25 posts in this topic

I've only recently finished Elantris and am quite interested in the Elantrian magic system and so have been developing a character for fun.

However, if I wish to worldhop as said Elantrian character (who wouldn't if they could) I face the slight disadvantage of being away from Elantris and, oh I don't know, the magic not working. 

So the crux of my inquiry is, is it possible to somehow capture or store the Dor in some sort of vessel to carry around with you in your adventures? Would these be nicrosilminds? Spheres? Some other Thing™?

I do hope it's possible, otherwise Elantrians prove to be pretty worthless worldhoppers. 

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We see the Ire do some pretty wierd stuff in the Cognitive Realm, namely the use of that giant ‘pipeline’ that seems to be filling their fortress with power. Range might be an issue, though.

Another thing you should be able to do is to store your Connection to the Dor in a Duralumin-mind, and then when you’re far away and need to use Aons, tap the Duralumin for an extra strong Connection that will hopefully power your Aons. You will have to periodically go to Sel to recharge the Connection, though.

Since Nicrosil can store Investiture, another theory is that if you went to the Cognitive Realm of Sel and didn’t die, you could possibly store a small chunk of the Dor itself to use on your travels. You would also have to periodically recharge your metalminds, though. This is similar to the Connection tactic, though more deadly, since you’re travelling to Sel’s Cognitive Realm. It could also possibly give you better results, as instead of storing the Connection to a particular Investiture you’re storing the Investiture itself.

Hope this helps!

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10 minutes ago, I think I am here. said:

We see the Ire do some pretty wierd stuff in the Cognitive Realm, namely the use of that giant ‘pipeline’ that seems to be filling their fortress with power. Range might be an issue, though.

Another thing you should be able to do is to store your Connection to the Dor in a Duralumin-mind, and then when you’re far away and need to use Aons, tap the Duralumin for an extra strong Connection that will hopefully power your Aons. You will have to periodically go to Sel to recharge the Connection, though.

Since Nicrosil can store Investiture, another theory is that if you went to the Cognitive Realm of Sel and didn’t die, you could possibly store a small chunk of the Dor itself to use on your travels. You would also have to periodically recharge your metalminds, though. This is similar to the Connection tactic, though more deadly, since you’re travelling to Sel’s Cognitive Realm. It could also possibly give you better results, as instead of storing the Connection to a particular Investiture you’re storing the Investiture itself.

Hope this helps!

It does indeed, thanks!

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Have you read Secret History? The Ire seem to have found a way to keep at least some of their abilities.

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12 hours ago, RShara said:

Have you read Secret History? The Ire seem to have found a way to keep at least some of their abilities.

I don't think they could perform AonDor for the weird situation they were in.

I assumed the best they could do was to feed themself with Investiture (unclear if it is the Dor or something else) to keep their Elantrian status at last partially at work (unless they will die for old age) but they can't performe AonDor (by the way, for how the AonDor works... I wonder if it could be used in the CR at all...)

Edited by Yata
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10 hours ago, Yata said:

I don't think they could perform AonDor for the weird situation they were in.

I assumed the best they could do was to feed themself with Investiture (unclear if it is the Dor or something else) to keep their Elantrian status at last partially at work (unless they will die for old age) but they can't performe AonDor (by the way, for how the AonDor works... I wonder if it could be used in the CR at all...)

I did say some abilities, not all :)

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Don't forget about Stick, he is quite the effective worldhopper

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I've hust come back to this and were wondering about ways to enhance my character. I accepted the theory you proposed @I think I am here. where you store some of the door in a nicrosilmind. I then considered that a way you may be able to avoid having to return to Sel may be compounding the Dor in your nicrosilmind. i.e. Storing the door in a nicrosilmind and then burning the metalmind to increase the amount if the Dor. This would require both nicrosil feruchemy and allomancy, but that's a small matter. My question is whether the Dor would actually be able to be compounded. I don't see a reason it shouldn't be able to as you aren't doing anything different to regular compounding. Storing investiture in a piece of metal then burning the metal to amplify the investiture stored there in. So I don't see an obvious reason as to why it wouldn't work, but I welcome your opinion. 

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You are doing something different though. Scadrians are composed primarily of Preservation Investiture, and the compounding is fueled by Preservation. 

If you were to burn The Dor, you be attempting to convert the Investiture of Preservation to a mixture of Dominion and Devotion. I'm very doubtful that that sort of conversion is possible. 

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Is there anything aside from conjecture to support the idea that investitures of different shardic origins can't interact in such a way?

The only real case of investitures interacting is with Zahel and fueling his Returnedness with stormlight rather than biochroma. I don't know if that comes close to what you'd be trying to do by compounding the Dor but it at least attempts to illustrate my point. i.e: do we know that it's an issue trying to fuel one investiture with another?

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26 minutes ago, The Grumpy Elantrian said:

Is there anything aside from conjecture to support the idea that investitures of different shardic origins can't interact in such a way?

The only real case of investitures interacting is with Zahel and fueling his Returnedness with stormlight rather than biochroma. I don't know if that comes close to what you'd be trying to do by compounding the Dor but it at least attempts to illustrate my point. i.e: do we know that it's an issue trying to fuel one investiture with another?

Fueling one system with another isn't a problem. You could probably make it work, with some slight alterations to the function... But it wouldn't be the Dor that was being produced. 

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1 hour ago, The Grumpy Elantrian said:

So it would be corrupted investiture? (Corrupted in cosmere terms not our meaning)

I see two possibilities. You'd get the ability to feed Dor based abilities, exactly like fueling one system with another. No conversion, and as a result you'd get some weird side effects. 

OB spoilers. 

Spoiler

Similar to how, in my opinion at least, the Fused Surges behave differently due to being fueled by voidlight. 

OR, you'd burn the Nicrosil, get the allomantic ability, and the Dor stored within would be shunted back into you, like burning Awakened metal. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If he did that, he’d get allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal.

Footnote: supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this
source

 

Edited by Calderis
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You could probably hop to another world, but be unable to go anywhere after that.

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I believe it's canon that the Investiture of any planet can theoretically be used to fuel any magic system. Perhaps your character could AonDor some gold, buy a bunch of Breaths, and use that? Perhaps store Stormlight in nicrosilminds? Hey, maybe repurposing some of the potions briefly mentioned, the ones that made people temporary Elantrians.

I got to say, though, to be believable, your character would need to have met and talked with at some length, with an experienced worldhopper with practice converting Investiture.

Maybe deus ex Hoid, but hey, it makes sense.

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39 minutes ago, Kelsier'sGodComplex said:

Well, in Secret History, Kelsier has a vision of an Aon. (https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/83742-kelsier-saw-an-aon/) That has to count for something right? There was some magic in that right?

Pretty sure that this is Connection.  Kelsier's mind is interpreting the Selish word "Ire" and seeing the written form of the Aon.  

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I don't think you could store the Dor in a Nicrosilmind. The Investiture doesn't actually move through the Elantrian, it moves through the Aon. You could probably store your Elantrianness though. You could probably even fill the Nicrosilmind pretty fast if you were standing in Elantris when you filled it. I've recently been wondering if Elantrians could use other symbols that are geographically significant to Sel when they're traveling. I remember Shai thinking that the base symbol for Forging looked like Mai Pon, and the symbol the Bloodsealer used looked like their swampy homeland. Maybe if an Elantrian used the Mai Pon symbol while in the Rose Empire they could make their magic work. It would probably be weaker since they're also pretty far from the Aon Rao that makes Elantrian magic so much stronger, but it would still be better than nothing.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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That could certainly be a location-hack. If it would work I am guessing the issue would be figuring out which Mai Pon symbols correspond to which Aons.

Maybe the moon scepter would help here since it's function seems to be translation.

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On 10/4/2018 at 0:15 AM, I think I am here. said:

 

Another thing you should be able to do is to store your Connection to the Dor in a Duralumin-mind, and then when you’re far away and need to use Aons, tap the Duralumin for an extra strong Connection that will hopefully power your Aons. You will have to periodically go to Sel to recharge the Connection, though.

Since Nicrosil can store Investiture, another theory is that if you went to the Cognitive Realm of Sel and didn’t die, you could possibly store a small chunk of the Dor itself to use on your travels. You would also have to periodically recharge your metalminds, though. This is similar to the Connection tactic, though more deadly, since you’re travelling to Sel’s Cognitive Realm. It could also possibly give you better results, as instead of storing the Connection to a particular Investiture you’re storing the Investiture itself.

I could see the Nicrosil trick working, but I don’t think you could pull it off with Connection. From The Bands of Mourning (the book not the item) tapping Connection seems to connect you more strongly to where you are currently, not where the metalmind was created. But maybe that has to do with those metalminds being “unkeyed” and lacking an element of Identity.

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The connection trick wouldn't work, in my opinion, even on Sel.

It absolutely isn't going to work off world because the entire reason for the location issue is that the Dor is bottled up in Sel's Cognitive Realm. If your on another world and increase your Connection, it won't change the fact that the Dor is light years away from you. 

On Sel itself, the Dor is the same everywhere, Connection to it isn't the problem. The language that the Dor is able to pour out into the Physical Realm through is changed.

Increasing your Connection to someplace else isn't going to change the area you're in... And that in both cases, on world and off, is the issue. It's not the person wielding the power, it's the nature of that power itself. 

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12 hours ago, Calderis said:

The connection trick wouldn't work, in my opinion, even on Sel.

It absolutely isn't going to work off world because the entire reason for the location issue is that the Dor is bottled up in Sel's Cognitive Realm. If your on another world and increase your Connection, it won't change the fact that the Dor is light years away from you. 

On Sel itself, the Dor is the same everywhere, Connection to it isn't the problem. The language that the Dor is able to pour out into the Physical Realm through is changed.

Increasing your Connection to someplace else isn't going to change the area you're in... And that in both cases, on world and off, is the issue. It's not the person wielding the power, it's the nature of that power itself. 

If you were to store Connection, your Spirit would try to reach out and Connect to your current geographic location (Scadrian medallions work this way). This could give you knowledge of the local symbol system and potentially allow you to access your Dor based abilities using the local "language". This would obviously only apply on Sel given the aforementioned constraints.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If you were to store Connection, your Spirit would try to reach out and Connect to your current geographic location (Scadrian medallions work this way). This could give you knowledge of the local symbol system and potentially allow you to access your Dor based abilities using the local "language". This would obviously only apply on Sel given the aforementioned constraints.

Depends on the type of connection being utilized. What we saw in Mistborn is specifically "Blank" Connection, which we've been RAFO'd on how that's achieved. 

Regardless, I don't think Connection alone is going to fix the issue. I'll grant that considering what it can do with language, the written language may be possible to learn at the cost of the language that was known... But you may run into problems there with the Connection to the local area supplanting the Connection that gives you your powers in the first place. 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Depends on the type of connection being utilized. What we saw in Mistborn is specifically "Blank" Connection, which we've been RAFO'd on how that's achieved.

I forgot this was the Elantris board, sorry for the Mistborn stuff in my previous post.

Spoiler

Oh, I must have been misunderstanding that. I thought they were simply storing Connection to blank theirs. I'll have to reread that. As far as manipulating Connection goes, I think Elantrians might be the best we have seen other than the Bondsmiths. The thing that Kelsier stole from the Ire seems like some very advanced Connection magic.

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

But you may run into problems there with the Connection to the local area supplanting the Connection that gives you your powers in the first place. 

I considered this is well. I'd say that my idea is plausible, but definitely not a sure thing.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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