cosmere Making of the Bands (Discussion)

[MountainKing]

Maybe its even harder for non scadrialians

[HSuperLee]

If I had to guess, I'd say being seeded with hemalurgy means that metalborn powers are fairly easy to steal. 1 spike = 1 power. In contrast, we know it would take 2 spikes to make someone an Elantrin, and I believe it's been said it would take multiple to make someone a Radiant.

[Yata]

4 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

If I had to guess, I'd say being seeded with hemalurgy means that metalborn powers are fairly easy to steal. 1 spike = 1 power. In contrast, we know it would take 2 spikes to make someone an Elantrin, and I believe it's been said it would take multiple to make someone a Radiant.

I don't think there is a correlation here.

Simply to become an Elantrian you need both to spike the connection to the area and to spike the actual power.

For the radiants, I don't think you need to spike multiple stuffs.... But honestly I don't even think the Hemalurgy will work at all as Radiants require the Spren approval... So you will need to act as a Radiant regardless

[Isilel]

On 3.10.2018 at 6:18 PM, Calderis said:

 I think that using connection the medallions avoid both issues but it's also limiting. By tricking the spiritweb into thinking that the charge is a part of their own spiritweb, it doesn't need to be placed, but it also means trying to hold another medallion crosses the wires and breaks messes up the whole deal. It's like trying to listen to two radio stations on the same frequency.

 

OK, I am with you that Connection is involved in how the medallions function in some way, though it does seem odd that they don't have a Duralumin component, only Nicrosil.

And that's why I think that if one fills a metalmind while wearing a medallion, the storage created would be tappable by anybody wearing the same medallion. However, if say, a Lurcher produced an iron weight metalmind through wearing a  medallion and then removed the medallion, he would be unable to compound weight via burning that metallmind. If that's the case, then it would be impossible to make a full set of nicrosil metalminds filled with all abilities through medallion juggling, leave alone recharge or create new medallions by using other medallions. This would agree with Alik's statement  that the Metalborn are needed for the medallion production and would also prevent Nicrosil Feruchemy from being overpowered.

On 3.10.2018 at 6:18 PM, Calderis said:

And the blood thing is not as big a requirement as it seems. 

Hemalurgic spikes pretty quickly lose charge when they are not stuck inside a living body or submerged in fresh blood, which the medallions aren't.

On 3.10.2018 at 6:18 PM, Calderis said:

As to the progression of the Metallic Arts, the Bands, and medallions in general are just the beginning. I think hemalurgy is going to be heavily involved, not a limiting factor.

I really hope that hemalurgy eventually becomes something along the lines of a bone marrow donation - i.e. something that could be done without too much damage for oneself once or twice in a lifetime, with Gold medallion (which doesn't seem to exist yet?) healing, but all the WoBs about how it is awful and how Harmony hates it aren't helping.

And now that I think about it, maybe that's the reason why the medallions so far only have 2, or very rarely, 3 abilities? Maybe the southerners are also limited to 3 spikes and 2 abilities are necessary to make a functioning medallion framework, while the other 2 are active abilities accessible to the users (warmth/weight, etc). Then people who make medallions have one inborn Metal ability + 3 spikes and the rare 3-ability medallions were made by a natural Twinborn + 3 spikes. Given the overall scarcity of Metalborn in the South, the Twinborn would be vanishingly rare  - maybe there only ever was the one.

 

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, Isilel said:

OK, I am with you that Connection is involved in how the medallions function in some way, though it does seem odd that they don't have a Duralumin component, only Nicrosil.

Obviously speculation, but I think Duralumin works like Aluminum. Tapping it would make connection to something stronger, so storing Investiture while tapping would increase the Connection of the stored Investiture. So the Investiture is altered but the Medallion doesn't actually need duralumin in it, the same as it doesn't need aluminum to remain unkeyed. 

50 minutes ago, Isilel said:

And that's why I think that if one fills a metalmind while wearing a medallion, the storage created would be tappable by anybody wearing the same medallion.

Unless you have aluminum Feruchemy to dump your own Identity, any storage you make is going to be locked to you. 

50 minutes ago, Isilel said:

However, if say, a Lurcher produced an iron weight metalmind through wearing a  medallion and then removed the medallion, he would be unable to compound weight via burning that metallmind. If that's the case, then it would be impossible to make a full set of nicrosil metalminds filled with all abilities through medallion juggling, leave alone recharge or create new medallions by using other medallions.

I disagree. 

50 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Hemalurgic spikes pretty quickly lose charge when they are not stuck inside a living body or submerged in fresh blood, which the medallions aren't.

Yes. I wonder if that still true if a Hemalurgic charge is "compounded" and stored in nicrosil Feruchemically. (if it's even possible. It's just my speculation) 

50 minutes ago, Isilel said:

And now that I think about it, maybe that's the reason why the medallions so far only have 2, or very rarely, 3 abilities? Maybe the southerners are also limited to 3 spikes and 2 abilities are necessary to make a functioning medallion framework, while the other 2 are active abilities accessible to the users (warmth/weight, etc). Then people who make medallions have one inborn Metal ability + 3 spikes and the rare 3-ability medallions were made by a natural Twinborn + 3 spikes. Given the overall scarcity of Metalborn in the South, the Twinborn would be vanishingly rare  - maybe there only ever was the one.

This is exactly what I think causes the limit. 

Say you have a medallion that grants Nicrosil, aluminum, and duralumin Feruchemy. Give this to a Misting that can burn the spike type you that stores the powers that you want to make a medallion of. The dump their identity and tap connect to...? To create the bonding effect. Burn the spikes and store what's produced immediately in nicrosil. That ho I think the medallions are made... But you get a power per spike... And you have to put them inside you to burn them. 

All attempts at a medallion of four power have failed... Because that requires crossing the threshold that allows for Harmony to intervene. You have four spikes inside you.

Edit: here's the crazy thing if I'm right though, and what makes the medallions even more nuts. 

To burn a spike it would have to be unkeyed. So the spikes would have to have been made voluntarily from someone dumping Identity at the time they were spiked. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Calderis

[Isilel]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Unless you have aluminum Feruchemy to dump your own Identity, any storage you make is going to be locked to you.

But we already know that heat medallions have warmth storage that is accessible to any wearer - i.e. that it is the medallion's Identity that is important. It is the medallion that has the mechanism to fill the storage, not the wearer, who lacks the necessary sDNA. And if the medallions do indeed use connection, as we both think, then it is connection to the maker. i.e. they basically spoof the maker's Identity to function.

Your idea about how F-Duralumin might work for the medallion-making is interesting and plausible .

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 I wonder if that still true if a Hemalurgic charge is "compounded" and stored in nicrosil Feruchemically. (if it's even possible. It's just my speculation)

OK, I see where you are going, but I think that _if_ burning of spikes is involved in medallion production (and I am not convinced that it is), it is only for the purpose of establishing the aforementioned  Connection and somehow making it automatic, like the use of hemalurgically bestowed abilities is for a spike recipient. I can't imagine the rampant spike-burning, that you envision, being either necessary for the medallion-production or feasible in the south, where the Metalborn are so few. And didn't Sanderson  say that burning of spikes is exceedingly painful?

I also don't see why better results can't be obtained by supplying the medallion-makers with respective unkeyed filled storages. IMHO, every medallion-maker has their suit of permanent spikes + their natural ability(/ies) and they have compounders working for them ditto. These compounders are  spiked to have  F-Aluminium and a matched  A/F ability for a given metal.

I do think that the southerners practice culturally-embedded "voluntary" spiking of the aged and the dying (where a refusal would likely ruin their family) as envisioned in Spook's book and that the Metalborn carefully control and manage transfer of spikes between generations.

 

[Calderis]

47 minutes ago, Isilel said:

But we already know that heat medallions have warmth storage that is accessible to any wearer - i.e. that it is the medallion's Identity that is important. It is the medallion that has the mechanism to fill the storage, not the wearer, who lacks the necessary sDNA. And if the medallions do indeed use connection, as we both think, then it is connection to the maker. i.e. they basically spoof the maker's Identity to function.

We do? We know that they have heat medallions provided by the Firemothers/fathers (who are most likely dedicated to filling these with unkeyed heat). They are a people who literally constantly tap warmth in order to survive. Why would they ever be filling a medallion? 

51 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I can't imagine the rampant spike-burning, that you envision, being either necessary for the medallion-production or feasible in the south, where the Metalborn are so few.

It wouldn't need to be. Only for the initial creation of a medallion type. After that, you can just have someone compound the stored hemalurgic charge in a nicrosilmind and produce as needed. 

52 minutes ago, Isilel said:

And didn't Sanderson  say that burning of spikes is exceedingly painful?

Burning a spike planted into a bindpoint and functioning as a part of your own spiritweb, yes. I don't think that's what is happening. 

54 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I also don't see why better results can't be obtained by supplying the medallion-makers with respective unkeyed filled storages.

That would work fine if you could make the spiritweb think it had the ability to tap the storage in the first place. 

 

[8bitBob]

@Calderis Your theory that Medallions do not require tapping is contradicted by Wax.

Quote

“Investiture,” Waxillium said. “This inner ring is nicrosil. You tap it, and it grants you Investiture—turning you into a temporary Feruchemist who has the ability to fill a metalmind with weight.” He held up the medallion. “The iron on this is for convenience, right? You can fill it, but so long as you’re tapping the Investiture, you could touch any source of iron and turn it into a metalmind.”

“You know much about this, Mysterious One,” Allik said. “You are wise and—”

“I learn quickly,” Waxillium said, glancing at Marasi. She nodded for him to continue. This was fascinating … but the Metallic Arts was not one of her areas of expertise. Waxillium had a passion for it though. “What’s this other ring built into the medallion?”

“That grants the warmth,” Allik said. “It is a grand combination—two attributes, from separate rings. Took us long to make these work, yah? The one I wear now, also grants two. Weight and Connection. I’ve seen medallions with three. Twice in my life only. Every attempt at four has failed.”

Wax is just theorizing and Allik could either not know enough to tell he's wrong or is misleading him, but the in universe assumption is that medallions still require tapping to function. At the very least, no one jumps in and says, "Actually, you know what, I don't think I'm tapping the Nicrosil, Wax. That's weird." Maybe there's something going on to make tapping the Nicrosil automatic, or maybe Sanderson just didn't describe it, but I've not seen anything that convinces me that the stores of Nicrosil aren't drained.

The idea that the lack of description for tapping Nicrosil implies something more is interesting, but by no means does it guarantee there's more going on there, or that using medallions doesn't still somehow drain the Nicrosil stores. Personally, I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't drained, but we can't really say for sure until Lost Metal.

Edited October 7, 2018 by 8bitBob

[Calderis]

40 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

@Calderis Your theory that Medallions do not require tapping is contradicted by Wax.

No. It's not. 

Wax makes an assumption. He is the only one not using a medallion in that ship. Wayne, the only other feruchemist aboard, is conspicuously, not involved in the conversation. Allik does not contradict him. But Allik doesn't openly contradict him on anything. 

Marasi's viewpoint with the medallion tells me everything I think needs to be shown. She doesn't tap anything. She just fills the Iron. I don't believe fr a second that it "automatically taps" because Feruchemy does not work that way. 

[8bitBob]

Just now, Calderis said:

No. It's not. 

Wax makes an assumption. He is the only one not using a medallion in that ship. Wayne, the only other feruchemist aboard, is conspicuously, not involved in the conversation. Allik does not contradict him. But Allik doesn't openly contradict him on anything. 

Marasi's viewpoint with the medallion tells me everything I think needs to be shown. She doesn't tap anything. She just fills the Iron. I don't believe fr a second that it "automatically taps" because Feruchemy does not work that way. 

Absence of something isn't proof of another thing. There are infinite explanations for why tapping the Nicrosil wasn't described, up to and including Sanderson just not bothering to write it in. By all means, discuss your theory and reasons, but treating it as fact and using it as proof that medallions don't consume Investiture stores isn't right.

[Calderis]

37 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

Absence of something isn't proof of another thing. There are infinite explanations for why tapping the Nicrosil wasn't described, up to and including Sanderson just not bothering to write it in. By all means, discuss your theory and reasons, but treating it as fact and using it as proof that medallions don't consume Investiture stores isn't right.

It is just a theory, and I've never said otherwise. We have no proof of how the medallions work. 

But no, I don't think Brandon just overlooked the nicrosil. When it comes the Metallic Arts especially, he has been very deliberate. When wax adjusts his wait we're told. Even if it's not explicitly said he "taps" or "stores" we're told he shifts his weight to half or stores a quarter or whatever else. 

The omission of tapping the Nicrosil is either a completely out of character mistake on Brandon's part, or a deliberate showing of the way they function. 

Considering that in both the instance of Marasi's PoV with the iron medallion, and Wax's with the Sovereign's coin, the power becomes available the moment they become aware of what it might be, not when they tap the nicrosil ring, I think it is completely intentional. 

Of course it's my opinion at this point. But I'm trying to show textual evidence to support it. And Wax's assumptions are just that, and later countered by his own narrative. 

Edit: to clarify, my beliefs of how the medallions function and are made are purely speculative based on WoBs and mechanics we've been shown. The same with my belief that as a Hemalurgic charge the nicrosil is not drained. 

But I cannot think of a single instance in which Feruchemy was used from a characters PoV in which we were not told it was being used. So on that one, no I think the lack of us being told the nicrosil was tapped, means that it wasn't. 

Edit2: Scratch that, and make it larger. I can't think of a single instance in the Metallic Arts that a person uses any power in their own PoV without it being acknowledged. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Calderis

[Tglassy]

As for Feruchemists in Southern Scadrial, I think they’re all Full Feruchemists, not Brass Ferings. They are, perhaps, more rare than in the north, but that’s what I think. The reason they didn’t have knowledge of this is because if you don’t know you have a power like Feruchemists, you have no reason to try to use it. Think about it. Have you ever tried to store your speed in a piece of Steel?  Would you have thought to do so if you had never read the Mistborn books?  I think Kelsior found their natural Feruchemists, and taught them how to create the Warmth Medallions by themselves. The Fire Mother’s and Fire Fathers are what they call Feruchemists. Later, they learned how to make other medallions. 

 

As as to where Kelsior got his spikes, I think he got the initial powers, and his eye spike, from an Inquisitor, and the rest from volunteer Southern Scadrial Feruchemists who were getting old. He would have known about the metals from talking to Spook and Harmony, so he could teach them how to make the medallions, even if he couldn’t himself. Then he teaches them how to use Hemalurgy to preserve the powers over generations, and begins the practice of sacrificing older Feruchemists. I’d imagine all Metalborn are expected to sacrifice themselves at the end of their life, or perhaps if they reach a certain age. Kelsior takes advantage of this, and there you go. 

 

I imagine that to become a Radiant, you would need to kill the Knight and his Spren, granting the connection needed. No oaths necessary, but the strength of the connection, this the strength of the powers, depends on what level of Knight you killed, and what oaths he’d taken. 

[Genesis]

On 04/10/2018 at 2:18 AM, Calderis said:

This is addressed in the book itself. The iron in the weight medallions is only there for convenience.

You were totally correct for what it’s worth: 

WOB from private message on reddit

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Genesis