Jazzy Kandra

cosmere
Making of the Bands (Discussion)

38 posts in this topic

To be blunt, this isn't a theory, or if it is, it's about as well constructed as a house made out of sand. Anyway, due to a recent WoB and discussion on discord, I've decided that to really investigate some issues surrounding the creation of the Bands of Mourning, I needed to post a topic (which Calderis is probably going to attack, hi Cal!).

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Kelsier is bound to Scadrial the same way that a spren is bound to Roshar, because of the level of Investiture and the type and the way it happened. It is possible to get offworld but he does not know what it is.

 

source  

At first glance, this WoB doesn't seem that problematic (and in fact, it doesn't seem to relate to this topic at all). Yes, it basically means that despite holding the power of Preservation and having three hundred plus years to figure it out, Kelsier hasn't actually figured out how to get off-world. Ironic. Such a smart idiot (I think someone might be a bit too "well-connected", if you catch my drift). Anyways, this presents some issues with Kelsier creating the Bands in Era 1.5 (Early Elendel History).

Logistics

Yes, the usual theory is that he just created new spikes (or Marsh) and used old Inquisitor spikes. However, there's a few...well many problems with this train of thought. In the Cataclysm, the Inquisitors killed all the Full Feruchemist. Second, no new Full Feruchemists were born in Era 1.5 due to the lack of Full Feruchemists and that the few Terrispeople intermarried with regular Scadrians, leading to the creation of Ferrings. This, of course, means that logically, there are not enough Ferring children to make new spikes with, plus, despite that Kelsier is a psychopath, he seems adverse to killing children (even noble children, as seen in SH), thus, it seems unlikely that he would create spikes from young Feruchemists...

This is important because, while there are indeed Inquisitors containing Feruchemic powers, these would not, and cannot, contain those powers that were unknown to the Inquisitors in Era 1. Marsh would not know of them either. While you could "supplement" this lack, I suppose, with spikes made from young Ferrings, I think that Kelsier is very unlikely to do this (and I think that Brandon would find this idea too dark, anyways). Thus, we land on the conundrum, to make the Bands, Kelsier probably did not only use spikes, thus a different method was most likely used... It therefore is likely that beyond the eyespike, few spikes were used in the creation of the Bands, thus, I believe that other 

Solutions (or something)

Originally, my theory boiled down to the idea, that, well just because there are no Full Feruchemist on Scadrial (beside Sazed...technically), does not mean there are no Full Feruchemists in the cosmere. Thus, if Kelsier worldhopped, he could have found one of these Full Feruchemists and "helped" them make the Bands. There is more to the solution (like how to construct the Bands with two different people and stuff), but this isn't that theory (which might still be possible, but that's irrelevant). Because of the new WoB though, this seems like an unlikely solution, unless a an off-world Full Feruchemist came to him.

So, since this option is no longer viable (and that theory is died a sad, sad death)...I offer four alternatives, based on the idea that Kelsier was involved with this process (according to this WoB). This means that Rashek did not make them, because he's dead and gone, literally. I do not support any of these options completely, instead, they are merely "ideas" that might work to explain how the Bands were created (without actually describing the process because that's a whole-topic-and a-half).

1. Kelsier consumed Harmonium, somehow, despite its tendency to react when it touches liquid due to its Spiritual makeup and gained the power of Full Feruchemy. Obviously, there are some issues with this idea, however, Brandon has said that it does something, but RAFO-ed what it did exactly (WoB).

And thus, one solution is that Kelsier has burned Harmonium and gained the ability to use Feruchemy, thereby letting him make the Bands all by himself. I don't really like this idea, because being "involved" sounds like he helped. This could, though, just be Brandon being vague, of course...

 

2. Kelsier made himself a Full Feruchemist while he was holding the power of Preservation. Yes, this seems...insane, but there is precedent for this idea. When Rashek grabbed the power in the Well, he made himself into an overpowered Mistborn. He did not eat Lerasium like we originally thought (WoB). Furthermore, Feruchemy comes from Preservation, and is a give that Preservation apparently gave the Terrispeople (WoB). This one is thus possible, but just seems uncool and boring, but because Kelsier is an unreliable narrator and loves to keep secrets (WoB), it can still work, I think. I would just be kind of sad of sad if it's the correct answer...

3. Sazed helped Kelsier construct the Bands. While Sazed did not help Kelsier get a new body (there is a WoB somewhere, I think, but I can't find it, I'll provide it later), there is nothing saying that he wasn't involved in the creation of the Bands, however. This would help solve the problem of "why didn't Sazed help the Southerners" to some extent because by helping to make the Bands (or even, providing Kelsier with the tools, somehow, to make them). Even if his solution of "I can't mess with this direction without messing things up worse, thus, I'll send Kelsier to help instead" wasn't a very good one. This one could work, but one wonders why Sazed didn't just make the Bands himself in this case... Thus, it seems implausible.

4. The Bands were made later on, after the creation of the medallions. I haven't too much to say here, other than that this is what @Calderis supports. I don't believe it's correct, but I would rather Cal provide a few more details on this theory first, than trying to refute it here and now.

Anyway, other solutions are welcome, of course. This topic is mainly for discussion, however, please don't suggest that Kelsier is using Spook's body. That, guys, has already been disproven. (WoB)

Edited by Jazzy Kandra
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My thought process relies on nicrosil being broken. Because it is. It's overpowered and I'm waiting to see how Brandon breaks it, because if you were to give Kel a single additional spike for Feruchemical Nicrosil (and it's not even necessary, would just make it a lot more convenient) he could make the bands by himself, as long as medallions were already being produced. 

Kel is a Mistborn, so he can already burn every metal, including nicrosil. So every medallion he were to touch that grants a feruchemical power, he could store that power, and begin compounding it to have it indefinitely without the need to keep the medallion. (without the spike he could still do this, he'd just need a feruchemical nicrosil medallion first to start the process, and need to compound a little to start the ability to store from any other medallion he receives.) 

Once he has a storage built from the medallions for every type of Feruchemy... He's a Fullborn for all intents and purposes. 

And honestly, I think that's the real Secret of the Bands. The southerners think it's this insanely complicated feet of work that grants every ability in one metalmind... I think it's a medallion that only grants nicrosil Feruchemy, and all of the other powers are just stored in nicrosil, with the other metals present for convenient storages matches to each Feruchemical power. 

I don't see why the Bands need to be something that Kel arrived with. And unfortunately, as far as a nicrosil Ferring needed to start the whole process... I don't really see any none dark option as far as the medallions themselves go. Whether he made the Bands or not, the medallions had to be made immediately, or the southerners freeze. 

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Is it clear that there were no full feruchemists after the catacendre? Ferrings are born when Terris mix with others, but it seems unreasonable to think that all of the Terris immediately had children with people outside their community.

 

Regardless, at this point I also lean towards the idea that the Bands of Mourning are a nicrosil medallion with nicrosilminds that contain all of the other feruchemical and allomantic powers. To make the bands of mourning you only need a nicrosil medallion and the cooperation of someone with feruchemical aluminum, someone with allomantic nicrosil (not required, but helpful), and any other feruchemical or allomantic powers that you want to include. (And you don't even need the cooperation of other people if you have access to medallions that grant that power.)

Edited by LiquidBlue
autocorrect changed nicrosil to necrosis, and the first time around I only fixed it to necrosil
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2 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

Is it clear that there were no full feruchemists after the catacendre? Ferrings are born when Terris mix with others, but it seems unreasonable to think that all of the Terris immediately had children with people outside their community.

Yes. Ruin's controlled inquisitors had slaughtered the rest of the Synod to gain more powers. At the time of his ascension, Sazed was the last living Feruchemist. He shouldn't have been the last ever though. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twenty-Two

The Last Feruchemist?

Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist. The Lord Ruler tried for a long time to breed Feruchemy out of the population, and it's highly unlikely that now the power would simply vanish because the living Feruchemists were killed. The genetic trait is still there, suppressed in the population, but it would eventually resurface.

That's not to say that the loss of the Synod wasn't a blow. That many living Feruchemists suddenly killed would wipe out a large segment of the population who could have bred Feruchemy true. However, the fact that many of the Synod were eunuchs made their usefulness in that regard less important.

Remember, however, that Sazed is struggling with depression. It's easier for him to see things in a depressing light than it is to see them in a positive light.

source

Tindwyl's years spent earning her Era 2 title of "The Mother of Terris" should have ensured that there were others. 

Edited by Calderis
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I find it interesting that in less than 3 years since Bands of Mourning came out, fans have create numerous theories on how the Bands could be recreated. It makes me think that it's inevitable that Scandrians will eventually be able to mass produce them. Essentially, I imagine that eventually Scandrians will be seen as the Kryptonians of the Cosmere, with every person having immense power.

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You know, when the Lord Ruler brought the Southerners to their location while using them as a control group, it is very possible some of them had Terris blood and therefore they could have produced Feruchemists.

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3 hours ago, BitBitio said:

You know, when the Lord Ruler brought the Southerners to their location while using them as a control group, it is very possible some of them had Terris blood and therefore they could have produced Feruchemists.

It's possible, but I doubt it.

The Lord Ruler was VERY careful when it came to feruchemy, I think he would have ensured all the Terris people were on his continent.

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5 hours ago, Jace21 said:

It's possible, but I doubt it.

The Lord Ruler was VERY careful when it came to feruchemy, I think he would have ensured all the Terris people were on his continent.

And yet, they clearly have Ferrings now. It's possible that even if he made sure all the Terris people were in the north, they still had latent Feruchemy in the south.

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Terris or no Terris, all of the Metallic Arts are seeded in Scadrians. 

Quote

Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

source

 

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I've seen the WoB before but I still have issues with it. 

Rashek deliberately manipulated the Terris population and Noble culture to avoid anyone being able to challenge him. I cant see him leaving the possibility open, however small, for a rival from the south.

My only consolation is that "seeds of the three metallic arts" still leaves wiggle room for Feruchemy not to manifest there.

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44 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I've seen the WoB before but I still have issues with it. 

Rashek deliberately manipulated the Terris population and Noble culture to avoid anyone being able to challenge him. I cant see him leaving the possibility open, however small, for a rival from the south.

My only consolation is that "seeds of the three metallic arts" still leaves wiggle room for Feruchemy not to manifest there.

Pretty sure that means it's the latent ability that every Scadrian has towards them... Which means that without allomantic genes to create Ferrings, and no infusion of whatever granted the Terris Feruchemy to begin with, I doubt you're going to see any full feruchemists manifest naturally. 

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If I had to guess, the Terris probably had Feruchemy due to having a large amount of Connection to both Preservation and Ruin, maybe as a result of worshiping/remembering them directly. If that is the case, then certainly the level of Connection in a population could have changes over the millennia that Rashek ruled for, and then the 300 years after Harmony. Actually, I guess after Harmony, Feruchemical ability would just be linked to how much Connection you have to Harmony. But that's all just random guesses.

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On 22.9.2018 at 5:27 AM, Calderis said:

My thought process relies on nicrosil being broken. Because it is. It's overpowered and I'm waiting to see how Brandon breaks it, because if you were to give Kel a single additional spike for Feruchemical Nicrosil (and it's not even necessary, would just make it a lot more convenient) he could make the bands by himself, as long as medallions were already being produced. 

Well, but we know that only heat medallions were produced while he lived in the South - all the others were invented later. Also there is the problem where all the southern Ferrings suddenly came from. Sure, the Mists after the Well was filled would have produced some Allomancers for them, but the Terris had been the only people who developed Feruchemy "naturally". I.e. Kelsier already needed the means to create Nicrosil and Brass Ferrings among the southeners in sufficient numbers to ensure that everybody could have life-saving heating medallions. So, he probably made himself a Fullborn, as long as he was somehow making Ferrings anyway.

I also don't necessarily agree that nicrosil is all that overpowered - in fact, even the Bands themselves allowed Our Heroes, what? To defeat maybe 50 or so people and pull down one airship? And that already exhausted a lot of storages. That's hardly the ultimate power that they were touted to be. And who knows how much effort it will take to re-fill them, if it is even possible without excissors and a full Feruchemist.

Anyway, I hope that limits to nicrosil use are soft ones - i.e. that certain abilities are more easily stored than others and that medallions for some are more difficult to make, and also because the strength of both A-Nicrosil and F-Nicrosil available determines how much time is required to compound and store them. What it is more, it should be difficult to learn to apply some of the stored abilities skillfully without the instinctive understanding of a natural user - that, and the necessity to juggle all the storages should preclude people from going Fullborn through artificial means even for a short amount of time that the Bands provided. 

I'd really love for a "gadgeteer" using a careful mix of Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities to be possible. It is a bit frustrating that so far in Mistborn series the really cool stuff was limited to people who won genetic lotteries to become Mistborn/Feruchemists/Twinborn. It would be nice if hard work and clever use of equipment could compensate at least somewhat.

 

On 22.9.2018 at 5:27 AM, Calderis said:

And honestly, I think that's the real Secret of the Bands. The southerners think it's this insanely complicated feet of work that grants every ability in one metalmind... I think it's a medallion that only grants nicrosil Feruchemy, and all of the other powers are just stored in nicrosil, with the other metals present for convenient storages matches to each Feruchemical power. 

 But that's what _all_ the medallions are! And still, there is a barrier of 3 abilities per medallion max. 

On 22.9.2018 at 5:27 AM, Calderis said:

 And unfortunately, as far as a nicrosil Ferring needed to start the whole process... I don't really see any none dark option as far as the medallions themselves go. Whether he made the Bands or not, the medallions had to be made immediately, or the southerners freeze. 

I don't see how "dark" options could even be available to him. Sazed was the last living Feruchemist.

On 24.9.2018 at 0:14 PM, HSuperLee said:

If I had to guess, the Terris probably had Feruchemy due to having a large amount of Connection to both Preservation and Ruin, maybe as a result of worshiping/remembering them directly.

Or maybe because both Shardpools were located in their territory and relatively close together? People living near them were likely permeated by heightened investiture over generations.

On 24.9.2018 at 0:14 PM, HSuperLee said:

Actually, I guess after Harmony, Feruchemical ability would just be linked to how much Connection you have to Harmony.

Yea, there should be an uptick in Feruchemical abilities among population, really, with Harmony's mixed Mists and no part of both shards being locked away. I understand and welcome that Sanderson wants to promote mechanical access to Metallic arts, but it makes no sense that Ferring abilities aren't more widespread.

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21 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Well, but we know that only heat medallions were produced while he lived in the South - all the others were invented later.

We know that those were started immediately to grant survival to the southerners. We don't know anything about the timeframe of other medallion types. Hey could have been made concurrently, and I see no reason why they wouldn't have been. 

23 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I also don't necessarily agree that nicrosil is all that overpowered - in fact, even the Bands themselves allowed Our Heroes, what? To defeat maybe 50 or so people and pull down one airship? And that already exhausted a lot of storages. That's hardly the ultimate power that they were touted to be. And who knows how much effort it will take to re-fill them, if it is even possible without excissors and a full Feruchemist.

Compounding makes that simple. If you can tap, you can store. 

24 minutes ago, Isilel said:

But that's what _all_ the medallions are! And still, there is a barrier of 3 abilities per medallion max. 

No. They aren't. The nicrosil in the weight medallions is never tapped. They realize they are holding a metalmind and have the ability to draw on it, but they only ever store or tap the iron, not the nicrosil. Feruchemy doesn't work that way. You have to consciously tap them. It's this fact that makes me believe what's in the nicrosil isn't a feruchemical charge to begin with. 

26 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I don't see how "dark" options could even be available to him. Sazed was the last living Feruchemist.

That's exactly why only dark options are available. To gain spikes with feruchemical abilities means waiting for new Feruchemists to be born, or finding old Inquisitor spikes. Hopefully it's the second option. 

 

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11 hours ago, Calderis said:

 We don't know anything about the timeframe of other medallion types.

 

Alik said that all the other medallions were invented after the Sovereign had left. And judging by the lack of certain types of potentially very useful medallions among those the explorer crew possessed, they may not have learned how to store some of the Metal abilities in them still - like health. Which further suggests that there are tricks to each individual type of medallion, rather than "one size fits all" approach that you propose.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Compounding makes that simple. If you can tap, you can store. 

First of all, from the evidence before us I strongly suspect that some abilities are more easily stored than others. And then, there is such thing as storage efficiency. It is very likely that the medallions don't provide the "end-neutral" balance of natural Feruchemy, but lose a significant amount of attribute/ability being stored. Which is not a problem for, say, weight medallions, because their primary function is to make people lighter and it doesn't matter if only a percentage of weight being stored actually makes it into a metalmind. But it would be for others. IIRC, the Set, who had some time to examine the medallions, didn't think that they could so easily recharge them, even the heat ones.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

No. They aren't. The nicrosil in the weight medallions is never tapped. They realize they are holding a metalmind and have the ability to draw on it, but they only ever store or tap the iron, not the nicrosil.

Of course Nicrosil is being tapped in the weight medallions (and all others) - how else are people gaining the F-Iron to store their weight? F-Iron is stored in Nicrosil, as well as F-Nicrosil that allows the tapping of it. The real question is how the users get access to F-Nicrosil. Oh, and it is the re-filling of F-Nicrosil storage that is likely the limiting factor that requires the actual Metalborn and excissors.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's exactly why only dark options are available. To gain spikes with feruchemical abilities means waiting for new Feruchemists to be born, or finding old Inquisitor spikes. Hopefully it's the second option. 

There is no way that the Inquisitors had Nicrosil spikes, however, since TLR didn't reveal Nicrosil to anybody and likely didn't even use it himself, though he would have known about it.

There is also no way that Kelsier would have tracked down and murdered dozens of Feruchemist children under 10, born after the Catacendre, to get enough F-Nicrosil and F-Brass spikes to start the heat medallion production in the South. That is, if Feruchemy even  manifests that early. And there is no way that the southeners could have maintained and expanded their medallion industry if they only had those spikes, getting weaker with every transfer to the next generation. No, they somehow acquired natural Ferrings in time to start the heat medallion assembly line, after the Sovereign produced the initial stash and taught them how to do it. Alik also told us that Ferrings had been completely unknown in the South previously, and, of course Preservation's snapping Mists couldn't have created them.

There is also the question of where Kelsier got his initial supply of Nicrosil for all of this - maybe Harmony himself provided it? And if so, maybe he also made those southern Ferrings? Or helped Kelsier make them.

OTOH, I expect that the southerners do use Hemalurgy in the way outlined in Spook's little book, since they have so few Metalborn and are so dependent on their continuing contributions.

Their reverence towards their Metalborn again suggests that they remain crucial for the medallion industry and that the process of using the closed Nicrosil cycle via medallions alone like you suggest isn't feasible yet.

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1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Of course Nicrosil is being tapped in the weight medallions (and all others) - how else are people gaining the F-Iron to store their weight? F-Iron is stored in Nicrosil, as well as F-Nicrosil that allows the tapping of it. The real question is how the users get access to F-Nicrosil. Oh, and it is the re-filling of F-Nicrosil storage that is likely the limiting factor that requires the actual Metalborn and excissors.

No, it isn't. 

When the iron medallions are figured out. 

Quote

“What do they do?” MeLaan asked.
“Make you lighter,” the masked man said.
As soon as he said it—as soon as she knew what it did—something inside of Marasi understood. She was holding metal that, somehow, she could feel. It wanted something from her, and she poured it in, filling the metal … the metalmind.
She grew lighter, rising on her seat, the force of her body pushing less on her backside. Telsin gasped, obviously experiencing a similar sensation.

The coppermind 

Quote

different metals. One was silvery. Could that be nicrosil? The other was copper. A Feruchemical metal. Though the pattern printed on the face wasn’t the same, and the coin itself was smaller, this didn’t look all that different from one of the Southerner medallions.
As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap. Wax gasped.

There is no tapping the nicrosil, just the feeling of having the power. With the weight medallions, Marasi fills. She taps nothing. 

With the copper, Wax recognizes it and "As soon as he thought of it—as soon as he knew what it might do—the metalmind started working, and he found a store within him, a reserve he could tap." He feels only a single new well of power.

Thr nicrosil portion of the medallions is not tapped. Contact is enough. Feruchemy doesn't work that way.

Spikes on the other hand do. A spike is placed, and you have a power. Which is why I think the nicrosil holds the investiture from an unkeyed Hemalurgic spike (which if the excisors are anything more than a fancy name for spikes I'll be surprised). I think the medallion uses Connection to trick the spiritweb into thinking that a spike has been placed, and that is exactly why multiple medallions interfere with each other. 

The only time that we ever see nicrosil tapped at any point is the Bands themselves. And yes though stores empty and need to be refilled (which I still think compounding would solve without issue), the medallions themselves, and the portion of the bands that grants nicrosil Feruchemy in the first place though? I don't think those drain. You can't even feel that store to tap it in the first place.

They can only manage to make a medallion with 3 powers... Kind of like how humans are limited to using 3 spikes before there's a major problem... 

So yeah. I think "the bands" are a typical medallion that grants nicrosil Feruchemy. One power. The rest of it is just regularly stored abilities. 

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Do we even know if an Allomancer using a medallion (of their particular metal) is capable of compounding? Have we seen anyone use a metal mind other than the medallion to store the given attribute?

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4 minutes ago, Genesis said:

Do we even know if an Allomancer using a medallion (of their particular metal) is capable of compounding? Have we seen anyone use a metal mind other than the medallion to store the given attribute?

I actually think describing medallions as pseudo-spikes might actually be a good description, in which case, we've seen people compound with spikes.

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Posted (edited)

That’s why I’m asking, if we haven’t seen it we can’t assume they’re capable of it. To even contemplate being able to compound, they have to either be able to store in a seperate metalmind, or swallow the medallion.

Edited by Genesis
Also, do inquisitors use metalminds? Or do they just store in the spikes and burn them directly as they’re touching blood?
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

There is no tapping the nicrosil, just the feeling of having the power. With the weight medallions, Marasi fills. She taps nothing. 

It does seem to happen automatically, but the F-Iron ability is still stored in Nicrosil and needs to be activated somehow. Otherwise why is it part of the medallion at all?

Quote

Thr nicrosil portion of the medallions is not tapped. Contact is enough. Feruchemy doesn't work that way.

Spikes on the other hand do. A spike is placed, and you have a power.

Spikes don't work that way either. They need to be placed in very specific locations on the body and also need contact with blood. But now that you mention it, the mechanism is indeed very odd and somewhat unprecedented.

Quote

Which is why I think the nicrosil holds the investiture from an unkeyed Hemalurgic spike (which if the excisors are anything more than a fancy name for spikes I'll be surprised). I think the medallion uses Connection to trick the spiritweb into thinking that a spike has been placed, and that is exactly why multiple medallions interfere with each other. 

But multiple spikes don't interfere with each other, so why should mulptiple medallions? Not to mention that use of hemalurgic spikes would put a huge crimp into medallion production and feasibility of "mechanical" access to Allomancy and Feruchemy being used at industrial scale, as Sanderson said it is going to be.

Quote

The only time that we ever see nicrosil tapped at any point is the Bands themselves. And yes though stores empty and need to be refilled (which I still think compounding would solve without issue), the medallions themselves, and the portion of the bands that grants nicrosil Feruchemy in the first place though? I don't think those drain. You can't even feel that store to tap it in the first place.

Why wouldn't the portion of the Bands that grants Nicrosil Feruchemy in the first place, drain? As far as we know, Nicrosil Feruchemy works like any other - you store an attribute, later you withrdaw it, and at some point the storage is emptied out and needs to be re-charged. I'd also like to point out the seemingly curious fact that the Bands have an aluminium storage. That makes me think that maybe the Bands worked in  a fundamentally different way from the medallions in that they somehow used Kelsier's identity - stored in aluminium, to give the users access.

Quote

They can only manage to make a medallion with 3 powers... Kind of like how humans are limited to using 3 spikes before there's a major problem... 

 But the "problem" is Harmony taking control, not that more than 3 spikes don't work. It is a completely different kind of problem! Not to mention that it doesn't explain why one can't use several medallions at once, like one can use several spikes. It is not like the southerners fear any kind of intereference - multiple medallions just don't work.

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So yeah. I think "the bands" are a typical medallion that grants nicrosil Feruchemy. One power. The rest of it is just regularly stored abilities. 

This makes no sense to me, because _all_ medallions grant nicrosil Feruchemy, even though it seems like it gets tapped automatically, somehow. So, what's the difference between the regular medallions and the Bands, that the former can only have 3 powers max, and even that very rarely? 

What you propose for the Bands would make more sense if they were made of Lerasium, which anybody can tap and store in without the need for Feruchemical abilities of their own. But Nicrosil Ferrings exist for a reason, methinks.

Personally, I agree that Connection is somehow in play, but I suspect that each medallion also has it's own Identity that gets temporarily "stapled" to the wearer. And if one tries to wear 2 medallions, then their Identities conflict.  In which case, building up a store of personal metal-minds of all abilities via medallion juggling alone may not be feasible, because each storage would be keyed to the respective medallion's identity, rather than that of the wearer.  

There is also the fact that we have only _seen_ the medallions bestowing Feruchemical abilities - heat storage, weight storage, connection. We have assumed that they must at least have Allomantic Steel medallions to start the airship engines, but one wasn't shown on-page. Maybe making those is more difficult.

 

Why, oh, why did Sanderson choose to write sequels to "Skyward" instead of "The Last Metal", as he originally intended?! I can't wait for an official explanation! 

 

Edited by Isilel
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1 hour ago, Genesis said:

Do we even know if an Allomancer using a medallion (of their particular metal) is capable of compounding? Have we seen anyone use a metal mind other than the medallion to store the given attribute?

This is addressed in the book itself. The iron in the weight medallions is only there for convenience. 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Spikes don't work that way either. They need to be placed in very specific locations and also need contact with blood.

They do need to be placed in very specific locations, inserted unnaturally into the spiritweb which creates a hole in the Spiritual's natural defences. I think that using connection the medallions avoid both issues but it's also limiting. By tricking the spiritweb into thinking that the charge is a part of their own spiritweb, it doesn't need to be placed, but it also means trying to hold another medallion crosses the wires and breaks messes up the whole deal. It's like trying to listen to two radio stations on the same frequency.

And the blood thing is not as big a requirement as it seems. 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Would it be possible to make Hemalurgic dental fillings? If there were a mad-scientist dentist?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I've thought about this. I think that would be possible, but for Hemalurgy to really work I need it to...it doesn't actually have to be touching the blood, despite what they think. But I think your average dental filling is not going deep enough...

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Root canal!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*Continues* But yeah, you could make it work.

source

As to the progression of the Metallic Arts, the Bands, and medallions in general are just the beginning. I think hemalurgy is going to be heavily involved, not a limiting factor. 

Spoilered for length 

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In reading about Adonalsium and Odium, I get the sense that it's more related to lerasium and atium than it is to, like, Preservation or Ruin. Because, sometimes it seems like we're identifying Odium and Adonalsium as beings instead of, like, the body of...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it is a little confusing by design. The question is, like, telling the difference between the Vessel who is holding the power, the intent of that power, and the physical manifestations of that power as Investiture or as whatever, these things are confusing. And I did this on purpose. I like that blurring between them. One of the things I did when I was designing the magic for the cosmere, was... you guys know this very easily from looking at the books, I love the ideas of quantum theory, string theory, all this stuff. And even, just looking at quantum mechanics as we understand them right now. And the further you get into the details, the more the rules that you built, everything you understand upon, become blurry. And we live in this world where certain scientific principles, like... I was sitting at a writing group, talking to my friend who's a mathematician, and I'm like, "I really like math 'cause it is objective. One plus one equals two." And he's like, "Well, the further you get in math, the less that actually is true, and the more 'One plus one equals two' is a philosophical statement, not an actual objective truth." And we talked about the nature of, the further you dig into things...

So, I tried to build the cosmere magic... for instance, how the Bands of Mourning work. We are getting away from Step 1, which is, "Metals push or pull." We can get that. Into Step 2, where we are building complex machines out of the interactions between the magic. And we will then get to Step 3, where it's like, we can explain the principles, but you need to be a computer engineer to understand exactly how the computer is working. And I wanted to be able to build to get to that point. With the philosophy of, "What is the power, what is the individual, what is the intent," and things like that, we're kind of going that direction, in a philosophical direction. What does it mean? What are the answers?

Humans like things to be divided and put in boxes, but in nature, these boxes are usually arbitrary, of our distinction. So, I like that aspect of our interaction with the real world. So, the answer to your question is, this is not a question for me, this is a question for philosophers. Where does the intent stop, and the being begin? And what does it mean to have a body? Is the body of the original person that has taken up the Shard, the Vessel, when that drops out when they die, is that their real body? Or is that just the power pushing out something that it absorbed and recreating it, and dropping a copy of it? What is that? What's going on there? What's it mean? How much can a Vessel influence their intent? This is all a question for philosophers, that I'm going to explore in the books, but it's not the sort of thing that you're like...

Does one plus one equal two? The answer is, one plus one equals two according to this proof that we believe explains the universe, but is a little fuzzier than you think it is.

source

 

Edited by Calderis
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11 hours ago, MountainKing said:

How can Scadrialians be seeded with Hemalurgy?

@Calderis

Hemalurgy has not a genetic component and it works with everyone.

Probably Brandon was just loosely speaking there or simply if you consider Scadrial alone without the rest of the Cosmere... That sentence makes sense

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Maybe it's easier for them to figure out the bindpoints.

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24 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Maybe it's easier for them to figure out the bindpoints.

All the books ' evidences say otherwise.

As almost no progresses were made by the Steel canton in a millennium

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