately stores what is produced in a nicrosilmind. 

You now have a Hemalurgic charge, free of Identity and stored with connection to whoever holds it, tricking their spiritweb into believing that a spike has been properly placed to grant them the power (without the damage that normally occurs, avoiding the issue of hemalurgy's weakness). 

Multiple Power Medallions and the Reason for the Three Power Limit

As you create these medallions, you'll eventually end up with a three power medallion that will give you all three types of Feruchemy needed to make them. No spikes needed in the maker.

At this point, you just need to burn and store multiple spikes. No problem. 

Except for the limit of spikes that a human can have. Three spikes burned, three powers stored...and an attempt at a Fourth puts the maker above the threshold of control.

Interference

The Connection trick is why multiple medallions interfere with each other. By using Connection to convince the Spiritual Aspect that a spike has been placed, you create this limitation. Multiple medallions attempt to trick the Spiritweb in the same manner and it causes a mixed signal which interferes with both medallions. 

It's like trying to listen to two radio stations broadcast over the same frequency. Instead of one clear signal, you get a garbled mess of unintelligible noise. 

Assumptions

There are two main assumptions made here, that I know some people disagree with. 

The nature of Nicrosil Feruchemy. Some people believe that Nicrosil is only capable of storing powers. I believe that Nicrosil can store any part of the Spiritweb, which is coincidentally what hemalurgy steals. If I'm incorrect, this method does not work. 

Duralumin Feruchemy. Connection is not, in itself, Investiture. It is a property of, or force applied to, Investiture per this WoB. 

Quote

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

source

So I believe that while tapping and storing Connection can have immediate effects, as seen with the translation medallions, I think it functions like Aluminum Feruchemy. It changes the level of Connection of the Investiture of the Spiritweb as a whole. As such that Connection, or lack thereof, would be preserved when the Investiture is stored, just as Identity is. Again, if this assumption is incorrect this method fails.

Edit: adding in two wobs to this. First, one I asked of Brandon recently 

Quote

Calderis

Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? 

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing.

source

Doesn't tell us much, but it does show that the nicrosil in the medallions is not just standard Nicrosil Feruchemy. 

Next this, which I found while looking for something else, and I think reiterates the point above, and supports the need for Connection manipulation. 

Quote

Questioner

So nicrosil.  Wax couldn’t use a blank gold metalmind because he’s not a gold ferring, why can he use a blank nicrosil metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

So this will all come out eventually but the idea is there are certain ways to connect yourself to magic, to hack the magic and make it think you have the Spiritual DNA that you don’t actually have.  And this is one of the ways.

Questioner

So then the people who made this medallion have this thing that a regular nicrosil Ferring couldn’t--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you’re picking up on it. We’ll dig deeper into it as the series progresses.

source

 

Edited by Calderis
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Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)
#3 
 
 

Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

 

This WoB has some implications that suggest burning a Hemalurgic spike, even an unkeyed one would not result in the creation of a medallion.

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3 minutes ago, BitBitio said:

This WoB has some implications that suggest burning a Hemalurgic spike, even an unkeyed one would not result in the creation of a medallion.

That one is almost 8 years old. It's been contradicted by more recent WoBs. 

Quote

Czanos

Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one?

Brandon Sanderson

Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power…

Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself.

source
Quote

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

source

Regardless, burning a spike is something that I think they need to store immediately... The alternative would be.. Unpleasant. 

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Pretty sure that you couldn’t just burn and store without suffering the problems. 

 

‘Here’s my counter method.

Have a full Feruchemist. He gets a Medalion with a Nicrosil ring and a Brass Ring. He also gets a chunk of Aluminum. He stores his identity in the Aluminum, and then stores his Investiture in the Nicrosil, and heat in the Brass. Boom. Medallion of warmth.  The Brass is just for convenience, though.  Technically, all you need is the Nicrosil. 

Every Feruchemist/Alomancer is required to accept spiking once they reach a certain age.  They more than often take Nicrosil and Aluminum Feruchemy, but also some of every other type. Eventually, they find Nicrosil Mistings. They can compound the Investiture granted by The Medalions. Give them a spike or a medallion with the power desired, and they can make medallions that basically will never run out of Investiture. Create Allomantic nicrosil/Feruchemical nicrosil medalions to shorten the process. Spike them at the appointed time, and give those spikes to new Ferrings. Spike them and give those spikes to Mistings, because the Investiture in the medallions will need recharging eventually. If no Nicrosil ferings or mistings are born in a generation, give the spikes to whatever type of Misting or Ferring you want to make medalions out of, if only to recharge the medallions. 

 

I know now some think that because Brandon didn’t expressly say they tapped Investiture that they didn’t, but that makes this needlessly complicated. They are tapping Investiture.  Sometimes Simpler is Better.  

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Pretty sure that you couldn’t just burn and store without suffering the problems. 

Compounders do it all the time. Rashek's immortality trick would be impossible otherwise. Marsh has plenty of age from a single small bag of atium after three hundred years. 

Spoiler
Quote

Questioner 1

How did Marsh survive for so three hundred years and *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

Compounding atium. He got a little pouch that one of the kandra gets sent out with if you watch, and then Marsh shows up and he has the pouch.

Questioner 2

<When is that>?

Brandon Sanderson

Go look for the little pouch of atium.

source

Quote

Kirrin

Marsh? The book doesn't mention him after he fights with Elend.

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh is alive. I changed this from when I talked to [Peter]. I realized some things about his use of Allomancy that would allow him to survive. Actually, he is immortal. He can pull off the same Allomancy/Feruchemy trick that the Lord Ruler did. (And he knows it too, since he was there when Sazed explained how it was done in Book One.) He's actually the only living person who actually knows this trick for certain. (Though there's a chance that Spook, Ham and Breeze heard about it from Vin and the others.) So yes, if there were another series, Marsh would make an appearance.

Douglas

I thought that trick required atium and involved burning the atium. With all the atium gone and Sazed not making any more, it would therefore not be possible even for a full mistborn/feruchemist. Am I wrong, is Sazed providing atium specifically for Marsh to allow a friend and valuable servant to survive, or what?

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh has the bag of Atium that KanPaar sent to be sold, as well as several nuggets in his stomach. So, I guess 'immortal' is the wrong phrase. He's got the only remaining atium in the world and can keep himself around for a long, long while—but he WILL eventually run out. Unless Sazed does something.

Footnote: Brandon had earlier told Peter that in his mind, Marsh was dead having been "burned out by the sun"
source

 

And think of Miles. If the healing is manifest its used and you don't get to store it. The entire strength of compounding s is the ability to store the power for later without actually using it. 

33 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Have a full Feruchemist. He gets a Medalion with a Nicrosil ring and a Brass Ring. He also gets a chunk of Aluminum. He stores his identity in the Aluminum, and then stores his Investiture in the Nicrosil, and heat in the Brass. Boom. Medallion of warmth.  The Brass is just for convenience, though.  Technically, all you need is the Nicrosil. 

And unless a person was already a Soulbearer Ferring, this method wouldn't work, and they would have to tap the nicrosil. 

33 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I know now some think that because Brandon didn’t expressly say they tapped Investiture that they didn’t, but that makes this needlessly complicated. They are tapping Investiture.  Sometimes Simpler is Better.  

Show me any other instance of a Feruchemist using a metalmind in their own PoV in which it is not shown and I'll buy that. But it isn't. Feruchemy, when used, is always acknowledged. Brandon's ommision is a glaring contrast to everywhere else on the books. 

For reference, here are the two "discoveries" of unsealed metalminds. 

Quote

“What do they do?” MeLaan asked.
“Make you lighter,” the masked man said.
As soon as he said it—as soon as she knew what it did—something inside of Marasi understood. She was holding metal that, somehow, she could feel. It wanted something from her, and she poured it in, filling the metal … the metalmind.
She grew lighter, rising on her seat, the force of her body pushing less on her backside. Telsin gasped, obviously experiencing a similar sensation.

Quote

It was right there. The coin he’d been given by the beggar, shining in the faint starlight. Drewton must have found it in his pocket. Wax reached out, hesitated a moment, and then slipped it from the table before stepping out into the mist.
Could it be? he wondered, holding up the coin. Two different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap. Wax gasped.
They called them copperminds. A very special kind of Feruchemical storage. One that stored memories.
He tapped it.

The nicrosil is not tapped. The iron is filled, and the copper is tapped. That's it. 

Until a use of a power can be shown without being acknowledged in the text elsewhere, I find the alternative drastically out of character for Brandon's writing.

Edit: for further evidence towards them not being tapped. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosil mind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

source

You don't tap an Honorblade either. You just hold it and are given powers. 

Edited by Calderis
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Hopefully adding something to this conversation, Allomancy/Feruchemy is so uncommon in Southern Scadrial that any practitioner is effectively a God to them. There's not enough metalborn to make a Hemalurgy assembly line to make medallions in the south. Hemalurgy therefore cannot be involved in medallion making.

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3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Hopefully adding something to this conversation, Allomancy/Feruchemy is so uncommon in Southern Scadrial that any practitioner is effectively a God to them. There's not enough metalborn to make a Hemalurgy assembly line to make medallions in the south. Hemalurgy therefore cannot be involved in medallion making.

They are rarer, which is why harvesting and multiplying the abilities are an absolute necessity. 

It's compounding. As long as you get more medallions out than spikes needed, it will be used.

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Which part of this do you consider the "Excisor" of the process, the bit that was gifted them by the Sovereign?  Would it be the Volunteer/Donor? The Identity-less Spike?  Something else?  Bands of Morning implied it was an object and/or device, though Ive had my doubts on that. 

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11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Which part of this do you consider the "Excisor" of the process, the bit that was gifted them by the Sovereign?  Would it be the Volunteer/Donor? The Identity-less Spike?  Something else?  Bands of Morning implied it was an object and/or device, though Ive had my doubts on that. 

An Excisor, in my opinion, is just a fancy name for a Spike.

Hemalurgy is Spiritual excision. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

An Excisor, in my opinion, is just a fancy name for a Spike.

Hemalurgy is Spiritual excision. 

I can get behind that.  It doesnt quite fit with how I was imagining the Spirit-web chunk in the spike behaving, especially if burned, but I cant think of anything to contradict it.  I had previously thought of a spirit-web as being a more cohesive construct than the sort of "Investiture Charge" like in metalminds that are subject to the Hack; Id thought the Investiture Charge in the spike was just there to facilitate the realmic connection and anchor the chunk of Spiritweb to the physical realm, and wasnt thinking of the Spirit-web chunk as an Investiture Charge in and of itself. 

 

Corollary:  If Excisor is basically just the Southern Scadrial term for Hemalurgy, it would imply that they had no tradition of Hemalurgy prior to the Sovereigns return post-harmony. That would be interesting in a random sort of way. 

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They had no history of Feruchemy, either, and likely no history of Alomancy.  They wouldn't have anyone to tell them about it.  When was the last time you swallowed some steel and tried to burn it?  

And yeah, compounding works by burning a metal and storing the charge, but brandon specifically said that trying to burn a spike would do some weird things to your spirit web.  I doubt you could simply "Burn and store" the charge from a spike an not have it do weird things to your spirit web.  It still touches you.  You still burn the metal, take it into you, and then store the charge.  Just because you did it fast doesn't mean it doesn't still affect you.

There are just a lot of assumptions in the theory, especially about Connection.  Why would tapping Connection transfer to the charge stored in the metal mind?  And then if it did, why would that allow someone else to access that Connection?  And if it did, why would that "Trick your spirit web" into thinking that you were spiked in the exact right spot?  That's not how Hemalurgy works.  If you spike a Mistborn, the power you get is determined by where it's placed in your body, not where it comes from in their body. You could take the same spike, put it in a different spot, and grant a different power.  How would simple "Connection" know where you are wanting to put the spike?   

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1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

They had no history of Feruchemy, either, and likely no history of Alomancy.  They wouldn't have anyone to tell them about it.  When was the last time you swallowed some steel and tried to burn it?  

You mean like Kelsier? 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

And yeah, compounding works by burning a metal and storing the charge, but brandon specifically said that trying to burn a spike would do some weird things to your spirit web.  I doubt you could simply "Burn and store" the charge from a spike an not have it do weird things to your spirit web.  It still touches you.  You still burn the metal, take it into you, and then store the charge.  Just because you did it fast doesn't mean it doesn't still affect you.

Then miles shouldn't have been able to store what he compounded. If the power is manifest, it's used. 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

 Why would tapping Connection transfer to the charge stored in the metal mind?

Why does removing Identity work that way? 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

And then if it did, why would that allow someone else to access that Connection?

Why do the Honorblades, which function similarly? A touch bond. A bond is Connection. 

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

And if it did, why would that "Trick your spirit web" into thinking that you were spiked in the exact right spot?  That's not how Hemalurgy works.  If you spike a Mistborn, the power you get is determined by where it's placed in your body, not where it comes from in their body. You could take the same spike, put it in a different spot, and grant a different power.

You could not put a a spike I  two different places and get a different power. A spike contains a specific charge. If placed in an incorrect bindpoint, it does nothing. 

I think this is because that spike is still keyed to the identity of the person it's stolen from. You Spiritual Aspect knows that it isn't yours, so it has to be forcibly anchored into a compatible spot. 

Using Connection on a charge that has no identity, means that it functions as if it's yours even disconnected. There's no risk of rejection, because there's nothing to say it belongs to someone else.

Yes, this is all speculation. Yes, there are assumptions made. I acknowledged that. Considering the way the magics work, and the things that Brandon has said about it though, I don't think any of it is unfeasible. 

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15 hours ago, Calderis said:

You could not put a a spike I  two different places and get a different power. A spike contains a specific charge. If placed in an incorrect bindpoint, it does nothing. 

I dont think this is the case, by all indications I can find the placement of the Spike in the recipient has more impact on the functionality of the spike than the point used to steal the spiritweb in the first place.  If the initial charge spiking was the only thing that changed the effect, and the placement was just a pass/fail compatibility issue, then I dont see how the Kandra would get benefits form having Fluid Binding Points, or how there could be any distinction between placing a spike in the left vs right eye

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45 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont think this is the case, by all indications I can find the placement of the Spike in the recipient has more impact on the functionality of the spike than the point used to steal the spiritweb in the first place.  If the initial charge spiking was the only thing that changed the effect, and the placement was just a pass/fail compatibility issue, then I dont see how the Kandra would get benefits form having Fluid Binding Points, or how there could be any distinction between placing a spike in the left vs right eye

Kandra having fluid bindpoints means placement is irrelevant and they can make use of the spike regardless of positioning. 

There are multiple bindpoints for powers, but your not going to steal someone's brass Allomancy and place it in a bindpoint that give you anything other than  brass Allomancy. 

This becomes more of an issue with things that are traits, and not powers. Placing the four human strength spikes from a Koloss would likely change the way I  which the spiritweb is warped. So yes, it can have varied effects with some things... But you're never giving a different power. 

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You don't steal their brass allomancy, you steal part of their spirit web.  And from what we have seen, all people who spiked were killed through the heart with a spike.  Another rule, you can only steel one power from a Mistborn or Feruchemist.  How exactly can you differentiate which of a Mistborn's powers you steel if you always kill a person by stabbing their heart?  Left ventricle is Pushing Powers and Right Ventricle is Pulling?

No, it makes more sense that you just kill someone, and then where you spike it will grant the correct power.  You are spiking that particular part of your spirit web which corresponds with their spirit web, thus making your spirit web think it's part of theirs and creating the corresponding power, but the way they die is always the same.

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@Tglassybecause intent is a major portion of hemalurgy. You get what you intend to steal.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
source

The heart has a multitude of bindpoints. You hit the correct one with the intent to steal a power and it comes out in the spike which must then be placed properly in order to take. 

Quote

Kythis

Would the spike that has all four charges, could you actually reuse it and give a different person a different power, or even the same person a different power?  

Brandon Sanderson

No.  When you first spike. . .

Kythis

It loses all the other ones?

Brandon Sanderson

No.  Where you place the spike.  

Footnote: Clarified Here.
source

The power is determined when you first place the spike... I'm the victim. That Footnote links to the previous WoB. 

And again linking to this WoB 

Quote

Kythis

When you spike somebody, say a full Mistborn, with a steel spike, it could end up with four different charges.  Does it get all four of them it just depends on where you place it?  

Brandon Sanderson

Where you place it it can get all four.  Spiking a full Mistborn wastes a lot of power and the way that it's known, I mean, it doesn't have to, but the way that it's known to do it right now.

Footnote: Clarified here
source

The spike has the potential to steal four powers by the type of metal, but per the previous, it only takes one. 

Quote

Aerlion

Is it possible to use Hemalurgic spikes to steal multiple attributes from the same person?

Brandon Sanderson

No. At least, this isn't thought to be possible

source

As all of these WoBs keep saying, it's technically possible to steal multiple things in a single spike, but not how it's currently known to be used. 

Quote

The_Vikachu

Another hemalurgy question: Is it possible to steal more than just spiritual DNA with hemalurgy? If you, say, infused someone with a hundred hemalurgic spikes charged from people who liked chicken, would the spike person enjoy chicken as well?

Brandon Sanderson

You can steal quite a lot with Hemalurgy. Anything encoded on a person's soul, really. Not sure if chicken liking counts, though...

source

It can steal anything encoded into the soul... I'm lying that it steals code, which is specific. 

Quote

Odium's_Shard

Lastly, less pressingly, do Spirit Points (Hemalurgic spots) apply to ever magic system, and through the cosmere at large? Ie. could Hemalurgy be used to take any other magic systems aspects, and do other magic systems also have these 'Points', such as Body Focuses, that work in similar ways?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes.

source

You need to know the right bindpoints in order to steal powers... 

There's more than enough WoBs on this. 

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58 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kandra having fluid bindpoints means placement is irrelevant and they can make use of the spike regardless of positioning. 

There are multiple bindpoints for powers, but your not going to steal someone's brass Allomancy and place it in a bindpoint that give you anything other than  brass Allomancy. 

This becomes more of an issue with things that are traits, and not powers. Placing the four human strength spikes from a Koloss would likely change the way I  which the spiritweb is warped. So yes, it can have varied effects with some things... But you're never giving a different power. 

I guess it depends on what we are calling different powers.  The harvest side of the process seems to be fairly broad, in that they are almost always taken from the same heart bindpoint and it's mostly governed by the spike material (and the harvester's Intent, if Atium is going to work), but that the placement is going to potentially have wildly different outward effects.  For example, Id fully expect the same steel spike to provide Steel-Sight if placed in the eye socket and Coinshot abilities while in some other bind point, and apparently there is even a functional difference between the left and right eye. 

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3 hours ago, Quantus said:

I guess it depends on what we are calling different powers.  The harvest side of the process seems to be fairly broad, in that they are almost always taken from the same heart bindpoint and it's mostly governed by the spike material (and the harvester's Intent, if Atium is going to work), but that the placement is going to potentially have wildly different outward effects.  For example, Id fully expect the same steel spike to provide Steel-Sight if placed in the eye socket and Coinshot abilities while in some other bind point, and apparently there is even a functional difference between the left and right eye. 

Steel sight is not "granted," inquisitors learn it as a skill out of necessity. But any Coinshot could learn how. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

source

Yes, as Zane shows the way it works is going to vary slightly. where the spike is placed may give strength to your pushes, or better control. 

Quote

Kaimipono

What was Zane's hemalurgical power? (Or was he just spiked for control?)

Brandon Sanderson

Extra power with Pushing on metals. It lent him extremely great precision.

source

But a spike that contains someone's stolen sDNA that grants steel Allomancy is always going to give some form of steel Allomancy.

Theres absolutely no point to the designations on which metals can steal what in hemalurgy otherwise. 

And again, to reiterate, 

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

The harvest side of the process seems to be fairly broad, in that they are almost always taken from the same heart bindpoint and it's mostly governed by the spike material

This is untrue. The heart just has many bindpoints packed closely together. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
source

Yes, intent matters a lot, but the intent is meaningless if you don't hit the right bindpoint for the power you want. 

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11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Steel sight is not "granted," inquisitors learn it as a skill out of necessity. But any Coinshot could learn how. 

Yes, as Zane shows the way it works is going to vary slightly. where the spike is placed may give strength to your pushes, or better control. 

But a spike that contains someone's stolen sDNA that grants steel Allomancy is always going to give some form of steel Allomancy.

Theres absolutely no point to the designations on which metals can steal what in hemalurgy otherwise. 

And again, to reiterate, 

This is untrue. The heart just has many bindpoints packed closely together. 

Yes, intent matters a lot, but the intent is meaningless if you don't hit the right bindpoint for the power you want. 

Fair enough, I'd misunderstood the details on both Steel Sight and the Heart as a Bind Point during the harvest stage of hemalurgy. I think we're agreed on the function and limits of the hemalurgy. I was never trying to argue that a Spike with Steel allomancy would grant something outside of Steel allomancy, just that I thought the implantation bind point (as opposed to the harvest bind point) played a much more specific and dominant role in how the power manifested. 

 

I also am still struggling to think of the Spiritweb chunk in the same "Charge" terms as the investiture charge getting stored in the Metalminds. Id always considered the Spiritweb something qualitatively distinct (and more complex) than the sort of Investiture "frequencies" of metalminds or allomantic burning, but I couldnt say why exactly.

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New WoB from Pagerunner. 

Quote

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

source

The framework of the question is misleading I think, by I think this fits my model, and whether it does or not, it's confirmation that medallions don't need to be refilled. 

So to reiterate, what I think happens that this WoB doesn't disprove, is that you make contact with the metalmind and become connected to the hemalurgic charge within. You break contact, and it stays, unexpended, in the metalmind. 

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I think you're stretching.  Brandon said it's like a copper mind.  You tap, then return it, so there's no need to recharge it.  Which makes sense, as you aren't "using up" the ability to use Investiture, it's just like memories without degradation.  Especially since Wax literally says "You tap the Nicrosil first, giving you the ability to tap the iron."  

I don't think there needs to be this huge hemalurgical process.  Especially since as far as we know, the only type of spike that can steal Spiritual Feruchemy is an Atium spike.  The only type of person who could burn an Atium spike is an Mistborn or an Atium Fering.  Atium only appears on one place and is basically gone except for Marsh's bag, and Mistborn are only from Northern Scadrial, granted by the beads of Laresium.  Everyone else would have been an Atium Misting, which is possible, but with no Atium, pointless.  You'd also need Atium for every person you spike.  Every very rare Feruchemist and Allomancer.  

Even if one of the new metals could steal Spiritual Feruchemy, and even if Kelsior somehow learned about how to use said spike and learned the bind points to steal that particular type of Spiritual Feruchemy, there are no Mistborn, so the only person who can burn said spike is a Misting of that particular type of Allomancy, which in Southern Scadrial, is extremely rare.  And, it takes an incredible amount of killing to make your plan work.  They don't have that many Metalborn.  

It makes more economical sense that it's just an open Nicrosil charge.  No death necessary.  

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Yes, but I can't tap Nicrosil, but I can use a medallion.

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As I've said in other threads, I'll believe I'm stretching when there is any evidence elsewhere in the books of a time where a metalmind is tapped from the Feruchemists PoV without it being acknowledged in some way. 

Feruchemy works by consciously tapping without exception other than the medallions. You decide when and how much to tap. 

Until that is shown to not be the case, the lack of tapping both the weight and memory medallions is a glaring omission that I think is a mistake to write off. 

As I said, the framing of the question is, in my opinion, misleading. 

Edit: 

Quote

I don't think there needs to be this huge hemalurgical process.

@Tglassy As I said to your post on the other thread, I absolutely think it does as this WoB (already posted there) implies, through the need to check if making the bands without hemalurgy would even be possible for mistings and Ferrings working together, that hemalurgy is normally used.

Quote

Yata [PENDING REVIEW]

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

source
Quote

Especially since as far as we know, the only type of spike that can steal Spiritual Feruchemy is an Atium spike.  

Except we don't know what literally half of the metals steal in hemalurgy. Maybe we'll get those in December with the HoA leathbounds hemalurgy chart, but there's no need for new metals. 

Kelsier is bound to his body by the spike in his eye, per this WoB. 

Quote

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

source

This isn't stealing Spiritual Feruchemy, but it is stealing a purely Spiritual trait as it almost has to be done using Connection. 

Kelsier held a Shard, and used the knowledge gained to figure out more in Hemalurgy than I'm guessing anyone has ever known about it save an actual shard focused on working out its secrets. I have no doubt he knows which metals do what. 

Quote

Even if one of the new metals could steal Spiritual Feruchemy, and even if Kelsior somehow learned about how to use said spike and learned the bind points to steal that particular type of Spiritual Feruchemy, there are no Mistborn, so the only person who can burn said spike is a Misting of that particular type of Allomancy, which in Southern Scadrial, is extremely rare.  And, it takes an incredible amount of killing to make your plan work.  They don't have that many Metalborn.  

It makes more economical sense that it's just an open Nicrosil charge.  No death necessary

That precisely why it makes sense. First off, we know they have fewer Metalborn than the north obviously, but we don't actually know the numbers, because it's not equivalent to pre-Rashek times. Harmony changed the snapping threshold. 

Secondly, I only mentioned a single metalmind created in the OP for simplicity, but the spikes would be compounded. You'd get enough to make multiple nicrosilminds for the medallions from each spike burned. The entire point is to turn one person's power into multiple people's power. 

I think this is one of the main reasons that Metalborn are revered there. They make their way of life possible. 

Edited by Calderis
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Brandon might just blow everything out of the water by making 'Excisors' do something completely different from anything. Or it might have something to do with a particular WoB. Lemme find it.

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23 hours ago, Calderis said:

Kelsier is bound to his body by the spike in his eye, per this WoB. 

This isn't stealing Spiritual Feruchemy, but it is stealing a purely Spiritual trait as it almost has to be done using Connection.

This is mostly a Devils Advocate statement, but I dont think that is nessesarily true.  In any other magic system Id readily agree with you, but with Hemalurgy I think that anchoring some percentage of a Spiritweb to a Physical Body via the Spike Suture coexisting in the Spiritual and Physical is a fundamental function of the magic system asa whole, and wouldnt need to be any more specific applikcation than that (since you arent splicing separate pieces together on the spiritual side, just attaching it back to the Physical.  Certainly I dont think it should require a different or more exotic metal than the Lynchpin spike that Inquisitors needed to keep their frayed spiritweb together, which expect is more or less the same function.  Another example of something I think is a similar function is how the Kandra need to Spikes to maintain their Cognitive integrity, but per WOB any old Invested pointy rod would do it, it doesnt actually have to be an functionally Invested Hemalurgic Spike. 

 

I think I would lump this in with how Healing would take very speicific Investiture in the Metallic Arts, but over on Roshar it's more just a natural extension of having Stormlight flowing through the person and doesnt require a specific application/technique of the local magic. 

 

 

On 10/16/2018 at 11:17 AM, Tglassy said:

Even if one of the new metals could steal Spiritual Feruchemy, and even if Kelsior somehow learned about how to use said spike and learned the bind points to steal that particular type of Spiritual Feruchemy, there are no Mistborn, so the only person who can burn said spike is a Misting of that particular type of Allomancy, which in Southern Scadrial, is extremely rare.  And, it takes an incredible amount of killing to make your plan work.  They don't have that many Metalborn. 

For what it's worth, that's only a restriction if Kelsier were to wait and get started in Modern/Era2 times.  It took centuries and generations for the Terric to intermingle enough to really stamp out the full Mistborn and Feruchemists, and that's lots of time with him and/or Marsh (and/or Sazed&Co.) active and likely meddling. 

Edited by Quantus
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