Trell is not Autonomy

[Leyrann]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And why should it have stayed the same? Ruin didn't. Odium didn't. Preservation didn't. Removing the Shards from the whole that they were a part of irrevocably changed them. 

And as I said previously, if Autonomy is about maintaining the autonomy of individuals, it should be more shackled than even Harmony. All action that effects something impinges upon its autonomy.

I'm not arguing Autonomy's nature, we already know we disagree about that. I'm just arguing that you're not internally consistent in your argument. If the idea of Autonomy is to protect from self, then the idea of Autonomy remains to protect from self even if the rest is stripped away. Autonomy interferes, which you say is the opposite of what the Autonomy part of Adonalsium would have done.

Ruin stayed the same - all things have to pass, it's just not balanced out by 15 other things.
Odium stayed the same - divine hatred is still needed, it's just not balanced out by 15 other things.
Preservation stayed the same - it still tries to preserve, it's just not balanced out by 15 other things.

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What did change? Medallions already existed in the south. The meeting of the magics if not the people was inevitable. And yet something did change. 

My point exactly. Clearly, the technological change was not the point, as you've been arguing.

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is not true. We know that Taldain was blockaded from travel for a time. We don't know the reasoning for it. We also know that that blockade has ended. 

I never talked about the blockade. I talked about the cosmere awareness of the people on Autonomy's worlds (under Autonomy's control; serving autonomy) versus the cosmere awareness of those following Trell.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Leyrann

[Calderis]

Just now, Leyrann said:

I'm not arguing Autonomy's nature, we already know we disagree about that. I'm just arguing that you're not internally consistent in your argument. If the idea of Autonomy is to protect from self, then the idea of Autonomy remains to protect from self even if the rest is stripped away. Autonomy interferes, which you say is the opposite of what the Autonomy part of Adonalsium would have done.

No it doesn't. If the purpose of the intent is to separate sapient beings from the influence of the Shards, and that intent is not self directed, than Autonomy is by nature a hypocrite who sees the interference of others as a problem that it must intercede in. Preservation is not about preserving self. Ruin is not about ruining self, Cultivation is not about cultivating self. And if I'm right Autonomy doesn't care about autonomy from itself. Just the others. 

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

No it doesn't. If the purpose of the intent is to separate sapient beings from the influence of the Shards, and that intent is not self directed, than Autonomy is by nature a hypocrite who sees the interference of others as a problem that it must intercede in. Preservation is not about preserving self. Ruin is not about ruining self, Cultivation is not about cultivating self. And if I'm right Autonomy doesn't care about autonomy from itself. Just the others. 

But Adonalsium was a single whole, not a 16-piece Wheel of Intents or something like that. There were no pieces of him before the Shattering, so Autonomy cannot have applied to just a part of himself.

And let me, again, quote Bands of Mourning, with different bolding (mine) this time:

Quote

"But you need us!" Suit said. "To rule, to manage civilization on--"
"No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. [...]"

There's not even a hint of talk about Harmony or it's influence on the people. It's about civilization itself and whether Trell rules it.

Also I finished my previous post.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Leyrann

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This is even reflected in the naturally occurring magic systems associated with Autonomy, in which users are not given access to investiture directly, but have to work through an intermediary that keeps them secondhand to the Shards power (both the sand, and the Aviar). In the case of the magics, this would be a natural process and not a decision on Autonomy's part. 

That seems like a big stretch to me. I mean the only magic system we’ve really seen so far in which people actually do access the Investiture directly is AonDor and the other magic systems of Sel, and even then only the full Elantrians and only arguably. In Allomancy, Feruchemy, Haemolurgy, Surgebinding, and Awakening, the actual source of the power used to fuel the magic is external (or at least independent of) to the user. Metal in Allomancy, Stormlight in Surgebinding, Endowment’s breath in Awakening. If anything, the systems associated with Autonomy seem like the rule not the exception. I mean in Sandmastery, the sand effectively plays the equivalent role as metal does in Allomancy.

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

That seems like a big stretch to me. I mean the only magic system we’ve really seen so far in which people actually do access the Investiture directly is AonDor and the other magic systems of Sel, and even then only the full Elantrians and only arguably. In Allomancy, Feruchemy, Haemolurgy, Surgebinding, and Awakening, the actual source of the power used to fuel the magic is external (or at least independent of) to the user. Metal in Allomancy, Stormlight in Surgebinding, Endowment’s breath in Awakening. If anything, the systems associated with Autonomy seem like the rule not the exception. I mean in Sandmastery, the sand effectively plays the equivalent role as metal does in Allomancy.

What? Allomancy uses metal as a key to a direct feed of Investiture from Preservation. Surgebinding, they literally breath in Investiture. Breath is a form of Investiture that is directly granted to Nalthians in utero. 

In contrast, sandmasters must get their investiture through an expenditure of water to another living thing that can actually absorb it naturally. The aviar use powers themselves that people can benefit from. In both, if it weren't for a living creature capable of harnessing investiture in the first place, humans wouldn't have access to investiture at all.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Autonomy interferes, which you say is the opposite of what the Autonomy part of Adonalsium would have done.

Ruin stayed the same - all things have to pass, it's just not balanced out by 15 other things.
Odium stayed the same - divine hatred is still needed, it's just not balanced out by 15 other things.
Preservation stayed the same - it still tries to preserve, it's just not balanced out by 15 other things.

Except from Autonomy's view it wouldn't be interfering, it would be interceding. By these arguments, it wouldn't have changed either. Its just that the things it normally prevented in Adonalsium have been pushed outward into the other Shards. It's doing the same thing it's always done. 

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

I never talked about the blockade. I talked about the cosmere awareness of the people on Autonomy's worlds (under Autonomy's control; serving autonomy) versus the cosmere awareness of those following Trell.

If you weren't talking about the blockade, then what were you talking about? What do we know about the cosmere awareness of the average person on any shardworld? It not huge. And a foreign invader using locals to assault kind of has to go for people that are both dissatisfied with the current state, and either stupid enough not to ask questions, or intelligent enough to realize what is going on. Whether you're talking about the emergence of a new God, or simply an influx of cash and weaponry, someone is going to start asking questions about just where all the money/power/whatever is coming from. 

Even if all of Autonomy's worlds are like First of the Sun and seemingly ignorant, which we don't know, using locals to wage a war by necessity can't operate the same way. 

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

My point exactly. Clearly, the technological change was not the point, as you've been arguing.

Except previously that was all either relegated to people where the Metallic Arts are seemingly rare naturally, or in the hands of people that Trell was using. That did change, including the Bands themselves being in the hands of Harmony's servants. 

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

There's not even a hint of talk about Harmony or it's influence on the people. It's about civilization itself and whether Trell rules it.

And that's not needed, because we get that aspect from both bleeder and Harmony itself. The set are tools. They don't care about Harmony at all. The events throughout the books make it clear that Harmony is the target of Trell's assault though. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What? Allomancy uses metal as a key to a direct feed of Investiture from Preservation. Surgebinding, they literally breath in Investiture. Breath is a form of Investiture that is directly granted to Nalthians in utero. 

In contrast, sandmasters must get their investiture through an expenditure of water to another living thing that can actually absorb it naturally. The aviar use powers themselves that people can benefit from. In both, if it weren't for a living creature capable of harnessing investiture in the first place, humans wouldn't have access to investiture at all.

 

But they’re still ultimately using Autonomy’s Investiture to power their magic though is my point. The only difference is how it’s done. On Scadrial, Preservation’s Investiture is infused in the various metals, and when Allomancers ‘burn’ the metal, they absorb that Investiture. Similarly, on Taldain Autonomy’s Investiture is infused in the sand, which the Sandmasters absorb at a cost of the moisture in their bodies as you said. Sure the two systems are distinct, but my point is that ultimately the power still comes directly from the respective Shards. They’re both what TVTropes would identify as ‘force magic’.

When I think of a magic system like you describe, something not directly powered by a Shard, I think of how magic works in the Inheritance Cycle, where the energy needed to do magic is extracted directly from the magic user’s body rather than (at least usually) from some external source.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Leyrann]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except from Autonomy's view it wouldn't be interfering, it would be interceding. By these arguments, it wouldn't have changed either. Its just that the things it normally prevented in Adonalsium have been pushed outward into the other Shards. It's doing the same thing it's always done. 

But nowhere have you properly explained why Autonomy's "avoid interference with mortal lives" no longer applies to Autonomy's own interfering. There is a fundamental difference between the "not applying to self" which you consider to be the same. A Shard, as we know, is not subject to their own Intent; Preservation gives up a little piece of himself to preserve an allomancer's body, to take the most well-known example. This is, as the example makes obvious, to make sure that who they are dealing with is subject to their Intent. And in Autonomy's case, if Autonomy works as you theorize (which I very highly doubt, considering this very contradiction), then making sure that those the Shard is dealing with is subject to the Shard's Intent means not interfering.

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If you weren't talking about the blockade, then what were you talking about? What do we know about the cosmere awareness of the average person on any shardworld? It not huge. And a foreign invader using locals to assault kind of has to go for people that are both dissatisfied with the current state, and either stupid enough not to ask questions, or intelligent enough to realize what is going on. Whether you're talking about the emergence of a new God, or simply an influx of cash and weaponry, someone is going to start asking questions about just where all the money/power/whatever is coming from. 

Even if all of Autonomy's worlds are like First of the Sun and seemingly ignorant, which we don't know, using locals to wage a war by necessity can't operate the same way. 

I wouldn't quite call Trell a foreign invader, as that implies a Worldhopping army. That's semantics though.

My point is that it's perfectly possible for Trell - in particular if he were to want a universe without interplanetary interaction - to set up the Set (pun again not intended) without ever telling them there are other inhabited planets; something that he has actually told at least people of the rank of Mr Suit, who we know is not the highest rank. That implies, to me, that Trell is not aiming for isolated planets.

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except previously that was all either relegated to people where the Metallic Arts are seemingly rare naturally, or in the hands of people that Trell was using. That did change, including the Bands themselves being in the hands of Harmony's servants. 

As I've previously argued, even Ruin would be able to see well enough into the future to know that, as soon as an Industrial Revolution breaks out, it will not stop until the world is as small as our modern world. There is no way the civilizations weren't going to meet just because the Set (and Trell) would be in control of Northern Scadrial. Even at current technology levels it would be a matter of time; after all, we saw it happen. And yet the setback from the Set (you know what, pun storming intended) was what made Trell change his mind.

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And that's not needed, because we get that aspect from both bleeder and Harmony itself. The set are tools. They don't care about Harmony at all. The events throughout the books make it clear that Harmony is the target of Trell's assault though.

There's not a hint of talk about Harmony from Trell's servant. The only way you can talk this right is by saying he straight up lied to someone who was about to die in five seconds.

[Scion of the Mists]

12 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

On Scadrial, Preservation’s Investiture is infused in the various metals, and when Allomancers ‘burn’ the metal, they absorb that Investiture.

The Investiture is not in the metal.  There is nothing that differentiates Scadrian metal from metal on other worlds.  The metal is a key that shapes Preservation's Investiture which comes from the Spiritual Realm.  

16 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Similarly, on Taldain Autonomy’s Investiture is infused in the sand, which the Sandmasters absorb at a cost of the moisture in their bodies as you said

It's not the sand itself that is Invested - it's the microorganisms living on the sand.  

 

 

I think the point that @Calderis was trying to make is that on both Taldain and First of the Sun, people get their powers indirectly through other living creatures, not directly from a Shard.  Sure, the Investiture ultimately came from the Shard (it would have to), but it's a very indirect way of getting it.  

 

[Fanghur Rahl]

I tend to agree with @Leyrann. It is very difficult to see how this view of Autonomy can be internally consistent without a considerable amount of contriving. If nothing else, it certainly seems quite convoluted when compared to literally every other Shard we know of.

And touché, I didn’t know that was how Allomancy worked.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

But they’re still ultimately using Autonomy’s Investiture to power their magic though is my point. The only difference is how it’s done. On Scadrial, Preservation’s Investiture is infused in the various metals, and when Allomancers ‘burn’ the metal, they absorb that Investiture. Similarly, on Taldain Autonomy’s Investiture is infused in the sand, which the Sandmasters absorb at a cost of the moisture in their bodies as you said. Sure the two systems are distinct, but my point is that ultimately the power still comes directly from the respective Shards. They’re both what TVTropes would identify as ‘force magic’.

When I think of a magic system like you describe, something not directly powered by a Shard, I think of how magic works in the Inheritance Cycle, where the energy needed to do magic is extracted directly from the magic user’s body rather than (at least usually) from some external source.

Metals are not invested. They act as a key to a direct feed from Preservation. This is why metals work anywhere. You need the sDNA for the power, and the key to access it, but the investiture is provided directly from the Shard to the person. 

Quote

Zmann966

Is the metal on Scadrial specially Invested? Can an Allomancer use metals from other planets?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2)

Metal is a key, not the source of power itself. Most is not specially Invested. It glows because of the power seeking to come through it, not because of the power within it.

source

The lichens on the sand on the other hand, absorb investiture, which a sandmaster can then use and expend. One is provided directly from a Shard. One is accessed by an intermediary party and only what that party has is available.

7 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

But nowhere have you properly explained why Autonomy's "avoid interference with mortal lives" no longer applies to Autonomy's own interfering. There is a fundamental difference between the "not applying to self" which you consider to be the same. A Shard, as we know, is not subject to their own Intent; Preservation gives up a little piece of himself to preserve an allomancer's body, to take the most well-known example. This is, as the example makes obvious, to make sure that who they are dealing with is subject to their Intent. And in Autonomy's case, if Autonomy works as you theorize (which I very highly doubt, considering this very contradiction), then making sure that those the Shard is dealing with is subject to the Shard's Intent means not interfering.

What? Where is being subject to a shards intent ever an aspect of the magics? People can use allomantic powers for what ever destructive mean they wish. 

10 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

My point is that it's perfectly possible for Trell - in particular if he were to want a universe without interplanetary interaction - to set up the Set (pun again not intended) without ever telling them there are other inhabited planets; something that he has actually told at least people of the rank of Mr Suit, who we know is not the highest rank. That implies, to me, that Trell is not aiming for isolated planets.

I don't think Trell wants isolated planets? I don't think I've said that? 

12 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

As I've previously argued, even Ruin would be able to see well enough into the future to know that, as soon as an Industrial Revolution breaks out, it will not stop until the world is as small as our modern world. There is no way the civilizations weren't going to meet just because the Set (and Trell) would be in control of Northern Scadrial. Even at current technology levels it would be a matter of time; after all, we saw it happen. And yet the setback from the Set (you know what, pun storming intended) was what made Trell change his mind.

Yes, because now that technological advancement had advanced outside of the planned control structure that Trell intended through setting up the Set. 

 

13 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

There's not a hint of talk about Harmony from Trell's servant. The only way you can talk this right is by saying he straight up lied to someone who was about to die in five seconds.

In what way would that be any more "Trell's Servant" than bleeder? It's an entity if its own. 

[Leyrann]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What? Where is being subject to a shards intent ever an aspect of the magics? People can use allomantic powers for what ever destructive mean they wish. 

You're getting things confused here, I wasn't talking about the magic at any point. I'm just talking about how Shards can 'break' their own Intent applied to themselves (and only then) in order to apply it to others, and how that extrapolates to Autonomy.

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think Trell wants isolated planets? I don't think I've said that? 

Here:

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because that was a turning point? Control and containment was the original goal. Technological advancement suddenly meant that containment was no longer a feasible plan. 

On top of that, I also find it hard to understand why Taldain was isolated from the rest of the cosmere by Autonomy unless she wanted to stop worldhopping, so if Autonomy = Trell that is certainly a hint in that direction.

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In what way would that be any more "Trell's Servant" than bleeder? It's an entity if its own. 

I don't see how this is related to Bleeder? I'm saying that there's little reason for a servant of Trell (which that being surely was, as it was recognized as such by Edwarn) to lie to someone who's about to die. Refuse to talk, I could see that, but telling them a lie, not so much.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

You're getting things confused here, I wasn't talking about the magic at any point. I'm just talking about how Shards can 'break' their own Intent applied to themselves (and only then) in order to apply it to others, and how that extrapolates to Autonomy.

They can't. The issue is always in how the power wishes to be used. There's is no breakage. And by what I'm saying there still is not. 

Look at it this way. Maybe this will make what I mean clear. The intents, in my opinion, are pieces of what was the mind of Adonalsium. They are applied to all things that the intents apply to. In almost every case this is outwardly directed. Ruin thinks that all things should end. Preservation, all things maintained. Cultivation, that things should be made to grow. Endowment, that power should be bestowed. 

I think that Autonomy is different. I think it is the only intent we've seen that was inwardly directed. It was Adonalsium's need for self restraint. As such, I think it still applies to all of Adonalsium. So I think that yes, on her own world(s) Autonomy takes a very hands off approach, but I think it sees the other Shards specifically as something that need to be countered. Their influence is stifling. 

My main question in regards to Autonomy at this point is actually the pact that the Vessels all swore. I think it may be the reason for Autonomy's avatars in the first place. Bavadin swore not to interfere with the plans and dealings of the other Shards and should be bound to that. If she were to make avatars elsewhere though, then they are, as separate entities, not bound by that same oath.

I don't think that servitude or enslavement or empowerment of individuals actually matters to Autonomy in the slightest so long as those things are done between people. The moment a Shard is involved though? 

In many ways, this, in my mind, put Autonomy as a direct opposite to the Shard of Endowment. 

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Here:

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because that was a turning point? Control and containment was the original goal. Technological advancement suddenly meant that containment was no longer a feasible plan. 

On top of that, I also find it hard to understand why Taldain was isolated from the rest of the cosmere by Autonomy unless she wanted to stop worldhopping, so if Autonomy = Trell that is certainly a hint in that direction.

You misunderstand me. I don't think isolation as a whole is the goal. I meant the containment and isolation I Scadrial only, as it's people are a direct creation of a Shard. 

As to Taldain, I think it's isolation was an initial attempt to protect its people from exposure to outside shardic influence, but that as time progresses that has been abandoned because eventually that will not be avoidable by isolation itself. The only way to prevent such influence is to end the Shards. 

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I don't see how this is related to Bleeder? I'm saying that there's little reason for a servant of Trell (which that being surely was, as it was recognized as such by Edwarn) to lie to someone who's about to die. Refuse to talk, I could see that, but telling them a lie, not so much.

I take it you don't think that the creatures words "you will be allowed to serve in another realm" are true then? In my view, if he's dead, it lied to him no matter which of us are right. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

@Calderis are you saying that you think Bavadin’s reasoning is seriously along the lines of “Gee, I swore I wouldn’t interfere with other Shards, so I guess I’ll deliberately create all these avatars for the purpose of interfering with other Shards!”? There is no judge on the planet who would rule that that wouldn’t be a gross violation of the deal.

Plus, the Avatars would all presumably be extensions of Autonomy’s own mind, so they wouldn’t truly be ‘separate’, but rather different agents of a larger collective hive mind.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

@Calderis are you saying that you think Bavadin’s reasoning is seriously along the lines of “Gee, I swore I wouldn’t interfere with other Shards, so I guess I’ll deliberately create all these avatars for the purpose of interfering with other Shards!”? There is no judge on the planet who would rule that that wouldn’t be a gross violation of the deal.

There is clearly no judge to decide if they've kept the pact or not beyond themselves. 

Quote

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

Source

 

16 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Plus, the Avatars would all presumably be extensions of Autonomy’s own mind, so they wouldn’t truly be ‘separate’, but rather different agents of a larger collective hive mind.

I don't believe so. I believe that they are connected Spiritually, but that they are independent Cognitive entities. Obviously speculation as we know nothing of Avatars beyond the word. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There is clearly no judge to decide if they've kept the pact or not beyond themselves. 

I understand that Calderis, I’m just saying that regardless of whether that truly is why she makes her avatars or not, that would seriously be an almost Dr. Evil-tier rationalization for avoiding her oath. Hiring someone to kill someone for you still makes you a murderer if they succeed. Likewise, creating an avatar to mess with the other Shards still counts as you interfering with them, at least by literally any meaningful and reasonable sense, since the avatar would effectively just be your tool for doing it.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[Yata]

5 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I understand that Calderis, I’m just saying that regardless of whether that truly is why she makes her avatars or not, that would seriously be an almost Dr. Evil-tier rationalization for avoiding her oath. Hiring someone to kill someone for you still makes you a murderer if they succeed. Likewise, creating an avatar to mess with the other Shards still counts as you interfering with them, at least by literally any meaningful and reasonable sense, since the avatar would effectively just be your tool for doing it.

If you think about it's not too different from making a Splinter of yourself and placing it in a way you know it will mess with other Shards' reigns.

This scenario is fictional, every possible reference to Endowment and her Returned + Nightblood into the hotspot Roshar is... Is purely causal

[Scion of the Mists]

On 9/26/2018 at 7:14 PM, Fanghur Rahl said:

Gee, I swore I wouldn’t interfere with other Shards

Are we sure we know what the "pact" actually was?  Because there are a ton of different formulations that leave a lot of wiggle room (e.g. "Our oath never said anything about what our avatars could do").  Plus, we know that the pact (whatever it was) still allowed for both Honor/Cultivation and Ruin/Preservation to settle on the same world (plus that whole non-cannon Endowment mistspirit thing).  

Regarding Bavadin's hypocrisy, we know that Shards do have some level of ability to go against their Intent (see Ruin creating an entire planet).  My current belief is that Autonomy's drive is to free people from Shardic meddling, and is willing to do some meddling of her own to accomplish her goal.  The ends justify the means, if you will.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by Scion of the Mists

[animalia]

On 9/25/2018 at 0:48 PM, Calderis said:

Autonomy as an intent in my opinion, can go one of two ways. It's either the most free to do as it wishes, or the most limited. 

All actions, no matter how small, both impinge on the autonomy of some things, and bolster the autonomy of others. Depending on which way that is viewed, almost anything can be either justified, or forbidden. 

Give a man a new, wonderful job and you limit his autonomy through responsibility and demands on his time. Kill a woman's family and free her from their needs and desires. Twisted views that are both misguided, and technically true. 

In contrast, if Autonomy must hold that the autonomy of all beings is sacred and cannot be impinged upon, then she can do nothing, as all actions will impinge on the autonomy of someone in some way. Even the act of aiding someone is technically invalidated as it means they are not self-sufficient. 

The fact that we know Autonomy likes to interfere in other worlds makes me think that the autonomy of individuals can't mean much. 

Neat. Building on this how much do you want to bet Autonomy’s various Avatar’s interfear with each other?

 

 

EDIIT: Speaking of is anyone here familiar with Hinduism?

While I am NOT an expert. My limited understanding of it is that all of what we westerners would call “gods” are all AVATARs of the creative force called BRHAMAN. And IF my google-fu is accurate, avatars CAN fight each other. But since as previously stated I am not an expert in Hinduism I could like some back up on that.

P.S. In case it’s not clear what I am getting at it’s POSSIBLE that problems caused by ONE avatar of Autonomy may end up being thwarted by another. 

P.P.S. What was the name of Trell’s brother again? Maybe we look for him to appear in the lost metal?

 But that’s just a theory.

SECOND EDIT: Brandon did say that he doesn’t believe any religion has the monopoly on the truth. So IF my theory is correct you can guess that the Autonomy and it’s Avatars have done a lot of good. Don’t forget that Hoid has his own biases, and Brandon has that Bavadin is one of the more interesting shardholders. Though, to be fair, that can be interpreted multiple ways.

Edited September 30, 2018 by animalia
Added details.

[animalia]

7 hours ago, animalia said:

Neat. Building on this how much do you want to bet Autonomy’s various Avatar’s interfear with each other?

 

 

EDIIT: Speaking of is anyone here familiar with Hinduism?

While I am NOT an expert. My limited understanding of it is that all of what we westerners would call “gods” are all AVATARs of the creative force called BRHAMAN. And IF my google-fu is accurate, avatars CAN fight each other. But since as previously stated I am not an expert in Hinduism I could like some back up on that.

P.S. In case it’s not clear what I am getting at it’s POSSIBLE that problems caused by ONE avatar of Autonomy may end up being thwarted by another. 

P.P.S. What was the name of Trell’s brother again? Maybe we look for him to appear in the lost metal?

 But that’s just a theory.

SECOND EDIT: Brandon did say that he doesn’t believe any religion has the monopoly on the truth. So IF my theory is correct you can guess that the Autonomy and it’s Avatars have done a lot of good. Don’t forget that Hoid has his own biases, and Brandon has that Bavadin is one of the more interesting shardholders. Though, to be fair, that can be interpreted multiple ways.

New thought

Now that I have had more time to think about it. I don't think  Autonomy is a reflection of Hinduism per say. BUT I think as Autoonomy spread it's investiture and avatars. It's Avatar's and investiture got mixed with that of the other shard. If you were to study religious history and comparative religion for example. Autonomy MIGHT be the concept that relates closest to the proto-Indo-European religion for example. But as it spreads and it interacts with other shards and takes on new forms. For Example In Eleantris THERE in probably where we get what we see with Hinduism. and buddhism (maybe the teachings of Raoden?). The fact Brandons Sanderson said that he needs to write the Elantris sequals before the third era of Mistborn books can happen might have to do with the way that Buddhism lost influence in its native India as got reabsorped into Hinduism but went on to spread to other areas including China where it share influences with other philosophies and religions including Taoism. Taoism is also known as the the WAY for those of you who don't know. I could go about this for awhile. But this is worth at thread in it's own right. And I basically just wanted to correct my own misconception that I had already provided.

 

But I will leave this with two thoughts. One Brandon prefers allegory over interpretation so you know that there will be NO one to one interpretations. And TWO Brandon said that as devout as he is in his faith, he feels that NO religion has a monopoly on the truth. Let's leave it at that.

[+Oltux72]

Trell and Nalt were brothers. (According to Sazed in The Final Empire). Nalt points toward Nalthis.

We also have the thing with the red eyes, which means relatively little except that another shard is involved.

And we have Trellian faceless immortals. Who has that power?

1. Lightweavers from Yolen
2. Lightweavers from Roshar
3. The Returned

In fact the returned fit best as they change physically. So how about we take this legend literally? Trell is the brother of Nalt, whom Nalthis is named after, and Edgli.
We also have Miles Hundredlives involved with Trell, who healed, some argue, beyond the point his feruchemy should have allowed. Who has the best healing in the Cosmere? Actually Endowment in form of divine breaths - Stormlight or, presumably, feruchemical gold would not have healed Susebron, as his mutilation was decades old.

If you had siblings and were a shard, would you just let them die from old age? I guess the answer would generally be negative. So Trell became a Returned and is acting as Endowment's agent.

[Leyrann]

37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Trell and Nalt were brothers. (According to Sazed in The Final Empire). Nalt points toward Nalthis.

We also have the thing with the red eyes, which means relatively little except that another shard is involved.

And we have Trellian faceless immortals. Who has that power?

1. Lightweavers from Yolen
2. Lightweavers from Roshar
3. The Returned

In fact the returned fit best as they change physically. So how about we take this legend literally? Trell is the brother of Nalt, whom Nalthis is named after, and Edgli.
We also have Miles Hundredlives involved with Trell, who healed, some argue, beyond the point his feruchemy should have allowed. Who has the best healing in the Cosmere? Actually Endowment in form of divine breaths - Stormlight or, presumably, feruchemical gold would not have healed Susebron, as his mutilation was decades old.

If you had siblings and were a shard, would you just let them die from old age? I guess the answer would generally be negative. So Trell became a Returned and is acting as Endowment's agent.

Nalt and Nalthis, to me, don't seem related. Keep in mind that "th" is a different sound from "t"; just one that's depicted in a similar way in English. In Greek, for example, there's tau and theta to denote them. Brandon is aware of this, as the women's script (Alethi) has denotes th different from t. On top of that, an argument can be made for "that's not how language works", plus Nalt does not appear in Trellism, only in Trelagism.

And then there's one last thing. We know Warbreaker plays relatively short before Stormlight Archive. I'm not sure how long before, but I do know that it plays shorter before it than any other book in the Cosmere, so it plays after Mistborn Era 1. If I remember correctly from Warbreaker (it's been a while since I read it though) the First Returned appeared some 600 years before the story plays. That would place the First Returned somewhere during the Final Empire, and therefore well after Trelagism.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Leyrann

[+Oltux72]

57 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Nalt and Nalthis, to me, don't seem related. Keep in mind that "th" is a different sound from "t"; just one that's depicted in a similar way in English. In Greek, for example, there's tau and theta to denote them. Brandon is aware of this, as the women's script (Alethi) has denotes th different from t. On top of that, an argument can be made for "that's not how language works", plus Nalt does not appear in Trellism, only in Trelagism.

And then there's one last thing. We know Warbreaker plays relatively short before Stormlight Archive. I'm not sure how long before, but I do know that it plays shorter before it than any other book in the Cosmere, so it plays after Mistborn Era 1. If I remember correctly from Warbreaker (it's been a while since I read it though) the First Returned appeared some 600 years before the story plays. That would place the First Returned somewhere during the Final Empire, and therefore well after Trelagism.

"t" and "th" are related sounds though. All you need is a rule for the language to realize word final th as t. Or th only before vowel. Or indeed to argue that Warbreaker is centuries later and a sound change happened.
As for the first Returned, Edgli would not return her brother in public, would she?

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And we have Trellian faceless immortals. Who has that power?

1. Lightweavers from Yolen
2. Lightweavers from Roshar
3. The Returned

Didn't the Trellian Faceless Immortal animate a dead body?  I don't think either Lightweavers (either variant) or Returned have that ability.  

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Didn't the Trellian Faceless Immortal animate a dead body?  I don't think either Lightweavers (either variant) or Returned have that ability.  

That's my opinion (The Set's Immortals are Svrakiss). 

But whether you think their shape-shifting, illusions, possessing people, or animating corpses, it's all speculation. 

Although if it is an illusion, the "red eyes" are absolutely meaningless. 

[+Oltux72]

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Although if it is an illusion, the "red eyes" are absolutely meaningless

You'd need to ask why they display red eyes, even though they would not need to.