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Archer

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If you get to negative 10 you die, and every turn that the other character isn't knocked out your knocked out character loses 1. And you can attack them while they are down to kill them. I've requested that they do, because Atticus will be mentally scarred if he doesn't. They literally broke him.

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25 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Also, @Archer don’t medics heal you at the end of battles in the CoC?

Normally, yes. The fight would end as soon as you die, then within seconds healers would descend upon the field and heal/uncurse/reconstruct you. But this is a 2v2 battle. Theoretically, one of the combatants could die really fast, then the other three of them fight it out for hours. At that point, I thought it would implausible to resurrect the character. I considered having dead people be airlifted out of the stadium, but the way I've set it up it pressures the deceased's companion to end the fight (one way or another). Credit to the D&D manual where I stole the idea from. 

If a player is below 0 HP but above - 10 HP when the fight ends, I'll consider them to have been unconscious, and thus able to be healed. If they dip below - 10, there's no bringing them back. (A consequence I introduced because this fight is more connected to the plot/continuity than ones past).I'm piloting this system with hopes it might be worth applying to other fights. We'll see how it works out. 

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3 hours ago, Archer said:

Normally, yes. The fight would end as soon as you die, then within seconds healers would descend upon the field and heal/uncurse/reconstruct you. But this is a 2v2 battle. Theoretically, one of the combatants could die really fast, then the other three of them fight it out for hours. At that point, I thought it would implausible to resurrect the character. I considered having dead people be airlifted out of the stadium, but the way I've set it up it pressures the deceased's companion to end the fight (one way or another). Credit to the D&D manual where I stole the idea from. 

If a player is below 0 HP but above - 10 HP when the fight ends, I'll consider them to have been unconscious, and thus able to be healed. If they dip below - 10, there's no bringing them back. (A consequence I introduced because this fight is more connected to the plot/continuity than ones past).I'm piloting this system with hopes it might be worth applying to other fights. We'll see how it works out. 

Cool! That makes a lot of sense.

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On 10/4/2018 at 4:36 AM, Archer said:

Normally, yes. The fight would end as soon as you die, then within seconds healers would descend upon the field and heal/uncurse/reconstruct you. But this is a 2v2 battle. Theoretically, one of the combatants could die really fast, then the other three of them fight it out for hours. At that point, I thought it would implausible to resurrect the character. I considered having dead people be airlifted out of the stadium, but the way I've set it up it pressures the deceased's companion to end the fight (one way or another). Credit to the D&D manual where I stole the idea from. 

If a player is below 0 HP but above - 10 HP when the fight ends, I'll consider them to have been unconscious, and thus able to be healed. If they dip below - 10, there's no bringing them back. (A consequence I introduced because this fight is more connected to the plot/continuity than ones past).I'm piloting this system with hopes it might be worth applying to other fights. We'll see how it works out. 

Interesting. Also I do hope that there is a VERY strong barrier between the audience and the fighters. If one of the twins dies, Devaan could lose it.

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On 10/4/2018 at 9:36 AM, Archer said:

I considered having dead people be airlifted out of the stadium, but the way I've set it up it pressures the deceased's companion to end the fight (one way or another). Credit to the D&D manual where I stole the idea from.

Isn't this contradictory to lore with the morals of this particular society though? I mean they do their best to bring the 'dead' back to life in 1v1 battles, but in 2v2's they just leave one die if the battle doesn't end

Makes sense mechanically, but in-universe that's iffy

and even if the medics are just here to do their jobs, and don't care much about people dying, the audience watches these duels for entertainment, if this is an above-the-board legal duel (and since it's Arena of Valor it seems to be), then that means pretty much any civilian can enter the arena to watch the fight. That says a lot about the AlleyCity's morals if the average person likes to watch people die in a fight

Even Alethi who like fighting don't usually end their duels in death

Either way works for me, I can incorporate the dubious morality into some background stuff and maybe some sideplots c:

Edited by Cyanic
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10 hours ago, Cyanic said:

Isn't this contradictory to lore with the morals of this particular society though? I mean they do their best to bring the 'dead' back to life in 1v1 battles, but in 2v2's they just leave one die if the battle doesn't end

Makes sense mechanically, but in-universe that's iffy

and even if the medics are just here to do their jobs, and don't care much about people dying, the audience watches these duels for entertainment, if this is an above-the-board legal duel (and since it's Arena of Valor it seems to be), then that means pretty much any civilian can enter the arena to watch the fight. That says a lot about the AlleyCity's morals if the average person likes to watch people die in a fight

Even Alethi who like fighting don't usually end their duels in death

Either way works for me, I can incorporate the dubious morality into some background stuff and maybe some sideplots c:

I’m not so sure, this is the very first 2v2 battle in the alleyverse. In universe, people probably don’t know what is going to happen if one person drops dead, And they came to this game expecting some variation of that base rule. In addition, this is a very different crowd then the one that was attending the initial duels, it’s 16 years later and all a lot of people remember are the stories that others told them. It’s possible that there is a social uproar about duels with real risk of death. 

Another possible option is that their morals aren’t dubious per say, but that death is an expected part of life here. With the amount of fighting that goes on by people in the alleyverse, I wouldn’t be surprised if death was more accepted. Dubious implies that they are blood thirsty here, I wouldn’t call this that.

Finally, there’s always the option of the DA taking the CS’s of people and using an essence spike to return them to a body, as a possible consequence. 

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Just now, MacThorstenson said:

I’m not so sure, this is the very first 2v2 battle in the alleyverse. In universe, people probably don’t know what is going to happen if one person drops dead, And they came to this game expecting some variation of that base rule. In addition, this is a very different crowd then the one that was attending the initial duels, it’s 16 years later and all a lot of people remember are the stories that others told them. It’s possible that there is a social uproar about duels with real risk of death

Makes sense, so that just leaves the medical staff if they're alright with leaving a dead person down there instead of lifting them out per 1v1 standards

Just now, MacThorstenson said:

Another possible option is that their morals aren’t dubious per say, but that death is an expected part of life here. With the amount of fighting that goes on by people in the alleyverse, I wouldn’t be surprised if death was more accepted. Dubious implies that they are blood thirsty here, I wouldn’t call this that.

Sure, but think of this world's (I mean Earth's) views of death, death is also pretty accepted as a part of life here, though people would prefer for that to not happen. I think it's pretty comparable to Alleyverse standards on death actually, just that this world is much less powered than the Alleyverse. Focusing particularly in sports with fighting, there are a lot of measures that prevent someone from dying in the boxing ring or the octagon, and if someone did accidentally die, that'd be seen as tragedy in the sport. This has potential for good worldbuilding if that did happen in this particular duel, and the staff make it really sure that no one else suffers death in the arena

There is a way for people to be neither morally dubious nor in uproar over a death in the arena, and that'd be by the participants having signed like a waiver for death, but still that'd at least illicit a quiet moment of shock and respect from the audience, but I'd imagine there would still be a few audience members shouting something like "why isn't he/she being airlifted?!" then it goes downhill from there because mob mentality and stuff

Just now, MacThorstenson said:

Finally, there’s always the option of the DA taking the CS’s of people and using an essence spike to return them to a body, as a possible consequence. 

This would also pretty much alleviate the audience's concerns like the airlifting part, but it also undermines Archer's whole system of making 2v2's more tense, since the whole point was them dying permanently,

oof

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1 hour ago, Cyanic said:

Sure, but think of this world's (I mean Earth's) views of death, death is also pretty accepted as a part of life here, though people would prefer for that to not happen. I think it's pretty comparable to Alleyverse standards on death actually, just that this world is much less powered than the Alleyverse. Focusing particularly in sports with fighting, there are a lot of measures that prevent someone from dying in the boxing ring or the octagon, and if someone did accidentally die, that'd be seen as tragedy in the sport. This has potential for good worldbuilding if that did happen in this particular duel, and the staff make it really sure that no one else suffers death in the arena

I will have to disagree here, the amount of violence that goes on in this world is vastly different to that which goes on in the alleyverse. For a quick comparison, in the alleyverse, nearly every single person you pass on the street has the ability to kill you easily. We also don’t have a policing force to take care of stuff like that or other random violence.

There is an organization of assassins that exists and there is no public outrage at their existence. 

We also have a military force occupying the alley city, and had a major world changing war like 16 years ago.  

I think that in the alleyverse, death/ violence is a whole lot more common and accepted then in earth. 

I think that the idea that there is a waver of death that people would sign is a good one, but I feel like it would be implicitly accepted, like a "By signing up for these duels you assume responsibilty for what happens."

1 hour ago, Cyanic said:

This would also pretty much alleviate the audience's concerns like the airlifting part, but it also undermines Archer's whole system of making 2v2's more tense, since the whole point was them dying permanently,

I will also have to disagree on this (Well, the first part).

There is a well documented opposition to the DA, nobody really likes them. A lot of the history of the alleyverse, (from even before the sub forum) has been characterized by people fighting the DA. For some if not many, the superstition surrounding us would make some rather be dead then have us mess with their soul. 

If you think about it, it makes sense. We are essentially a group of drug dealers/criminals that people tolerate because we created the universe. 

I agree that it would alleviate the whole dying permanently thing, but there really is no guarantee that the DA returns your soul to your body, or even gives it back to you. It does add a different kind of set back, instead of flat out death. Which some may like, or some may not.

Edited by MacThorstenson
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8 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

I will also have to disagree on this (Well, the first part).

There is a well documented opposition to the DA, nobody really likes them. A lot of the history of the alleyverse, (from even before the sub forum) has been characterized by people fighting the DA. For some if not many, the superstition surrounding us would make some rather be dead then have us mess with their soul. 

If you think about it, it makes sense. We are essentially a group of drug dealers/criminals that people tolerate because we created the universe. 

I agree that it would alleviate the whole dying permanently thing, but there really is no guarantee that the DA returns your soul to your body, or even gives it back to you. It does add a different kind of set back, instead of flat out death. Which some may like, or some may not.

Ah I see, I didn't think that you meant it as a consequence instead of a failsafe, misunderstood that

8 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

I will have to disagree here, the amount of violence that goes on in this world is vastly different to that which goes on in the alleyverse. For a quick comparison, in the alleyverse, nearly every single person you pass on the street has the ability to kill you easily. We also don’t have a policing force to take care of stuff like that or other random violence.

That happens in some parts of the world, but I get what you mean,
the Alleyverse also actually has a police force in the form of the Skybreakers, though they're not that active anymore in-RP since no one's RPing them, but they still exist, but that still makes for a good side plot that I'll keep in mind. (also by assassins, if you mean the GB's, I don't think they're as active as before anymore, but I guess they'd still exist if the Skybreakers do) (EDIT: not that inactive anymore with the presence of the ball)

In my opinion the presence of these things in the world would make some people accept death and violence, sure, but it'd also make other people really adverse to it and try to find solace in things like entertainment. Imagine this:

A guy who liked fighting but doesn't like death. He's stressed out by the implications of a military occupying the city and doesn't like that any number of people he meets (including himself) could be killed by an assassin if they stepped on the wrong toes. Today, he hears that the arena's having its grand re-opening with its first ever 2v2 fight. He found solace in the entertainment the arena provided those 16 years ago so he imagines it'll take his mind off the daily stress again.

He watches, it's great, entertaining, exciting, and it makes him forget of his daily stresses. One of the fighters gets knocked out, sword through chest. That happened a lot, this is different since it's a 2v2, but he's sure the fighter will just be tended to any moment now. Probably pause the battle to drag the 'corpse' out of the arena and tend to the fighter, bringing them back to life and healing them.

A few more moments pass and it's clear no one's tending to the fighter, he then yells out why no one's tending to him, in denial that his favorite means of entertainment could be marred by a death. Other people who think the same follow him in their yelling with a sort of mob mentality and some amount of chaos breaks loose in the arena,

@Archer since this is your system, what do you think?

Edited by Cyanic
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I think the Isaac the Intern may grow a conscience. :ph34r:

I think that unrest in the crowd would be a reasonable response. Normally, as the mediator, I'd sic a dragon on anyone who tries to interfere with the fight. Or just throw up a speed bubble to end the fight really quickly (from the audience's point of view.) The gamemaster in me still likes the idea of combatants having to choose between saving their partner but surrendering, or carrying on with the fight to try to win but risking leaving their partner to die. High stakes makes for good ratings. But as we saw in the Hunger Games, people get tired of that after a while. (And then it's berries for me :(.) 

Maybe killing someone in a duel would cause the people to revolt afterwards, and an anti-dueling sentiment would emerge, resulting in reform for later duels. Or maybe we could include the audience. We can set up polls. Should Atticus be saved? Vote to decide his fate! That would allow the morals of the audience to be expressed. 

But for this duel I'd need the combatants to sign off on allowing audience interaction (aka ending the fight early because there's a mob). Until I get that, any mob would have to be kept out of the combat zone, but is free to trash the seats etc.  

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Just now, Archer said:

I think the Isaac the Intern may grow a conscience. :ph34r:

I think that unrest in the crowd would be a reasonable response. Normally, as the mediator, I'd sic a dragon on anyone who tries to interfere with the fight. Or just throw up a speed bubble to end the fight really quickly (from the audience's point of view.) The gamemaster in me still likes the idea of combatants having to choose between saving their partner but surrendering, or carrying on with the fight to try to win but risking leaving their partner to die. High stakes makes for good ratings. But as we saw in the Hunger Games, people get tired of that after a while. (And then it's berries for me :(.) 

Maybe killing someone in a duel would cause the people to revolt afterwards, and an anti-dueling sentiment would emerge, resulting in reform for later duels. Or maybe we could include the audience. We can set up polls. Should Atticus be saved? Vote to decide his fate! That would allow the morals of the audience to be expressed. 

But for this duel I'd need the combatants to sign off on allowing audience interaction (aka ending the fight early because there's a mob). Until I get that, any mob would have to be kept out of the combat zone, but is free to trash the seats etc.  

These are good ideas, though who would play as the audience to vote on the polls?

Also, don't forget it's not just the audience but also the medical staff and what they'd want to do, (unless they're medical constructs instead of the usual hired people, in that case they can be told to not save people and have no qualms against it)

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We have the public poll at the start of the thread. We could have actual people vote (I'm sure those 12 who voted already would be willing to oblige us). Then the characters in the audience could react appropriately. Eg. Fangblade growls and gives a thumbs-down. 

I'm sure the doctors have some oath that they'd be breaking if they let a contestant die. Even in Hamilton the doctor immediately helped once the duel was done. But he didn't interfere before then. If a medical professional convinced themselves that it was their duty to wait until the end... it's a tough moral issue. I'll have to think on that.

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