Ripheus23

A spherical Aon

8 posts in this topic

OK, well, Sel's probably not a perfect sphere, or I would be surprised if it was, or whatever. But supposing it is something globular, do you think it's possible for there to be an Aon, or even a set of Aons (or maybe "Selglyphs" for lack of a better general term---is there a canon/WoB general term for this?), based on the shape of the entire planet? I imagine it would be hard to "draw," so to speak, or to grow bones in this shape, or whatever, but still...

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So basically is there a Selish magic that spans the whole planet. A Rosetta Stone for Selish magic, maybe? Sounds to me like a secret that would be kept hidden with an important artifact. Maybe an artifact named for an object that constantly faces Sel and studies it's geography. A Moon Scepter perhaps?

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Honestly, I don't believe so. The Dor is regionalized in a way that each magic system fails outside it's area because the local coding language changes. That's the point of the Moon Scepter as a Rosetta Stone. It doesn't allow you to use the magics anywhere in itself, it's a key to translation. 

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Viper (paraphrased)

Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.

Viper (paraphrased)

So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's correct.

Viper (paraphrased)

Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's very interesting, isn't it?

source

In order to have something the was all of Sel, it would either need to be a separate magic (sub)system, or somehow incoporporate all of them?

I think the split in languages by region most likely just undermines it though. 

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7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Honestly, I don't believe so. The Dor is regionalized in a way that each magic system fails outside it's area because the local coding language changes. That's the point of the Moon Scepter as a Rosetta Stone. It doesn't allow you to use the magics anywhere in itself, it's a key to translation. 

In order to have something the was all of Sel, it would either need to be a separate magic (sub)system, or somehow incoporporate all of them?

I think the split in languages by region most likely just undermines it though. 

Does the moon scepter allow for the Maipon's dor to power Aons  or does the moon scepter allow someone to use Maipon's dor to power Maipon's symbols in a similar way to how the Aondor powers Aons.

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Just now, MountainKing said:

Does the moon scepter allow for the Maipon's dor to power Aons  or does the moon scepter allow someone to use Maipon's dor to power Maipon's symbols in a similar way to how the Aondor powers Aons.

The Dor is the same everywhere. 

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Brightlord Maelstrom [PENDING REVIEW]

If you were to somehow use a receptacle to gather some part of the Dor, say there was a way of doing that. And you were to do one on both extremes of the planet. Would it be the same thing?

...Say, you have a container than can contain part of this plasma? ...Theoretically? You do that, taking one part of the planet, say Elantris, seal it up. And then you were to take another one, and fill it up in MaiPon and compare them, would it be the same Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it would.

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This is speculation, because that "Rosetta Stone" wob is the clearest we've got on it, but a Rosetta Stone is a specific thing. 

It would allow for you to translate an Aon into the Maipon language so that you could draw an Aon that works there. The Aon would be different.

In order to use any of Sel's magics everywhere on the globe, you would have to learn the regional language of every area and be able to draw the symbol you need in whatever area you're in. The Dor doesn't change. The language it functions through, the land itself, does. 

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The general idea seems to he that it explains, "Here's how to change Aons so that they are no longer region locked to Arelon." Frankly though, I like the idea of the Moon Scepter being a simplified globe of Sel. I know people believe that its the Dominion part of the Dor that causes the region locking, though I'm not sure if that's confirmed. Based on how important intent is in the Cosmere, I wouldn't be surprised part of unlocking use of all Selish magic is for a person to stop thinking of them selves as a citizen of their country, and start thinking of themselves as a Selian. In which case, the other part of unregion-locking the magic would be to expand the symbols from being based on a region to merely a part of the whole of Sel.

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@HSuperLee the reason I don't think it actually works that way has two parts.

I think think that the Shapes are determined by the land itself, not purely because of national borders, but because it's defined by the mind of the land itself. As Khriss says in the Sel Essay 

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Because the Cognitive Realm has distinct locations (unlike the Spiritual Realm, where most forms of Investiture reside), magic on Sel is very dependent upon physical position. In addition, the rules of perception and intent are greatly magnified on Sel, to the point that language—or similar functions—directly shapes the magic as it is pulled from the Cognitive Realm and put to use.
This overlap between language, location, and magic on the planet has become so integral to the system that subtle changes in one can have profound effects on how the Dor is accessed. Indeed, I believe that the very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness, in a way unseen on other planets in the cosmere. I do not know how this happened, or what the ramifications will be.

And while she does say that perception and intent are magnified by this state of affairs, it Ati doesn't alter the fact that the land and its shape are more important than what people think and expect. 

The second part is basically just supporting the first. And that is that Aons are not shaped by the language spoken. The written language didn't shape the meanings of the Aons. The Aons were discovered.

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

source

The relevant portion

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Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

There is also the fact that the creation of Elantris is lost to history. Elantris as it stands now was discovered empty. People moved into Arelon and the city, and in a couple of generations, people began being taken by the Shaod. 

In that interval between the period of it's builders, and the new discoverers, the Aons did not change through a new people and a fresh culture with no link to the previous. 

Again Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning

Aon Ehe represents the primal force of Fire. A complex Aon with only basic symmetry, its form has often been likened to wisps of tickling fire burning out from a central coal.

While the many poets in history seem to have preferred the overall symmetry of an Aon like Aon Omi or Aon Rao, not a few preferred Aon Ehe for its distinctive look and feel. (Much like Aon Shao, this Aon breaks with traditional Aon form in appearance.) For this reason, and because of the destructive yet vital power of fire, the Poet Lenehe of the fifth century named Aon Ehe “The most inspiring of all Aons, a symbol for those with a creative heart and an unhindered mind.”

Recently, this Aon–easily recognizable, even to the uneducated–has become synonymous with ‘Danger,’ and is used as a warning. In many cases, in fact, it is printed on warnings which have nothing at all to do with fire. One might find it upon an unsteady bridge or a wood hiding dangerous wolves just as easily as one might find it referencing actual flames.

History And Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe’s origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe–the first of Raoshem’s line to be chosen as an Elantrian–claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

Other uses of Ehe are plentiful. It is one of the primal elements, and is often used in scientific writings. It is a ward and warning against danger. It is used on signs in conjunction with other Aons to mean warm food or warm beds available. Some artists and poets choose it as their symbol, both to hint at the dangerous nature of artistry and to speak of the passion of artistry.

Naming and Usage in ELANTRIS

Aon Ehe is often mispronounced as “E-hay.” Though scholars of Aonic insist that the proper term, “E-Hee” is more accurate, the former is slowly being acknowledged as an acceptable pronunciation as well. It is infrequently used in names during modern days, as the meaning ‘Danger’ is seen as unfavorable. However, historically, it was a favorite Aon for poets and artists (who often took new names for themselves when entering into their maturity as an artist, a tradition by which they removed themselves from their old body of work and indicated that they were beginning anew.)

Some famous examples of names from Aon Ehe include the poet Ehen, the artist Ehelan, and Mehen the philosopher.

AonDor

Aon Ehe is one of the most spectacular, useful, and awe inspiring of base Aons when used by an Elantrian. There are many Aons which have destructive or powerful effects, but none are as strong without modification as Aon Ehe.

Drawn simply, the Aon creates a column of flame, acting as a direct and primal conduit to the Dor itself. The diameter of the column depends on the size of the Aon drawn, and the direction the column is launched depends on the direction the Aon is facing. Often, this Aon is drawn on the floor so that a column of pure fire can be launched up into the air. The column is brief–only lasting a few seconds–but incredibly powerful.

With some enhancement modifiers, this Aon can be made to last longer. The pre-Reod AonDor scholars crafted lamps with flames that continued to burn no matter which way they were turned. They would even continue to burn beneath water. This Aon can be used in warfare, if necessary, though Aon Daa is generally a better weapon.

As a modifier, Aon Ehe can be used to create a ward that sets off other Aon chains. It provides one of the more useful tools in an AonDor practitioner’s repertoire, though the difficulty in drawing it can make it difficult to use for the less talented.

source

And of course, after writing all of this, that WoB contains a paragraph that basically makes my entire point... 

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All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered.

 

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I'm thinking that a spherical Selglyph would correspond to a Selish magic different from the local variations. A planetary magic system. Maybe this is implicated in the Moon Scepter but I don't think it would be (as of yet) a system made up of all the spells for the regional systems.

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