The Grumpy Elantrian

Hemalurgy Loopholes

13 posts in this topic

As we know, using hemalurgy essentially splices a part of a persons spiritual DNA depending on the bind point used and splicing it into another persons spirit web. This can result in different abilities being granted depending on where the spike is placed and the type of spike used. 

We also know that gold feruchemy can heal a person spiritually, not only restoring their physical bodies but their spiritual self as well.

So, would it be possible to have a full feruchemist willingly offer themselves to have one of their feruchemical abilities taken, but they have stored up a LOT of health in a goldmind. As soon as they are spiked they tap this goldmind, restoring their spiritweb and retaining their spiked ability, whilst still allowing the ability to be given to another via the spike. This could be applied to anyone if medallions with enough health are available, and would be more feasible for compounders as I presume an enormous amount of health would be necessary. 

Anyway, I welcome your thoughts.

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Yes. Pretty sure this would work

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1 minute ago, King Cole said:

Yes. Pretty sure this would work

So then it implies that you could chain produce allomancers or feruchemists as long as they have access to F-gold. And you wouldn't have to kill dozens of people for it. 

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Just now, Mistborn Radiant said:

So then it implies that you could chain produce allomancers or feruchemists as long as they have access to F-gold. And you wouldn't have to kill dozens of people for it. 

Exactly, I think this has been brought up before but I can't remember the context of it

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Theoretically yes.

Quote

KURKISTAN (GOODREADS)

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead. :)

KURKISTAN

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.

There are some WoBs that imply this leaves scarring even after healing. What that does we have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it resulted in reduced strength for the trait being spiked out.

For nearly all of the WoBs related to this topic, see my huge Hemalurgy post exploring this very idea here.

Edited by 8bitBob
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Yes it's possible... And it's still probably a bad idea. We don't know what the effects are, but there is "scarring" from any Spiritual healing. 

Quote

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of investiture in the first place.

source

 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes it's possible... And it's still probably a bad idea. We don't know what the effects are, but there is "scarring" from any Spiritual healing. 

 

But we don't really see any  negative effects after Kaladin get's his arm cut off by the shard blade. Is this because it is not as impacting on ones soul as having an ability taken from them hemalurgically?

Essentially what I'm asking is, do we know whether this 'scarring' will be that bad based on any evidence? Or is it instead that we assume it will be bad based off the way it's been spoken of? Because we know you heal according to ideals, if you replace that part of your soul to once again fit these ideals, then sure you won't have that exact piece of soul but that's not to say it won't work just as well, is it?

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Think of it this way. You injure your should and there's a little scar tissue. Nothing noticeable. You do it again and there more... Again... And again... And there's problems. 

I don't think a single healing is an issue. 

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Think of it this way. You injure your should and there's a little scar tissue. Nothing noticeable. You do it again and there more... Again... And again... And there's problems. 

I don't think a single healing is an issue. 

Yeah, that seems logical. So then would we assume that if an inquisitor say were to have stored up a whole load of health and then have all their spikes pulled out in one go whilst massively tapping and compounding health, that'd be too much damage to repair without any consequences?

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By the way, we don't even know if a Bloodmaker is more likely to not die when Hemalurgy is performed on himself. If he die on the spot... He can't use the Healing to fix himself.

There are a couple of istances in cosmere of Spiritual Shock distrupting the ability of a user to performe magic for a while (it's what happened to TLR and the reason he didn't simply pull his own metalminds back), so if you performe Hemalurgy on someone with an active auto-Healing... He probably would die like everyone else would do, of course if he survives the Hemalurgy itself, the Soul could be fixed with his own power

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3 minutes ago, Yata said:

By the way, we don't even know if a Bloodmaker is more likely to not die when Hemalurgy is performed on himself. If he die on the spot... He can't use the Healing to fix himself.

There are a couple of istances in cosmere of Spiritual Shock distrupting the ability of a user to performe magic for a while (it's what happened to TLR and the reason he didn't simply pull his own metalminds back), so if you performe Hemalurgy on someone with an active auto-Healing... He probably would die like everyone else would do, of course if he survives the Hemalurgy itself, the Soul could be fixed with his own power

Well apparently there's a WoB that addressed that and says that with correct knowledge and skill you can perform hemalurgy without killing the person. In the same way that you can perform surgery without killing the person if you know what you're doing. So presumably this would solve that issue. 

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22 minutes ago, Mistborn Radiant said:

Well apparently there's a WoB that addressed that and says that with correct knowledge and skill you can perform hemalurgy without killing the person. In the same way that you can perform surgery without killing the person if you know what you're doing. So presumably this would solve that issue. 

Unless I misrememer the wob, that was only about the physical damage. You will probably die regardless from the spiritual damage done to yourself.

Of course this scenario doesn't preclude an external source that apply Healing to the victim to make her heal. We know the Primers could store from inanimate objects, if we assume they could be used to make a subject tap too... I don't see a living being as different

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17 hours ago, Mistborn Radiant said:

But we don't really see any  negative effects after Kaladin get's his arm cut off by the shard blade. Is this because it is not as impacting on ones soul as having an ability taken from them hemalurgically?

Essentially what I'm asking is, do we know whether this 'scarring' will be that bad based on any evidence? Or is it instead that we assume it will be bad based off the way it's been spoken of? Because we know you heal according to ideals, if you replace that part of your soul to once again fit these ideals, then sure you won't have that exact piece of soul but that's not to say it won't work just as well, is it?

Hemalurgy causes more damage that Shardblade-cutting. While severed arm after healing could be a bit numb/stiff/unresponsive, hemalurgy causes increased agression, sadism (as Sanderson said you don't want to many spikes in your body), beeing more open to outside influences, and general soul twisting (at least while beeing granted, but it would be reasonable if it worked also while stealing since it causes more raw damage to the soul). 

So after Shardblade scars your body might feel weird. After Hemalurgy scars you might become deformed monster.

 

It would be interesting if it worked like muscles, regrowing stronger after beeing damaged during training. Could create an interesting character. A Nightblood-type missstake.

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