Leyrann

Trell is not Autonomy

156 posts in this topic

I think Dominion and Devotion's Investiture is too jacked up to separate at this point, isn't it?  It's locked in the Cognitive Realm, basically an ongoing supernova.  I'd figure they were to intermingled to be separated.  

 

However, Sazed took up both Preservation and Ruin.  Why couldn't someone else find a way to take up both Devotion and Dominion?

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1 hour ago, Draginon said:

@Yata Isn't the Skaze part of Skai/Dominion's power? What if someone bound them all together again to recreate either Skai or Dominion in a new body? Heck it could be done if you combine the different Dor systems.

Skaze are pieces of Dominion's power who reached self awareness yes, but they are also all together a tiny fraction of Dominion's power...I will be truly surprised if the whole Skaze comunity on Sel is enough to reach the 1% of Dominion's Investiture.

Again I will invite you to consider as they actually are.... the Vessel and the Shard as different entities. Skai the former Vessel of Dominion died, killed by Odium and reached the Beyond. The Shard he held was instead Splintered but as the power can't be destroyed but only spread.

Regardless if you manage or not too rebuild Dominion, putting together all the pieces that compose at the moment the Skaze and the Dor.... Skai would remain dead.

@Tglassy there is a great difference here. Ruin and Preservation also if without a Vessel were whole Shards two cohesive wells of powers.

The Dor is instead a mix of two Splintered Shards... So a lot more like billions of mini wells of powers.

Edited by Yata
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2 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Part of me wonders whether Brandon at some point hyper-covertly identified one of the remaining Shards in either a WOB or one of his books, and Trell is actually that Shard. Then technically it would be a Shard we ‘know’.

That would be a fun trick, and I think there's a low but significant chance that this will actually be the case. 

I'm strongly sympathetic to the theory that Autonomy is a red herring; we know Autonomy regularly messes around on other Shardworlds like a hypocrite, but you really have to stretch the interpretation of it's Intent to explain what Trell is doing if it is Autonomy. Likewise, I got the impression that Odium is trapped on Roshar and couldn't start influencing Scadrial from afar until he wins there.

Edited by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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Agreed. I’ve said before that ‘Autonomy’ seems to in many ways be acting much more like I would expect Dominion to act. 

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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1 hour ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

but you really have to stretch the interpretation of it's Intent to explain what Trellium is doing if it is Autonomy. 

She is freeing the people from the tyranny of other Shards, providing them with their own autonomy (from everyone except her).  

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27 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

She is freeing the people from the tyranny of other Shards, providing them with their own autonomy (from everyone except her).  

Then how does that fit with "Trell's" decision at the end of BoM to just wipe out all life on Scadrial? Killing someone is just about the most radical restriction of their Autonomy imaginable. 

Unless the various avatars of Autonomy all interpret their Intent differently, and are using the "Trell" identity at various times. That would make your theory more plausible, but we have no textual evidence to support it.

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39 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

She is freeing the people from the tyranny of other Shards, providing them with their own autonomy (from everyone except her).  

The ‘everyone except her’ part is what makes the entire thing fall apart. It’s a textbook special pleading fallacy of reasoning.

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46 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

The ‘everyone except her’ part is what makes the entire thing fall apart. It’s a textbook special pleading fallacy of reasoning.

Except it's not as has been presented multiple times in multiple threads. 

The intents are not self directed. 

Quote

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

source

If she views the Shards as as domineering factors than she wishes to free people from them, and her hypocrisy is a byproduct of the nature of intent. 

54 minutes ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Then how does that fit with "Trell's" decision at the end of BoM to just wipe out all life on Scadrial? Killing someone is just about the most radical restriction of their Autonomy imaginable.

Scadrial is the only place that I can see this action playing out. If she views the humans there as an extention of R&P due to their creation by the Shards, their inevitable expansion into the Greater Cosmere is the expansion of R&P's influence. 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Scadrial is the only place that I can see this action playing out. If she views the humans there as an extention of R&P due to their creation by the Shards, their inevitable expansion into the Greater Cosmere is the expansion of R&P's influence. 

Do we know for a fact that this is the case, that Scadrial is the only Shardworld where the Shards created humans from a Yolish template rather than having literal humans from Yolen migrate there? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we have enough info to say that definitively.

Edited by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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6 minutes ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Do we know for a fact that this is the case, that Scadrial is the only Shardworld where the Shards created humans from a Yolish template rather than having literal humans from Yolen migrate there? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think we have enough info to say that definitively.

It is the only one we have proof of, which is why I said it the way that I did. I don't believe they were the only ones, but I don't believe this is common either. 

Quote

potterhead42

On Scadrial, humans were created as a result of the deal between Preservation and Ruin. But what about the rest of the humans on the other worlds of the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

It's split. Some predate the shattering; others were created. The humans that existed before were always a model, which is why they're so similar to one another.

source

 

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57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except it's not as has been presented multiple times in multiple threads. 

The intents are not self directed. 

If she views the Shards as as domineering factors than she wishes to free people from them, and her hypocrisy is a byproduct of the nature of intent. 

Scadrial is the only place that I can see this action playing out. If she views the humans there as an extention of R&P due to their creation by the Shards, their inevitable expansion into the Greater Cosmere is the expansion of R&P's influence. 

I know it’s not self-directed, I never said it was. It’s directed in this case TO the humans. It’s their autonomy that she’s violating, not her own. Though admittedly she’s arguably doing that as well, but that’s not my point here.

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Autonomy as an intent in my opinion, can go one of two ways. It's either the most free to do as it wishes, or the most limited. 

All actions, no matter how small, both impinge on the autonomy of some things, and bolster the autonomy of others. Depending on which way that is viewed, almost anything can be either justified, or forbidden. 

Give a man a new, wonderful job and you limit his autonomy through responsibility and demands on his time. Kill a woman's family and free her from their needs and desires. Twisted views that are both misguided, and technically true. 

In contrast, if Autonomy must hold that the autonomy of all beings is sacred and cannot be impinged upon, then she can do nothing, as all actions will impinge on the autonomy of someone in some way. Even the act of aiding someone is technically invalidated as it means they are not self-sufficient. 

The fact that we know Autonomy likes to interfere in other worlds makes me think that the autonomy of individuals can't mean much. 

Edited by Calderis
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@Calderis I’m curious, what exactly do you mean by ‘self-directed in this context? Because to me, ‘self-directed’ means applying the intent to the Shard itself, that is, Ruin doesn’t have to destroy itself, Preservation doesn’t have to preserve itself, Odium isn’t driven to hate itself, and in Autonomy’s case, she doesn’t need to preserve her own autonomy. But you seem to be using the term to mean something very different with respect to Autonomy, and I think that may be why you and I are always talking past each other on this particular issue, because I completely agree that shardic intents aren’t self-directed in the sense of Ruin and Preservation and Odium, but I don’t think I do with respect to how you seem to be defining it with regards to Autonomy, and I think it may be a misapplication of the term.

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@Fanghur Rahl I think that the intent of Autonomy was the part of Adonalsium that wished to see its living creations grow and be independent the part that believed that interfering to much would stifle their growth.

As such, I think that Autonomy's main drive is autonomy from the influence of the Shards. I don't think the intent cares about general freedom or servitude or self-sufficiency to nearly the extent that it views the need for freedom from the influence of the Shards themselves. 

So when I say the intent isn't self directed, I mean that what she's doing on Scadrial is a direct result of her intent, and that the hypocrisy of her actions are the same. She doesn't see that what she's doing is as bad or worse than the others, because she can't. 

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I'm just so happy to finally see a discussion that doesn't have Trell being Autonomy. I never liked the theory (although that honestly might be because I thought it was obviously Odium and was embarrassed to see how unlikely that was). I haven't looked into it exactly, but I think(?) continuity issues with how the timeline is set makes Odium an unlikely candidate. If someone could help me there that would be awesome. HOWEVER, I would mention that Brandon puts a lot of emphasis on the color red as an indicator of corrupt Investitor. That could be a RED herring (haha get it?) but I would guess it isn't (on a side note, I didn't like coming to that conclusion either, the whole "color having to always mean something" debate tends to annoy me). Along those lines, I'll throw in these WOBs for consideration:

 

Quote

 

Haradion Drogon

The Letter implies Odium is allied or at least cross purposes with Bavadin. Is Odium actively allied to any *other* cosmere Power(s)?

Brandon Sanderson

YES.

 

 

 

Quote

 

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

 

 

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I have been pulling for the dark horse candidate ambition is trell. We had SfSitFoH when we got that wob, so if Brandon was being sneaky, it is remotely possible that he might be playing us all.

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11 hours ago, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Then how does that fit with "Trell's" decision at the end of BoM to just wipe out all life on Scadrial? Killing someone is just about the most radical restriction of their Autonomy imaginable. 

Here are my thoughts on this. With the discovery of the Southern Continent and Medallions, technology is about to explode on Scadrial. And we also know there is a planned sci-do trilogy. I think space-faring people are the last thing Autonomy would want as it runs the risk of them discovering and meddling in her autonomous worlds.

Spoiler

Like I’m Sixth of the Dusk with the Ones Above

If I remember correctly, she has cut off access to Taldain. Maybe she views her planets and people as things that must remain autonomous from all others. Therefore Scadrial is a huge threat. (And possibly Sel. Isn’t there a WoB that says they are the most advanced technologically. Could be a reason Autonomy may have aided Odium in destroying D&D like some theorize.)

That being said, I am not opposed to Trell being someone other than Autonomy. I don’t know one way or the other. All the evidence just seems pointed that way for now. 

Edit: Just wanted to add in that the only other likely candidate for Trell I see would be Dominion. But that is a long game plan that leaves us with getting few answers from The Lost Metal. But would explain why the Elantris sequels would need to be done before MB Era 3. (If this is the case, then I have some other theories in my head about other things Dominion would be up to. I’ll see if I can coherently our then together at all.)

Edited by Philomath
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My biggest issue with Dominion isn't even that it's not hinted at. It's that Devotion and Dominion are mixed. Neither should exist anymore, just the Dor. 

If it were fixed, and restored to a proper shard, it should be a dual shard like Harmony, only more so. Not Dominion or Devotion. Not Dominion and Devotion, but a truly homogeneous mixture of the two. 

Quote

Brightlord Maelstrom [PENDING REVIEW]

If you were to somehow use a receptacle to gather some part of the Dor, say there was a way of doing that. And you were to do one on both extremes of the planet. Would it be the same thing?

...Say, you have a container than can contain part of this plasma? ...Theoretically? You do that, taking one part of the planet, say Elantris, seal it up. And then you were to take another one, and fill it up in MaiPon and compare them, would it be the same Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it would.

source

There is no variability in the composition of the Dor. It is one thing. 

Devotion and Dominion should be gone. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

My biggest issue with Dominion isn't even that it's not hinted at. It's that Devotion and Dominion are mixed. Neither should exist anymore, just the Dor. 

If it were fixed, and restored to a proper shard, it should be a dual shard like Harmony, only more so. Not Dominion or Devotion. Not Dominion and Devotion, but a truly homogeneous mixture of the two. 

There is no variability in the composition of the Dor. It is one thing. 

Devotion and Dominion should be gone. 

That makes sense. But depending on what they are called as a double Shard, I could still see them as being meddlesome or conquering. One thing I see them as combined is Zeal. And zealots can be a little crazy, pushy, and scary at times. 

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19 minutes ago, Philomath said:

That makes sense. But depending on what they are called as a double Shard, I could still see them as being meddlesome or conquering. One thing I see them as combined is Zeal. And zealots can be a little crazy, pushy, and scary at times. 

Following in Raoden's embodiment of both, I picture it more as Benevolence, but depending on the Vessel, it could go either way. 

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13 hours ago, Calderis said:

Scadrial is the only place that I can see this action playing out. If she views the humans there as an extention of R&P due to their creation by the Shards, their inevitable expansion into the Greater Cosmere is the expansion of R&P's influence. 

Then why did Trell only decide in BoM to wipe out Scadrian civilization, rather than taking control of the planet? Clearly that isn't because of R&P having made the humans, as that has been true at all times. In fact, the given reason is actually Scadrian technological advancements.

Also note that, apparently, this problem only appeared when the Set did not manage it's play for the Elendel Basin. Considering the Industrial Revolution has been going on Scadrial for a good while now, any Shard should be aware that it is very unlikely for technological progress to stop at this point, so it's clearly about who controls the planet, rather than just the technological advances.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Fanghur Rahl I think that the intent of Autonomy was the part of Adonalsium that wished to see its living creations grow and be independent the part that believed that interfering to much would stifle their growth.

As such, I think that Autonomy's main drive is autonomy from the influence of the Shards. I don't think the intent cares about general freedom or servitude or self-sufficiency to nearly the extent that it views the need for freedom from the influence of the Shards themselves. 

So when I say the intent isn't self directed, I mean that what she's doing on Scadrial is a direct result of her intent, and that the hypocrisy of her actions are the same. She doesn't see that what she's doing is as bad or worse than the others, because she can't. 

If the intent of Autonomy was the part of Adonalsium that wished to see it's living creations grow and be independent, then isn't what (that part of) Adonalsium thinks "they should be free from me"? That's a direct contradiction with what follows in your argument.

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6 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Then why did Trell only decide in BoM to wipe out Scadrian civilization, rather than taking control of the planet? Clearly that isn't because of R&P having made the humans, as that has been true at all times. In fact, the given reason is actually Scadrian technological advancements.

Because that was a turning point? Control and containment was the original goal. Technological advancement suddenly meant that containment was no longer a feasible plan. 

What is unclear? 

6 hours ago, Leyrann said:

If the intent of Autonomy was the part of Adonalsium that wished to see it's living creations grow and be independent, then isn't what (that part of) Adonalsium thinks "they should be free from me"? That's a direct contradiction with what follows in your argument.

Did you miss the portion of the conversation about how the intents are not self directed? Yes it's hypocritical, and that is completely in line with that rule of intent. 

If Autonomy was what I think it was pre-Shattering, the what was "me" in Adonalsium has become "them."

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Did you miss the portion of the conversation about how the intents are not self directed? Yes it's hypocritical, and that is completely in line with that rule of intent. 

If Autonomy was what I think it was pre-Shattering, the what was "me" in Adonalsium has become "them."

But like I said, that is not what ‘self-directed’ means, or at least that isn’t what Brandon was referring to in the WOB I’ve seen commonly cited in support of this argument. In the case of Autonomy, ‘self-directed’ would mean preserving/promoting her own autonomy (which she certainly does, at least if we stipulate that all her avatars are still ‘her’), it wouldn’t mean arbitrarily exempting herself from her opposition of violating others’ autonomy. This may seem like nitpicking, but these are two very different things.

I’m not necessarily saying that you’re wrong here, only that we can’t conclude that you’re correct merely by citing Brandon’s claim that intents aren’t self-directed in the sense of being directed at oneself (Ruin doesn’t need to destroy itself, Odium needn’t hate himself, etc.). Because like I said, this is an apples and oranges distinction.

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Because that was a turning point? Control and containment was the original goal. Technological advancement suddenly meant that containment was no longer a feasible plan. 

What is unclear? 

And where, before, do we see the Set trying to stifle technological advance and contain Scadrial? In fact, the Set has some of the most technologically advanced devices we see. Phones, for example. The machinery used by the Vanishers. They were trying to reverse engineer the airships.

Knowledge of Southern Scadrian technology didn't make Trell decide that Scadrial should be destroyed. The setback of the Set (no pun intended) and the South and North getting in contact with each other is why Trell now wants to destroy the planet. Clearly it's about controlling the planet, not stopping it from becoming spacefaring.

This also comes back to the argument I made in the opening post, how Autonomy's other worlds do not have any cosmere awareness, while it is strongly implied in the Bands of Mourning epilogue that the Set is cosmere aware, at least to a degree where they know that other inhabited worlds exist and that some people - if perhaps not them - have contact with those worlds.

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Did you miss the portion of the conversation about how the intents are not self directed? Yes it's hypocritical, and that is completely in line with that rule of intent. 

If Autonomy was what I think it was pre-Shattering, the what was "me" in Adonalsium has become "them."

But logically, "me" should have either stayed "me" or have become "us". It's about the autonomy of subjects not being influenced by Adonalsium, according to you. Autonomy is, quite literally, part of Adonalsium. There's no reason why there should at once be an exception if the autonomy is breached by Autonomy himself; that would only be the case if the Autonomy part of Adonalsium had as goal to avoid interference from other sources than Adonalsium, which is the exact opposite of what you theorized.

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1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

But like I said, that is not what ‘self-directed’ means, or at least that isn’t what Brandon was referring to in the WOB I’ve seen commonly cited in support of this argument. In the case of Autonomy, ‘self-directed’ would mean preserving/promoting her own autonomy (which she certainly does, at least if we stipulate that all her avatars are still ‘her’), it wouldn’t mean arbitrarily exempting herself from her opposition of violating others’ autonomy. This may seem like nitpicking, but these are two very different things.

If I'm right, it isn't different things. The Autonomy denoted in the intent isn't about maintaining the Autonomy of individuals, it is about keeping them Autonomous from the Shards themselves. This is even reflected in the naturally occurring magic systems associated with Autonomy, in which users are not given access to investiture directly, but have to work through an intermediary that keeps them secondhand to the Shards power (both the sand, and the Aviar). In the case of the magics, this would be a natural process and not a decision on Autonomy's part. 

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

But logically, "me" should have either stayed "me" or have become "us". It's about the autonomy of subjects not being influenced by Adonalsium, according to you. Autonomy is, quite literally, part of Adonalsium.

And why should it have stayed the same? Ruin didn't. Odium didn't. Preservation didn't. Removing the Shards from the whole that they were a part of irrevocably changed them. 

And as I said previously, if Autonomy is about maintaining the autonomy of individuals, it should be more shackled than even Harmony. All action that effects something impinges upon its autonomy.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Knowledge of Southern Scadrian technology didn't make Trell decide that Scadrial should be destroyed. The setback of the Set (no pun intended) and the South and North getting in contact with each other is why Trell now wants to destroy the planet. Clearly it's about controlling the planet, not stopping it from becoming spacefaring.

What did change? Medallions already existed in the south. The meeting of the magics if not the people was inevitable. And yet something did change. 

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

This also comes back to the argument I made in the opening post, how Autonomy's other worlds do not have any cosmere awareness,

This is not true. We know that Taldain was blockaded from travel for a time. We don't know the reasoning for it. We also know that that blockade has ended. 

Quote

Questioner

Nightblood. He just showed up at the end of The Stormlight Archive--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

--the last one. So, is there a place that's a connection between all of the universes?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is.

Questioner

And it's been reached in The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so I'm guessing you don't know about all of this but there are characters from Elantris that are in Mistborn--

Questioner

Yes. Like Hoid.

Brandon Sanderson

--and all of this stuff. I would say one of the things is that Roshar is a little bit easier to get to than some of the others, but it's not that it has been breached there so much as it's a little bit easier to get to.

Questioner

Yes, I'm assuming it has something to do with the Cognitive Realm but then objects going through the Cognitive Realm is kind of tripping me.

Brandon Sanderson

Hehe… *long pause* There are places in the Cognitive Realm that are somewhat nexus-like, like you're talking about. Yes there are places like that. ...So Roshar might actually be the easiest place to get to in the cosmere, like from planet to planet. Sel is probably the hardest, right now. For a long time Taldain was very hard, but not anymore.

source

 

Edited by Calderis
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