The Final Surges: Division, Cohesion, and Tension (and Unity?)

[Pagerunner]

Introduction

Thus far, we've gotten pretty good glimpses of seven of the ten Surges, by at least one of the Orders that uses them. There are some Order-specific applications (like Dalinar's Spiritual Adhesion), but for the most part we've seen a lot of similarities across orders – Jasnah and Shallan both Soulcast, Szeth's Gravitation looks much the same as it did when he had an Honorblade, and Dalinar and Kaladin can both stick things together using Adhesion. Illumination has been a little funky, but that's part of the ongoing mystery surrounding Renarin.

But there are three Surges that we have only seen, at most, glimpses of: Division, Cohesion, and Tension. There are legends of them in the books, we've seen the effects of their application, and Brandon has been a little forthcoming in WoBs, so we do have enough to piece together what these three Surges do. But the collective knowledge of the community is a little lax, so in this thread I’m going to collect all the information we have on these Surges, and then do some exploration and theorizing on them. Here’s my gameplan:

 

• ·       I’ll start off with a survey of sources about the Surge, both book references and WoBs. Then I’ll explain how I see the ‘real-life science’ would work to accomplish that. One section each for Division, Cohesion, and Tension.

• ·       The fourth section will explain a Tension/Cohesion continuity error. I’m having a chicken-or-the-egg problem trying to write this whole thing up, so you may get very confused with one of my Cohesion examples. I don’t want to break the flow of the explanation; you can jump down to the section called “Stormfather’s Error,” after the OB chapter 38 example, if it really bothers you.

• ·       In the fifth section, I’ll give a potential in-universe Rosharan explanation for these Surges, and why they’re guided by perception to behave the way they do.

• ·       In the last section, I’ll talk about Dalinar’s Unity abilities, and why I can’t figure out if they’re a Surge or not.

 

Division

Of the three, this is the one we’ve seen in action the most, although it can be a little hard to understand because it is never completely explained. The high-level overview: Division burns things.

The first hint is in the very first scene in WoK:

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The stones ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted-out sections where Surgebinders had fought.

…

Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

No other references in the first book. But we do get some more in the second. Jasnah references Division in WoR chapter 1:

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“Right now, you are but a promise,” Jasnah said. “A chrysalis with the potential for grandeur inside. When once humans and spren bonded, the results were women who danced in the skies and men who could destroy the stones with a touch.

Kaladin thinks of it in WoR chapter 41.

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Kaladin narrowed his eyes, watching that Stormlight rise. It was raw power. No. “Power” was the wrong term. It was a force, like the Surges that ruled the universe. They made fire burn, made rocks fall, made light glow. These wisps, they were the Surges reduced to some primal form.

A WoB from March 14, 2017.

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Questioner

The Division Surge: does it actually split atoms or does it split the bonds of molecules?

Brandon Sanderson

It splits the bonds of molecules, it does not split atoms.

Questioner

That would be completely overpowered.

Brandon Sanderson

I have done an atom splitting magic originally in Dragonsteel. And wooow it was overpowered. So really, this is fiddling... You'll see what it does when I use it, but we'll not be splitting atoms. We're not creating nuclear reactio... or fission, so.

source

We actually get it on-screen from a Dustbringer in OB chapter 107. “

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You’re as frozen as the lot of them,” Malata said. She started glowing, Stormlight rising from her skin. She reached forward, whipping off her glove – safehand no less – and pressing it against the table.

Marks spread out from the point of contact, little swirls of blackness etching themselves into the wood. The scent of burning filled the air, but the flames didn’t persist if she didn’t will them to.

The swirls and lines extended across the tabletop, a masterwork of engraving accomplished in moments. Malata blew off the ash. The Surge she used, Division, caused objects to degrade, burn, or turn to dust.

It also worked on people.

And again, from Yelig-Nar-powered Amaram in OB chapter 120.

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Amaram’s helm was cracked from the wicked, sharp amethysts growing out of the sides of his face. The eyes still glowed deeply within, and the stone ground somehow burned beneath his crystal-covered feet, leaving flaming tracks behind.

This Surge works by breaking molecular bonds. A quick chemistry rundown: you’ve got atoms, which are the fundamental building blocks of chemistry. Carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, all those good suckers. (You can divide atoms into with protons and electrons and neutrons, and divide those in turn to smaller particles, but that’s gonna be more the realm of physicists. And because Division doesn’t split atoms, it is a purely chemical Surge.) Atoms will form bonds with one another, attaching in arrangements simple or complex to form molecules. (Think of sticking balls of clay together with toothpicks.) The oxygen molecules we breathe are made of two oxygen atoms stuck together (or bonded); nitrogen molecules are similarly two nitrogen atoms. A water molecule is an oxygen molecule bonded to two hydrogen molecules (H₂O). Pure carbon doesn’t form molecules; it forms a big lattice of carbon atoms, each atom bonded to multiple other atoms.

Why do atoms form bonds? Because doing so releases energy. An atom on its own is like a ball, balanced on the top of a hill. (This is called a radical.) Rolling down the hill releases energy; the ball moves faster. That’s the same principle as creating bonds; two or more radicals combining into a molecule releases energy. And then it would take energy to remove the bonds; that’s like doing work to carry the ball back up the hill.

When you burn something, you break some weak bonds and create stronger bonds (with oxygen atoms). It takes a little energy to break a weak bond (called the activation energy), and a lot of energy is released over what you put in when you form a strong bond (called the heat of reaction). You carry a ball up a small hill, so you can roll it down the other side which has a much deeper valley. You release energy by burning things, even though it takes energy to get it started.

So, what Dustbringers do, is they break the bonds between atoms. They can burn things without making them hot first; which is how Malata caused the table to burn. To go back to the ball-and-hill analogy, using Division bores a tunnel through the hill, letting the ball roll straight from one spot to the other without having to be carried up the intermediary height.

If something crumbles to dust (one of the other stated applications of Division), it’s stuff that wouldn’t really burn well. You rearrange the atoms, it breaks up so you get a bunch of tiny pieces instead of a large whole. But the new bonds are the same energy as the old bonds, so no energy is released. It just crumbles.

But what about burning stone? I’ll just take the chemical composition of granite, for example, from Wikipedia:

SiO2	72.04% (silica)
Al2O3	14.42% (alumina)
K2O	4.12%
Na2O	3.69%
CaO	1.82%
FeO	1.68%
Fe2O3	1.22%
MgO	0.71%
TiO2	0.30%
P2O5	0.12%
MnO	0.05%

That’s already all got oxygen in it. So, if you break those bonds up, and then they reform, where’s the energy come from? Using Division doesn’t just bypass the activation energy; it can add the activation energy to the system.

The reverse for something “degrading.” Metal rusting releases energy; it just does it so slowly that there’s nothing noticeable. If you rust metal quickly, that’s called “oxidizing,” and my buddies used to call that “Thermite Thursdays.” So, if you’re going to make metal rust in an instant, Division needs to absorb the heat of reaction.

At the end of the day, using Division appears to encompass two sub-abilities, from a chemistry perspective. It breaks chemical bonds (changing the chemical composition of the target substance). And it also can add or remove energy from the system, depending on the intent of the Surgebinder; if they want it hot, they get it hot. If they want it room-temperature, the Surge balances out the heat that would be released. I don’t see an issue with these two abilities working in tandem; unlike some of the issues I had with steelpushing in another thread (where a single variable was needed to constrain many different scenarios), a Division user isn’t inherently limited to only a single kind of application. I think they could have metal rust or burn, depending on what they felt like at that moment.

 

Cohesion

Cohesion make things moldable, remove lattices and makes something more of a liquid.

The first legend is in WoK chapter 59.

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“According to stories that contradict one another. You’ve told me that Radiants could fly and walk on walls.”

Teft nodded. “They sure could. And make stone melt by looking at it. And move great distances in a single heartbeat. And command the sunlight. And– ”

The second legend is from Shallan, in WoR chapter 63. (I'm going to say Cohesion, because of the "command." Division is always touch; Cohesion can be at range.)

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Don’t be silly, she thought, tucking away her writing implements. The Heralds glow like the sun, wield the Honorblades, and speak with the voice of a thousand trumpets. They could cast down buildings with a command, force the storms to obey, and heal with a touch.

Another legend in WoR chapter 77. “

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She settled back, thinking about the powers described. Would the others be appearing, then? As she and Jasnah had? Men who could glide elegantly across the ground as if they weighed nothing, women who could melt stone with a touch.”

After WoR, there was a single Cohesion WoB. March 8, 2014.

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Brandon Sanderson

The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the "grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..." it's the weak atomic force.

It's, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that's a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.

Footnote: In the context of looking at the Radiant chart
source

 

In the third book, we actually begin to see it in action. OB chapter 38. (If you are not satisfied that this is an application of Cohesion, feel free to jump down to Section 4, and then come back here.)

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The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up to the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.

And again, this time another Surge from Amaram. OB chapter 120.

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As Kaladin came in for his attack, Amaram tapped his foot, and the stone ground became liquid for a moment. Kaladin stumbled, sinking down several inches, as if the rock were crem mud. It hardened in a moment, locking Kaladin’s boots in place.

This Surge is partially a step above the bonds within atoms. Molecules will also form bonds; weaker bonds, but bonds nonetheless, that can hold groups of molecules together. In the liquid state, water molecules are attracted enough to one another that they stick together loosely. When you cool them down, they’ll arrange themselves into a lattice structure, and you get solid ice. The bonds between hydrogen and oxygen within the molecule are unchanged; but the molecules are interacting differently.

But this Surge also overlaps a lot with Division, because not all substances have distinct molecules. It’s like I said with carbon up above; you have atoms bonded to atoms bonded to more atoms. So if you melt a diamond, you’re breaking atom-to-atom bonds. You have to be; otherwise it would remain solid.

Cohesion, therefore, is a little fuzzier in what it does from a nitty-gritty analysis point of view.

• ·       It will negate electromagnetic chemical bonding (sometimes intermolecular, sometimes molecular, depending on the substance).

• ·       It will absorb energy released by breaking those bonds.

• ·       It will apply a brand new attractive force between each and every molecule or atom affected. This is weaker than what was overcome, so the substance now behaves as a liquid.

• ·       It will apply a brand new set of forces to various molecules to move them around as desired.

• ·       When it is time to resolidify, the first three effects will all be simultaneously done in reverse, reverting the substance back to its original state with no release of energy.

It can’t just melt the stone, because that would require the molecules to be at a high temperature. There’s no temperature change; so it has to be a fundamental change in the nature of the chemical bonding, with associated energy balancing measures that I laid out in Division. There’s no way for Cohesion users to release energy, though, so they are more constrained in that particular sub-power.

Tension

The last Surge, and one that is much harder to find in the books. There are no mythological references, and no instances it is used (at least that I am confident in). But this has been a popular concept in WoBs, even with one before WoK came out. July 24, 2010.

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Shawn Speakerman

You brought up the magic system [of Way of Kings], and it's fairly unique. It's hard to wrap your head around it at first, but once you get into the story it actually makes a lot of sense. So, how long did it take you to develop that actual aspect of the novel?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the book. For this one, it's been going for a long time. This is one of the magic systems I've just been playing with forever, the idea...

Now, I describe the basics of the magic systems, and I'm worried that that will scare people off, because you don't need to know any of this stuff. The magic is fun, it should be just part of the story. But if you really wanna dig deeply, this one is based off the idea of fundamental forces. The [four] fundamental forces. Gravitation and electromagnetics and strong and weak nuclear forces. Those are the concepts that built this magic system, where I built an idea of a world with essentially ten fundamental forces, and built ten orders of Knights, each who learn to manipulate a type of these forces. So that is a growth over about ten years of work, to build this magic system with these ideas of "How can I make these fundamental forces manipulate them, what can it do? How can I make surface tension into a magic system? Or how can I make pressure into a magic system? Or gravitation that works in a magic system?"

But in other ones, it's just a quirky idea that occurs to me. Warbreaker, I spent only about four months building the magic system for that; an idea, you know, sympathetic magic of bringing things to life and using Breath as a metaphor for someone's life just kind of fell into place and worked together, and I did it. It depends on the book.

source

 

October 14, 2013.

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Questioner (paraphrased)

(Speaking of the division surge) Is that a re-framing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially. Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it's not really surface tension. It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth. I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Tensile strength?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's kind of like tensile strength. I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do. I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...". (looking back at the chart) So what can I give you that I didn't give her? Um, one of the orders is called Bondsmiths.

source

 

March 13, 2014.

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Questioner

Can you tell me anything about Tension or Cohesion?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't truly written these magics in yet, so they might change as I actually write the scenes. But they are... Tension is the ability to take something flexible and make it rigid. Which you think sounds simple, but there are so many cool things you could do with that.

source

 

March 24, 2017.

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Questioner

Another “physics” question: We have the Surges of Cohesion and Tension. And I'm really not sure what the difference is in that.

Brandon Sanderson

You'll see when I do this. It's a RAFO. And I play with them anyway a little differently in each order anyway. So what they do... I'll let you figure it out.

Questioner

It's just like when you enhance the tension of a water surface... (..)

Brandon Sanderson

Surface tension is what you're talking about. I'm gonna RAFO. But you're theorizing in correct directions.

source

 

So Tension makes things rigid. This cloth example is going to make us take another step up in chemistry; large molecules, with hundreds or thousands of atoms, that form huge chains. That’s what you get with organic molecules; and these molecules can move around. Think back to our clay-ball-and-toothpick model. The balls can rotate on the toothpicks; so if you build something big enough and unsupported enough, you can move it around like an action figure. That’s what cloth does; none of its chemical bonds are breaking when it moves, but there are rotations happening within the molecules.

Surface tension is a concept in fluids. Take water as an example. In the liquid state, water molecules like to be surrounded by other water molecules; they form those weak intermolecular bonds, which release a small amount of energy and are entropically favorited. So the fluid as a whole will minimize surface area, where water molecules are touching something that’s not water.

But that’s not quite what happens here. This is more like armor plating; additional tension on the surface of an object. Imagine a knee brace or a cast for every molecular and intermolecular bond along the surface of an object. Using the outer layer of molecules to form a shell, the inner layers are then forced in place, and you have yourself a solid object.

So that’s why I think tension is called surface tension – it acts on the surface of an object, applying an additional force to hold each atom or molecule stable in relation to the rest of the object. Unlike the other two Surges, there is nothing removed here, so there is no need for funky energy conservation loopholes.

Now, I said there were no confirmed instances of Tension in the books. I know that this is a Surge Dalinar has, and he does indeed use quite a bit of magic in Oathbringer. But I’m pretty confused on which Surge it is (if it even is a Surge), so I gave that its own section at the end of the thread to discuss in-depth.

But do I suspect we’ve seen this Surge applied by a modern fabrial in the half-Shard shields. They’re already solid, but the additional force applied to their surface makes them even stronger against normal attacks, and being Invested helps them out against Shardblades.

OB 100.

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“That gemstone,” Taravangian said, “Imprisons the kind of spren that gives things substance, the kind that holds the world together. We have entrapped in that shield something that, at another time, might have blessed a Knight Radiant.”

Some people believe that the spren they trapped was a spren the Radiant would bond, like a Stoneward spren. I hold to the idea of Surgespren; spren associated with each of the individual Surges. There are a couple of passages in Way of Kings that lead me down this path. The first is in WoK chapter 49.

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Syl walked along the wall of the chasm, about level with Kaladin’s head. Groundspren didn’t pull her downward as they did everything else. She walked with her hands clasped behind her back, her tiny, knee-length skirt fluttering in an intangible wind.

And the second is in WoK chapter 57.

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He felt a chill. The rock began to stream with luminescent vapors. When Kaladin pulled his hand away, the stone remained where it was, clinging to the side of the building.

Kaladin leaned close, squinting. He thought he could faintly make out tiny spren, dark blue and shaped like little splashes of ink, clustering around the place where the rock met the wall.

“Bindspren,” said Syl, walking up beside his head. She was still standing in the air.

“They’re holding the rock in place.”

“Maybe. Or maybe they’re attracted to what you’ve done in affixing the stone there.”

“That’s not how it works. Is it?”

“Do rotspren cause sickness,” Syl said idly, “or are they attracted to it?”

“Everyone knows they cause it.”

“And do windspren cause the wind? Rainspren cause the rain? Flamespren cause fire?”

He hesitated. No, they didn’t. Did they? “This is pointless. I need to find out how to get rid of this light, not study it.”

 

Bindspren for Adhesion, groundspren for Gravitation. And substancespren for tension. Whether they cause it, or are attracted to it, doesn’t much matter for the purpose of this argument; flamespren are used to produce heat, regardless of whether they cause it or not. So I think substancespren are used by this fabrial to apply Tension to the shields, making half-Shards.

Stormfather’s Error

I’m just presenting this as-is. I think it speaks for itself. From the OB signing tour:

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Pagerunner

I was at the Houston signing, and Brandon referred me to you on a few technical questions that I was asking him, since he was quite "brain dead."

First was what Surges the Bondsmiths have. Based on the ordering in the Ars Arcanum in WoR and OB, they should have Tension. But the application of the shared Surge we saw for both Stonewards and Bondsmiths in OB looks to line up more with Brandon's previous description of Cohesion from the Words of Radiance tour. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6061, although he did identify it as a Willshaper Surge there.) Brandon believed it was an error in the Ars Arcanum, and that Bondsmiths do have Cohesion, but he told me to confirm that with you.

Peter Ahlstrom

What power did you see in the book that Bondsmiths and Stonewards share?

Pagerunner

In Chapter 38:

The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up to the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped.

...

"And that Shardbearer I saw? A Herald?"

No. Merely a Stoneward. The Surge that changed the stone is the other you may learn, though it may serve you differently.

Which seems to align with how Brandon has previously described Cohesion in the past, as opposed to Tension.

I assume this Surge is what Dalinar used to repair the temple of Talenel in Chapter 59, but that's not actually essential to the point.

Peter Ahlstrom

I think this has to be an error in the text.

Pagerunner

Sorry, which do you think is the error? The order of Surges in the Ars Arcanum? Or the Stormfather's statement to Dalinar?

Peter Ahlstrom

The Stormfather's statement.

Peter Ahlstrom

I have verified with Brandon that what the Stormfather said here is wrong and will be corrected in the future.

source

 

Fundamental Forces

Now, you may find the chemistry explanations for these abilities a little underwhelming. They’re super fuzzy, tacking together a whole bunch of steps to get something that functions. To get what Brandon is shooting for, it's important to understand the distinction between real-life fundamental forces and Rosharan fundamental forces (what they call the Surges).

Go back to the elemental inspiration of Surges and Essences. Essences aren't distinct elements – Tallow, Pulp, and Sinew are all organic compounds, Spark is energy (since fire is just hot air, and air is otherwise covered under Zephyr), and Talus and Lucentia are going to be structural differences, not compositional differences. But when I put it like that, you inherently know that I’m just thinking too hard about it. These things seem different – and to the Rosharan understanding, that is enough to make it significant in the Realmatic sense. It is driven by perception, not by physics.

The same thing is going to be true for these final three Surges. They all operate using the electromagnetic force (just like Abrasion does) and the way molecules interact with one another or the way the components of a molecule interact. In real-life physics, there is a force that holds the atom together – the electromagnetic force that pulls protons and electrons together. That's the same force, generated by the same charges from the same subatomic particles, that is responsible for friction and for the lattice structures that many solids are composed out of.

But, just like with the Essences, to line that up with strict physics is looking too closely. Rosharans aren't physicists, and their perceptions will not align with that interpretation. Here's the way they look at it: they think there is a force on the surface of an object that makes a thing rigid like a solid (Tension), a force on all an object’s components that pulls them together and makes it flow like liquid (Cohesion), and a force that spreads things apart like a gas (Division). Whichever of those forces is strongest will determine how a substance behaves, and Surgebinders increase one of those 'forces' to override the natural behavior of a substance. The magic of Surgebinding, in turn, provides specific alterations to the electromagnetic force in order to match the common perception of Roshar.

This fuzzy chemistry happens with Soulcasting, too, as evidenced when Jasnah Soulcasts at Thaylen Field in OB chapter 120.

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She willed steps to Soulcast beneath her feet. Individual axi of air lined up and packed next to each other, then Soulcast into stone.

We can attempt to interpret “axi” as a local word for “atom” or “molecule,” but that doesn’t pass rigor. There’s no such thing as a molecule of air; air is a mixture of nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor, carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of a bunch of other things that I know because my company builds and operates air separation plants. Instead, an axi must a perception-driven way to interact with atoms and molecules, to conceptualize moving individual molecules even though the scale is unimaginably vast (one liter of air contains roughly 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules). Surges are also a perception-based way of performing complex interactions without needing to specifically consider all the steps required to accomplish a particular effect.

Unity

So, Dalinar has an ability. He Unites things. I see this power occur in three specific places:

OB 59.

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He sighed, resting his head on the broken temple.

Unite us. Please.

That was . . . a different voice. A hundred of them overlapping, making the same plea, so quiet he could barely hear them. He closed his eyes, trying to pick out the source of those voices.

Stone? Yes, he had a sensation of chunks of stone in pain. Dalinar started. He was hearing the spren of the temple itself. These temple walls had existed as a single unit for centuries. Now the pieces – cracked and ruined – hurt. They still viewed themselves as a beautiful set of carvings, not a ruined façade with fallen chunks scattered about. They longed to again be a single entity, unmarred.

The spren of the temple cried with many voices, like men weeping over their broken bodies on a battlefield.

Storms. Does everything I imagine have to be about destruction? About dying, broken bodies, smoke in the air and blood on the stones?

The warmth inside of him said that it did not.

He stood and turned, full of Stormlight, and seized the fallen stone that blocked the doorway. Straining, he lifted the block until he could slip in – squatting – and press his shoulders against it.

He took a deep breath, then heaved upward. Stone ground stone as he lifted the block toward the top of the doorway. He got it high enough, then positioned his hands immediately over his head. With a final push, shouting, he pressed with legs, back, and arms together, shoving the block upward with everything he had. Stormlight raged inside of him, and his joints popped – then healed -= as he inched the stone back into place above the doorway.

He could feel the temple urging him onward. It wanted so badly to be whole again. Dalinar drew in more Stormlight, as much as he could hold, draining every gemstone he’d brought.

Sweat streaming across his face, he got the block close enough that it felt right again. Power flooded through his arms into it, then seeped across the stones.

The carvings popped back together.

The stone lintel in his hands lifted and settled into place. Light filled the cracks in the stones and knit them back together, and gloryspren burst around Dalinar’s head.

When the glow faded, the front wall of the majestic temple – including the doorway and the cracked reliefs – had been restored. Dalinar faced it, shirtless and coated in sweat, feeling twenty years younger.

No, the man he’d been twenty years ago could never have done this.

Bondsmith.

…

They’d just gotten the hips of the statue settled back into place; Dalinar drained Stormlight from borrowed spheres, sealing the stone together.

…

“I can only fix inanimate things,” Dalinar said, wiping his hands on a rag tied at his waist, exhausted. Using this much Stormlight was a new experience for him, and quite draining.

 

Especially coming after the vision with the Stoneward, I understand why many people think this is Cohesion. That was my initial impression, too, before asking at that signing. But looking at it now, the stone isn’t melting. This is a Spiritual transformation; Dalinar’s not guiding the reliefs, but they are repaired nonetheless.

OB 109.

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Venli dropped to the ground again and continued crawling, but the stones of the floor separated, floating upward with her on them. Soon, she was scrambling precariously from one floating piece of stone to another. The Rhythm of Resolve still attuned, she dared to glance backward. The hole had widened, and the all-consuming light feated on the streams of refuse.

She turned away, desparate to do what she could to delay her own burning. Then . . . she stopped and looked back again. Dalinar Kholin stood on the balcony. And he was glowing.

Neshua Kadal. Radiant Knight.

Without meaning to, she attuned the Rhythm of Awe. Around Kholin, the balcony was stable. Boards trembled and quivered at his feet, but did not move into the sky. The balcony railing had ripped apart to either side of him, but where he held to it with a firm grip, it remained secure.

…

The calm, gentle light spread form Dalinar Kholin’s hand to the railing, then down into the floor. Boards and stones sank down from the air, reknitting. Venli’s current block of stone settled back into place. All through the city, buildings burst apart and zoomed upward, but the walls of this tower returned to their positions.

…

Above, the man in blue leaped into the chasm.

He fell beside the hole’s perimeter, and stretched one hand toward Venli. His other ground against the rock wall, hand scraping the stone. Something flashed around his arm. Lines of light, a framework that covered his body. His fingers didn’t bleed as they scraped the stone.

Around her, the rocks – the air itself – became more substantial. In defiance of the heat below, Venli slowed just enough that her fingers met those of Kholin.

 

Here, he’s holding together the very substance of the Stormfather’s vision as Odium attempts to destroy it. These aren’t real things, but Surges have functioned before in visions, so I guess it’s real enough that Dalinar can use his powers.

And lastly, in OB 119.

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UNITE THEM!

Dalinar thrust his left hand to the side, plunging it between realms, grabbing hold of the very fabric of existence. The world of minds, the realm of thought.

He thrust his right hand to the other side, touching something vast, something that wasn’t a place – it was all places in one. He’d seen this before, in the moment when Odium had let him glimpse the Spiritual Realm.

Today, he held it in his hand.

…

“What are you?” she whispered as he he stood with arms outstretched, holding to the lands of mind and spirit.

…

“I am Unity.”

He slammed both hands together.

And combined three realms into one.

 

Here’s the kicker, the climax of his abilities. This is not used on something physical; he’s grabbing the Realms.

One thing I note about all three of these passages is that Dalinar has to touch things. This is another point against Cohesion being intended; that Surge has been referred to in legends as operating with a “command” or a “look.” Adhesion, on the other hand, always spreads out from physical contact with the Radiant. Most of the time, the hands, although Kaladin has done it with his feet before.

One other thing I notice is that the warmth is present while he repairs the temple. This concept first appeared in the ending of Words of Radiance, a mysterious warmth and light that Dalinar felt, something the Stormfather knew nothing about. (Tying in with his mysterious Nohadon vision in Oathbringer, possibly.) Dalinar mentions this warmth several times in OB, and it stirs in him right before he says his third Oath and unites the Realms. And his last scene, when he is working on his book, he feels the warmth again. That makes me think his Unity power doesn’t come from his bond with the Stormfather at all, and has to do with Dalinar Ascending to the remnants of Honor. (I’m suspecting his mysterious Blade that he used to operate the Veden Oathgate was like an Honorblade; not a manifestation of a spren, but the raw essence of Honor’s power. As a refresher, OB chapter 16, the Stormfather confirms that Honorblades can operate Oathgates.)

Lastly, his power feels like a direct opposite of a pre-Shattering magic that was revealed in the Dragonsteel chapters on Brandon’s website as SA deleted scenes:

Quote

 

“And what these Tzai warriors do?” Jerick asked. “Is it the same thing?”

“No,” Frost corrected. “The Tzai go the other way. They use their Cognitive energy to affect the Spiritual realm—though they do it quite innocently.”

“Innocently?” Jerick asked.

“General Tzern is a brilliant man,” Frost explained. “But, like most brilliant men, he doesn’t accept the idea of magic or mysticism. When his men meditate and practice, they are focusing their Cognitive power, but they simply see it as a training technique. When a Tzai shatters his opponent’s sword with his bare hand, what he is really doing is gathering his Cognitive energy and using it to break the sword’s Spiritual aspect. Any alterations made to an object’s Spiritual side have immediate, and often violent, repercussions in the Physical world.

“Tzern’s warriors don’t see that side, however. They think their hand shatters the steel, when it really has little to do with the process.”

 

The Tzai warriors break the Spiritual, which has cascading effects on the Physical. Dalinar repairs the Spiritual, which has cascading effects on the Physical. This pre-Shattering magic appears end-neutral; the Tzai are doing direct Realmatic manipulations (which is also ascribed to the Sho Del and to the [REDACTED] magic of Jerick). At least to me, this feels very reminiscient of the sorts of things done by Shards or beings who are Ascending: the creation of the mistwraiths in Mistborn, the Returned of Warbreaker, or even the boons/curses of Nightwatcher or Cultivation. The interpretation that I’m growing fond of is that Dalinar was not Surgebinding in these scenes, he was tapping in to the greater power of Honor and using it to Unite things.

That all being said, I can’t help but notice the similarities to Adhesion listed above, and Tension’s metaphysical relationship to rebuilding the whole (seeing as it acts on the surface of an object.) And when Dalinar repairs the temple, he does think that it’s because he’s a Bondsmith, which would imply that Dalinar is not the first to have these sorts of powers. The extent he uses them is greater (like summoning the perpendicularity), but that other Bondsmiths may have been able to accomplish his feats in the Thaylen temple without Ascending. I can see an Adhesion/Tension interplay going on; take two things, use Adhesion to stick them together, use Tension to redefine the boundaries as a single object.

So, I’m not necessarily convinced either way. Putting the passages down on paper, his first two Unity scenes do seem much more like mundane Surgebinding than I had previously remembered. But the mysterious light, Dalinar’s Ascension, and “WE KILLED YOU” all make me think there’s something greater about Dalinar, something beyond what the Bondsmiths of the past were able to do. We’ll see if I can settle on something by the time Stormlight Four rolls around.

 

[I think I am here.]

This is really, really well put together. Good job!

[StormblessedSurvivor]

Does anyone know if Division, Cohesion and Tension can be ranged?

[TheEdgedancer]

Nicely done! However, Unity is not one of the 10 Surges. (Adhesion, Gravitation, Division, Abrasion, Progression, Illumination, Transformation, Transportation, Cohesion and Tension). If you want proof, just go to the Ars Arcanum of any Stormlight book,. I also believe that Brandon has confirmed there are only 10 Surges in multiple WoB's. Besides, 10 is na important number to Honor/Rosharans. 

Since Bondsmiths only have access to Tension and Adhesion and Unity is not a Surge, at least the first 2 instances you put under must be Tension, since they are not Adhesion (though either might have something to do with Adhesion? Pretty sure they don't but you never know.) 

As for what Unity is, if it's not a Surge, I believe Dalinar said it himself, though I can't pinpoint/remember the exact page and chapter, that those powers are a result of his own Bondsmith powers and drive interacting with the Stormfather, and basically the remnants/Splinters of Honor.

Edited October 16, 2018 by TheEdgedancer

[Helwar]

As said Unity is not a surge.

But I think you are not totally wrong.

After all wind runners have 3 lashings. 1 feels like is Gravitation, the second is Adhesion, and the third feels like a mix of both.

It could be that this specific power is a mix of Tension and Adhesion.

[Leuthie]

FYI, I think BS is using "axi" as a plural for axis, not as some local word for something else.  I'd quote your post, but I'm lazy

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

FYI, I think BS is using "axi" as a plural for axis, not as some local word for something else.  I'd quote your post, but I'm lazy

He's not. The term was used to describe individual packets of the air. Also, if we look at the Ars Arcanum, it describes Cohesion and Tension as Strong and Soft Axial Interconnections, which is presumably based on axi. If we take axi to be some Rosharan term for atoms/molecules or something similar, then those descriptions make sense. Cohesion manipulates the strong atomic interconnections, the crystal lattices, while tension manipulates the soft atomic interconnections, the weaker intermolecular forces.

[Calderis]

I think people saying that "Unity is not a surge" are missing Page's point. 

The "Unity" moment, and what Dalinar did, seem like they could be a product of his surges used in the extreme. 

It seemed fairly clear to me. 

[garlick]

I came away with "unity" power being something unrelated to the surges but using remanates of honors power.

[Helwar]

On 16/10/2018 at 6:27 PM, Calderis said:

I think people saying that "Unity is not a surge" are missing Page's point. 

The "Unity" moment, and what Dalinar did, seem like they could be a product of his surges used in the extreme. 

It seemed fairly clear to me. 

Oh I got it, really!

I mentioned that it isn't a surge because it got mixed in my head with all the other info about the other surges, but anyway I thought (and still think) it has merit on it's own as a different thing, either a new unrelated power or just the especial mix of surges. I've might not been clear enough in text but that's what I wanted to express

[Rainier]

Nice post, I have only two things to add.

First, I like the idea of differing uses for the surges that are associated with the three realms. So you can have physical cohesion, or cognitive cohesion, or spiritual cohesion. Some may be stronger than others in these aspects, and the different Radiant orders probably have some natural affinity with one or two specific combinations of their surges and the realms. This framework allows you to get into the nitty gritty of atoms and bonds and such, but it limits it to the surges working in the physical realm.

Second, it seems like there's a cycle at work, where each realm affects one realm and is affected by another. So Physical Realm affects Cognitive Realm but is changed by the Spiritual Realm. Your quote from Dragonsteel shows that the Cognitive Realm can make changes in the Spiritual Realm, and we know that those changes in the Spiritual Realm cause changes in the Physical Realm. So it seems like a one-way direction of effects dominates the interactions of the realms.

[Jofwu]

Division

On 10/1/2018 at 9:07 PM, Pagerunner said:

To go back to the ball-and-hill analogy, using Division bores a tunnel through the hill, letting the ball roll straight from one spot to the other without having to be carried up the intermediary height.

My thinking was that Investiture supplies the activation energy. Probably not something you meant to convey with the metaphor though.

Tension and Cohesion

On 10/1/2018 at 9:07 PM, Pagerunner said:

It can’t just melt the stone, because that would require the molecules to be at a high temperature. There’s no temperature change; so it has to be a fundamental change in the nature of the chemical bonding, with associated energy balancing measures that I laid out in Division. There’s no way for Cohesion users to release energy, though, so they are more constrained in that particular sub-power.

This is probably a difference in my technical background, but I want to just sweep the chemistry under the rug for these. With Division we're clearly supposed to be breaking chemical bonds, but the lack of energy being released here feels weird to me. Like you say, it would just be Division with more restrictions I guess?

So I wave goodbye to the chemistry, turn off the electron microscopes, and just say we're directly playing with the forces between atoms. Making it so that their bonds (as they are) are more or less stiff than "normal". (so we're getting into this kind of complicated stuff)

With Tension, from an engineer's perspective... we're playing with the stiffness tensor of a material. The Young's modulus (shear modulus, bulk modulus, etc.) We're changing the material's "spring constant" as used in Hooke's law. Steel normally has an elastic modulus of 29,000,000 psi, meaning if you want to stretch a 1 square inch rod by 1% then you need to apply 290,000 pounds of force. With Cohesion you could increase this, so that your steel beams sag less. Or you could increase it, so that you can easily bend and stretch it with your own hands.

And Cohesion would be pretty similar. Instead of just increasing/decreasing those variables, you're playing with the shape of the stress-strain curve. Ultimately what that lets you do is adjust the point of elastic or plastic failure. This would let you take something as strong as steel and deform it (permanently) with very little force. Or you could take a rubber band and make it ridiculously strong; it would still stretch like a rubber band (stiffness control is Tension), but it would stretch a ridiculous amount before failing.

All of that said... I'm skeptical that Brandon has these principles in his head, guiding how these Surges will work.  Time will tell whether we can squint our eyes and say these are close enough... or whether those powers are too unrealistic/inconsistent to say this about them.

Notably, I don't know how to reconcile this with Khriss's terminology of "Strong and Soft Axial Interconnections". I think Brandon has used similar terminology once or twice, though I skimmed the referenced WoBs again and didn't see it. Those terms are hard to speculate on because they don't have any readily apparent real-world meaning that I can see. And it wouldn't be the first time that I thought, "Khriss, are you sure this is the right term for this?" 

@Leuthie there's a comment from Peter that "axi" has a specific cosmere meaning, though it doesn't seem to be in Arcanum. I believe it's in the OB typo thread, because someone reported that the proper plural of "axis" is "axes", and Peter basically said, "Yes, but it's not that."

[Gasper]

On 10/16/2018 at 6:02 AM, TheEdgedancer said:

Nicely done! However, Unity is not one of the 10 Surges. (Adhesion, Gravitation, Division, Abrasion, Progression, Illumination, Transformation, Transportation, Cohesion and Tension). If you want proof, just go to the Ars Arcanum of any Stormlight book,. I also believe that Brandon has confirmed there are only 10 Surges in multiple WoB's. Besides, 10 is na important number to Honor/Rosharans. 

Since Bondsmiths only have access to Tension and Adhesion and Unity is not a Surge, at least the first 2 instances you put under must be Tension, since they are not Adhesion (though either might have something to do with Adhesion? Pretty sure they don't but you never know.) 

As for what Unity is, if it's not a Surge, I believe Dalinar said it himself, though I can't pinpoint/remember the exact page and chapter, that those powers are a result of his own Bondsmith powers and drive interacting with the Stormfather, and basically the remnants/Splinters of Honor.

We do know that there are "god" surges (like a "god" metal in the metallic arts) that we have not seen yet. Unity could be the "god" surge tied to Honor.

[Calderis]

34 minutes ago, Gasper said:

We do know that there are "god" surges (like a "god" metal in the metallic arts) that we have not seen yet. Unity could be the "god" surge tied to Honor.

This... I disagree with. 

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Are there Surges that could be considered as God Surges, like the God metals on Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Progression and Adhesion, perhaps?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, but they could be considered as such.

Footnote: Brandon has since clarified that what he actually said was "it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar."
source

The Footnote in that WoB leads to this one. 

Quote

Argent

The "God Surges" you mentioned recently, are they a part of the Way of Kings frontsheet?

Brandon Sanderson

All I said regarding this was to tell a fan that it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar. However, these are not a codified part of the magic system.

Footnote: Argent is referring to an exchange from When Worlds Collide earlier in the month.
source

So an argument could be made that certain of the surges are analogous to the god metals... But as far as we've been told, there are not more than 10 surges. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Calderis

[Pagerunner]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:17 PM, StormblessedSurvivor said:

Does anyone know if Division, Cohesion and Tension can be ranged?

I've included everything we know above, so it looks to me like Division has to be touch and Cohesion can be ranged. All of the potential Tension usages are tough, as well. But since we've seen so little of these three in use, I can believe that a skilled Surgebinder could potentially learn to do these at distances. Jasnah can Soulcast at a distance, after all, when everyone else we've seen has to touch things.

On 10/16/2018 at 7:02 AM, TheEdgedancer said:

Nicely done! However, Unity is not one of the 10 Surges. (Adhesion, Gravitation, Division, Abrasion, Progression, Illumination, Transformation, Transportation, Cohesion and Tension). If you want proof, just go to the Ars Arcanum of any Stormlight book,. I also believe that Brandon has confirmed there are only 10 Surges in multiple WoB's. Besides, 10 is na important number to Honor/Rosharans. 

Since Bondsmiths only have access to Tension and Adhesion and Unity is not a Surge, at least the first 2 instances you put under must be Tension, since they are not Adhesion (though either might have something to do with Adhesion? Pretty sure they don't but you never know.) 

As for what Unity is, if it's not a Surge, I believe Dalinar said it himself, though I can't pinpoint/remember the exact page and chapter, that those powers are a result of his own Bondsmith powers and drive interacting with the Stormfather, and basically the remnants/Splinters of Honor.

I think the rest of the discussion has covered this well, but I'll just restate my conclusions on Unity, since I may not have been clear enough. I see it as one of two things:

• An advanced application of either Tension, Adhesion, or the two used in concert.
• A direct Realmatic effect, outside of the Invested Art of Surgebinding, that Dalinar performs during his Ascension.

That assumes that all three Unity instances I described are, in fact, applications of the same ability. The Thaylen Field is explicitly more than a Bondsmith could do, which is what set me down the path of the second conclusion, but it very well could have been based on Bondsmith Surgebinding.

On 10/17/2018 at 1:32 PM, Rainier said:

Nice post, I have only two things to add.

First, I like the idea of differing uses for the surges that are associated with the three realms. So you can have physical cohesion, or cognitive cohesion, or spiritual cohesion. Some may be stronger than others in these aspects, and the different Radiant orders probably have some natural affinity with one or two specific combinations of their surges and the realms. This framework allows you to get into the nitty gritty of atoms and bonds and such, but it limits it to the surges working in the physical realm.

Second, it seems like there's a cycle at work, where each realm affects one realm and is affected by another. So Physical Realm affects Cognitive Realm but is changed by the Spiritual Realm. Your quote from Dragonsteel shows that the Cognitive Realm can make changes in the Spiritual Realm, and we know that those changes in the Spiritual Realm cause changes in the Physical Realm. So it seems like a one-way direction of effects dominates the interactions of the realms.

Good points. With regards to Surges in different Realms, I've never been a huge fan of that idea (even though we do have a canonicial Spiritual Adhesion, so my objections have been sort of hamstrung). I will be waiting to see if we get any other Spiritual or Cognitive applications Surges, especially Transportation (which is an expliclty Realmatic Surge, moving things between Realms. A small part of me hopes that Spiritual Adhesion is something like slatrification, a power that was added for narrative concerns instead of a natural outgrowth of the magic system. (Bondsmiths need to be able to talk to people all over the world, so Brandon worked up a Connection application for them.) But it's not a hill I'll die on, at least until seeing if we actually get any other Spiritual or Cognitive Surges.

For the second, I'm not so sure it's always one-way. Soulcasting appears to enact a Cognitive change to accomplish a Physical transformation. And even Dalinar's Spiritual Adhesion could be a Spiritual change that affects his Cognitive self (there is no Physical change when he uses it). But an interesting observation, nonetheless.

On 10/17/2018 at 2:59 PM, Jofwu said:

Division

My thinking was that Investiture supplies the activation energy. Probably not something you meant to convey with the metaphor though.

I'm actually going for both. This specific example, I'm seeing it as a catalyst (which, per the technical definition, creates a different reaction mechanism with a lower activation energy), since there are times when Division doesn't release energy. But making stone burn does require adding the activation energy. It just depends on what goals the Surgebinder has in mind.

On 10/17/2018 at 2:59 PM, Jofwu said:

Tension and Cohesion

This is probably a difference in my technical background, but I want to just sweep the chemistry under the rug for these. With Division we're clearly supposed to be breaking chemical bonds, but the lack of energy being released here feels weird to me. Like you say, it would just be Division with more restrictions I guess?

So I wave goodbye to the chemistry, turn off the electron microscopes, and just say we're directly playing with the forces between atoms. Making it so that their bonds (as they are) are more or less stiff than "normal". (so we're getting into this kind of complicated stuff)

With Tension, from an engineer's perspective... we're playing with the stiffness tensor of a material. The Young's modulus (shear modulus, bulk modulus, etc.) We're changing the material's "spring constant" as used in Hooke's law. Steel normally has an elastic modulus of 29,000,000 psi, meaning if you want to stretch a 1 square inch rod by 1% then you need to apply 290,000 pounds of force. With Cohesion you could increase this, so that your steel beams sag less. Or you could increase it, so that you can easily bend and stretch it with your own hands.

And Cohesion would be pretty similar. Instead of just increasing/decreasing those variables, you're playing with the shape of the stress-strain curve. Ultimately what that lets you do is adjust the point of elastic or plastic failure. This would let you take something as strong as steel and deform it (permanently) with very little force. Or you could take a rubber band and make it ridiculously strong; it would still stretch like a rubber band (stiffness control is Tension), but it would stretch a ridiculous amount before failing.

All of that said... I'm skeptical that Brandon has these principles in his head, guiding how these Surges will work.  Time will tell whether we can squint our eyes and say these are close enough... or whether those powers are too unrealistic/inconsistent to say this about them.

Notably, I don't know how to reconcile this with Khriss's terminology of "Strong and Soft Axial Interconnections". I think Brandon has used similar terminology once or twice, though I skimmed the referenced WoBs again and didn't see it. Those terms are hard to speculate on because they don't have any readily apparent real-world meaning that I can see. And it wouldn't be the first time that I thought, "Khriss, are you sure this is the right term for this?" 

I'm not sure there's any disagreement between us here. Spring constants and stress/strain curves are empirically determined; you'll do a bunch of experiments and plot the data out to determine the properties of a substance. But what determines them? Why are they different from substance to substance? The way the atoms and molecules of that substance interact with one another. At a higher level, with an application-based perspective, you're quantifying that using meaningful parameters. I'm looking at theory, what it would take to accomplish those changes.

And I agree that these aren't first principles of the magic. That's the point of my fifth section; starting with what the fuzzy Rosharan pseudoscience says, what would real-life physics need to actually do to accomplish that? They are super inconsistent, and I've had to jump through a bunch of hoops to inscribe the intent of the Surgebinder to these applications. But I think that on its own is important to understand. If you're trying to understand what these Surges do, there's not going to be a "simple" Physics answer, the way you might get with Steelpushing. It'll be driven by perception, what the Rosharans believe (and therefore what the author wants to write) about the magic doing.

On 10/17/2018 at 5:49 PM, Gasper said:

We do know that there are "god" surges (like a "god" metal in the metallic arts) that we have not seen yet. Unity could be the "god" surge tied to Honor.

That's an interesting thought. I don't interpret the god surge WoBs to mean that; I think that the Rosharans think some Surges are more connected to Honor (like Tension or Adhesion) and others are more like Cultivation (like Progression). But I also don't think additional god surges have been conclusively disproven either; or even that the Rosharans would call all magic a Surge, so they'd call a direct Realmatic application of an Ascended individual a "god surge." So there may indeed be a connection there.

[StormblessedSurvivor]

We know that Jasnah, as an Elsecaller, has access to Transportation. This might explain why she can do ranged Soulcasting, but it could also just be that she's searching for the minds of the objects in the Cognitive Realm. But if Transportation does allow the Surgebinder's other Surge to be ranged, then this could explain why Wilshapers are called Willshapers-they use Transportation to make their Cohesion ranged, so it appears like they're shaping objects with their will.

[Stanchion]

On the topic of surges in the cognitive realm, could what Shallan does with her paintings for people to change them be a form of spiritual Transformation or spirtual Lightweaving?

[ReaderAt2046]

 

One thing worth noting WRT the Unity powers is that this is the first time the Stormfather has empowered a Bondsmith since Honor's splintering, and there have been hints that with Tanavast dead, a lot of Honor's power has been inherited by the Stormfather. So it's possible that the Unity surgebindings are actually Bondsmith surgebindings (or at least Stormfather-Bondsmith surgebindings, it's possible that each of the three Bondsmiths interprets their power differently), but much stronger (with both more raw power and the ability to work on a more profound level), because Honor's power is now being accessed directly, instead of secondhand through the Stormfather.

[Ciridae]

I have a small question regarding the differences between using Cohesion and Division on people. 

There is this:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of the Stormlight Archive the way that I did is I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers, I mean, everybody has two, but this ability you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of, like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch on that order.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2 [PENDING REVIEW]

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No. That's the general, the more invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things. Even a small amount of extra investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

source

And then we have this from OB chapter 107:

Quote

"The Surge she used, Division, caused objects to degrade, burn, or turn into dust. 

It also worked on people." 

So the way I understand it both Cohesion and Division work by directly affecting the molecules of an item instead of its representations in the Cognitive (unlike Soucasting for example). So why would one work on living flesh when the other does not? 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Ciridae

[ScavellTane]

Division severs bonds, Cohesion alters the structure of a bond and Tension alters the strength of a bond.

Edited January 16, 2019 by ScavellTane

[Ciridae]

1 hour ago, ScavellTane said:

Division severs bonds, Cohesion alters the structure of a bond and Tension alters the strength of a bond.

Right, but shouldn't all of them either be able or unable to affect living flesh? I don't see why one can turn you to dust but the other can't turn you to goo if they all affect molecular bonds. 

[ScavellTane]

Rosharan dont have knowledge of molecular biology? Or perhaps they only work on dead flesh.

Edited January 16, 2019 by ScavellTane

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Rosharan dont have knowledge of molecular biology? Or perhaps they only work on dead flesh.

They sorta do and don't at the same time? WoB below

 

Questioner
What is axial interconnection?

Brandon Sanderson
You'll find out <a little bit> eventually. So here's a RAFO. Axi is the Cosmere term for *inaudible* <atoms>. They didn't have a guy named <atom>. They have a different word for it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're referencing a real-world science when they talk about them.

[Ciridae]

The implication from that scene is that Division is dangerous to people. Malata just burned a table in that scene and Mr T thinks to himself that she could do the same to people. I dont think he'd have the same reaction if it only worked on corpses. 

And I don't think it can be explained by lack of scientific understanding of atoms and molecules. Brandon says the issue for Cohesion is that the surge can't be used on anything invested, saying that human innate Investiture is enough to stop it from working. 

The only explanation I can think of is that Division uses a LOT more investiture than Cohesion.

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

It's like if a coin shot tried to push a filled metal mind, he'd have difficulty overcoming the investiture interference. But if you duralumin push on the metal mind you put a lot more power into the push and could potentially overcome the interference. 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Ciridae

[ScavellTane]

Perhaps the difference is because she has access to Abrasion. Basically peeling off flesh layer by layer.

Edited January 17, 2019 by ScavellTane