Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Unlicensed Hemalurgist

Cadmium/Bedalloy in the Final Empire

17 posts in this topic

So one thing I've been thinking about recently is whether it would be possible to refine cadmium and bendalloy using Final Empire levels of technology. Chromium wouldn't be possible-- apparently it requires an electric arc furnace to extract pure chromium from the ore-- which means nicrosil would also be impossible. But cadmium is usually found as a byproduct of zinc refining, which the FE obviously must have had. And bendalloy (Wood's metal in our world) is an alloy of cadmium and several very common metals: lead, tin and bismuth. Bismuth was known as early as the late-1600s, leading me to believe that the slightly-more-advanced-than-expected metallurgy of the FE could have known about and refined it.

Knowledge of these metals would almost certainly be suppressed by TLR and the Steel Ministry, and the fear of heavy metal poisoning through recklessly experimenting with different percentages would have discouraged anyone but an extremely eccentric (and wealthy) Mistborn with an absolute ton of aluminum from messing with it. But I think it might have at least been possible to produce back then. 

Am I missing something?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think that Chromium, while difficult, was fully possible in The Final Empire as the metal itself was discovered here on Earth in 1797

So I would agree that Cadmium was also possible

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I still think that Chromium, while difficult, was fully possible in The Final Empire as the metal itself was discovered here on Earth in 1797

I was under the impression that actually refining chromium in any usable quantities required electricity, though I could be wrong. 

I think it's more likely than not that Cadmium is possible, and if Cadmium is possible then you have all the ingredients for making Bendalloy. It's totally possible IMO that both metals were periodically re-discovered and re-suppressed over the centuries during the Final Empire.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While electricity is needed for refining it in large quantities and be cost effective, I'm personally of the opinion that TLR had the Steel Ministry refine small amounts of both chromium and cadmium over his 1000 year reign for his own personal use.

Edited by StanLemon
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

While electricity is needed for refining it in large quantities and be cost effective, I'm personally of the opinion that TLR had the Steel Ministry refine small amounts of both chromium and cadmium over his 1000 year reign for his own personal use.

It's not impossible... but why did he have any reason for doing that ? It's just a potential menace without a truly benefit. The only instances where the TLR would advantage of using Cadmius is on himself to spare Atium... and he didn't.

Chromium is still more unlikely, as the books shown evidences of Mistborn-based Inquisitors to not having Chromium avaliable.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, didn't Preservation "hack" the Allomantic table to make atium Mistings possible by removing cadmium based Mistings or something? And Sazed restored it after his Ascension because atium was no longer "a thing"? (Of course, using atium would still "work" for Demoux, Marsh, or any Mistborn who might come across any nuggets, but no new Seers would be born?)

Edited by robardin
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/27/2018 at 4:36 PM, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Knowledge of these metals would almost certainly be suppressed by TLR and the Steel Ministry, and the fear of heavy metal poisoning through recklessly experimenting with different percentages would have discouraged anyone but an extremely eccentric (and wealthy) Mistborn with an absolute ton of aluminum from messing with it. But I think it might have at least been possible to produce back then. 

I feel like they may have been around (in small quantities), but like you said, the fear of metal poisoning would have discouraged them from trying. Kelsier even told Vin that bad alloys could at best give you a stomach issue and at worst kill you. And that was Kelsier, a pretty insane man himself. If TLR had known about them it's likely he didn't take advantage of Cadmium as to keep the knowledge from the noblemen. He was wary enough of them as it was - he wouldn't want them to know even more power. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2018 at 0:29 AM, Yata said:

It's not impossible... but why did he have any reason for doing that ? It's just a potential menace without a truly benefit. The only instances where the TLR would advantage of using Cadmius is on himself to spare Atium... and he didn't.

Chromium is still more unlikely, as the books shown evidences of Mistborn-based Inquisitors to not having Chromium avaliable.

Well, we still don't know how he was so overwhelmingly powerful as a Mistborn. Sure he rebuilt himself in the WoA as a powerful Mistborn but as far as we know, F-nicrosil is needed for that much power.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Well, we still don't know how he was so overwhelmingly powerful as a Mistborn. Sure he rebuilt himself in the WoA as a powerful Mistborn but as far as we know, F-nicrosil is needed for that much power.

We have no idea what the upper bounds of allomantic strength are. Saying that F-nicrosil is necessary is an assumption.

The only thing that can be said between using the bands and The Lord Ruler, is that Wax/Marasi with the bands were actually stronger than he was because their bodies were leaking mist. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed we don't know if F-Nicrosil is needed.

If that level of power is possible (and F-Nicrosil shows this) in theory you could obtain it inany way. Rebuilding your spirit is not an impossible option, as also keep stacking spikes (stupid example, imagine an Inquisitor build only mostly with A-steel spikes).

By the way, among the metals unknown in era 1, Niscosil is the One we could be sure it can't be produced without advanced tech as it requires other materials impossible to craft with their tech.

There is also the already discussed arguments of no new metal be discovered on TLR, in his palace or anywhere else.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Yata said:

Indeed we don't know if F-Nicrosil is needed.

If that level of power is possible (and F-Nicrosil shows this) in theory you could obtain it inany way. Rebuilding your spirit is not an impossible option, as also keep stacking spikes (stupid example, imagine an Inquisitor build only mostly with A-steel spikes).

By the way, among the metals unknown in era 1, Niscosil is the One we could be sure it can't be produced without advanced tech as it requires other materials impossible to craft with their tech.

There is also the already discussed arguments of no new metal be discovered on TLR, in his palace or anywhere else.

 

The Final Empire very much had the technology to make Nicrosil as their technology was mostly analogous to 1700s or 1800s pre electricity and while difficult it was fully possible to make refine Chromium and make it into Nicrosil. 

While yes we don't know if F-Nicrosil is needed it is still the most likely answer based on what we do know. Raw Investiture is the only part of the Bands that we know of that could give Wax the power boost to his Allomancy that we see in the book.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

While yes we don't know if F-Nicrosil is needed it is still the most likely answer based on what we do know. Raw Investiture is the only part of the Bands that we know of that could give Wax the power boost to his Allomancy that we see in the book.

Yes that is how Wax reached those levels. 

Again, TLR never leaks mist like we see with Nicrosil. We don't know at what point that starts or at what point any kind of boost was necessary. 

The soothing we see from TLR are on par with Elend using duralumin. He didn't seem to need any boost for this. The same with pushing on the metals in Vin's stomach. 

At what point did we see anything from Rashek that would have required a power boost?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@StanLemon

In real world, silicon one of the Nicrosil's component were discovered in the 1907. Of course this isn't a prove but you realize how far was to make it.

Then the problem remains if those metals were around, why nobody seemed to use them or find them anywhere? Much more in the stomach or the person of the supposed users.?

To be completely honest, the TLR's "rebuilding himself with the Well" invalidated the need of a reverse compounding for his feats.

We were truly searching for a mechanism because we compared him to elend in the past, but that comparison has no sense as the TLR was far stronger to start with

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chromium was first refined in a pure form in 1797 by heating the oxide ore in a charcoal oven; Electricity made it easier and faster only, not unlike aluminum. Silicon (part of Nicrosil) was first refined in its pure form in 1823, not 1907.

A scientific awareness of Heavy Metal Poisoning came about around the same time for us (mid 19th century), primarily due to fact that they were actually experimenting with these metals.  For Scadrial Im betting that a fear of Heavy Metal poisoning couldnt be a factor in keeping them from experimenting, said fear would have emerged as a result of that experimentation. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yes that is how Wax reached those levels. 

Again, TLR never leaks mist like we see with Nicrosil. We don't know at what point that starts or at what point any kind of boost was necessary. 

The soothing we see from TLR are on par with Elend using duralumin. He didn't seem to need any boost for this. The same with pushing on the metals in Vin's stomach. 

At what point did we see anything from Rashek that would have required a power boost?

I honestly can't answer that with any certainty though I can guess. First of all being the most powerful mistborn who ever lived already, TLR wouldn't need need to use as much Investiture to get up to those levels and secondly he likely would have much more experience properly utilizing that Investiture than Wax's one time.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After centuries of being Mistborn, one would think TLR would have spent the relatively little time necessary to attain savant-hood in every metal. If Spook can up his powers to the level he did in a year or two, how much more so TLR in a thousand years (especially given his Sliver status)? I imagine nicrosil would not have been useful enough to him to balance the risk of introducing that into the Empire.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2018 at 3:23 PM, StanLemon said:

I honestly can't answer that with any certainty though I can guess. First of all being the most powerful mistborn who ever lived already, TLR wouldn't need need to use as much Investiture to get up to those levels and secondly he likely would have much more experience properly utilizing that Investiture than Wax's one time.

I dont think that's how it works with Mistborn, they get more powerful by virtue of having a larger conduit to Preservation's Investiture as their energy Source.  They are more powerful because they can channel more Investiture, not because they use the Investiture more Efficiently (which is more in the realm of the skill-based talents and low-grade savantism effects)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.